Domestic park attendance down 4% in Q3

[mshanson3121]

Yep the wallet voting came....for some.

Yup. We've just decided to post pone our trip until 2018 or 2019. Decided for the amount of money it costs, we'd rather wait till SWL and TSL are done. I imagine we're not the only ones doing so.

 

[HappyGrape]

Take into account all the stuff they have to pay for. There's Shanghai, two Star Wars lands and the rest of the expansions in the US. Paris is supposedly doing relatively well these days, but it's still rather expensive to operate, not to mention the major overhaul it's going through. Hong Kong is not doing exactly well. And Disney also has a couple of big flops at the box office this year, not to mention the ESPN deal.

I agree with you though. Disney still reported record profits in the theme park division, and they have 4 films inside the top 5 2016 worldwide grosses at the box office. There's no evident reason behind the dramatic measures that are being taken in order to cut costs. Perhaps they are being extra cautious in the way they are spending money, at least until Shanghai starts operating at a profit, which unfortunately will take quite a while.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-37038555

Shanghai seem to be a challenging project... to put it mildly. Recent article from bbc

 

[mcjaco]

Once again. International Tourism is way down. Brazilians stayed home due to the Olympics.

Really not surprising.

I've been going since I was two. Costs have risen every year, we just made sure to save up. It's still the best experience out there.

 

[HappyGrape]

Yup. We've just decided to post pone our trip until 2018 or 2019. Decided for the amount of money it costs, we'd rather wait till SWL and TSL are done. I imagine we're not the only ones doing so.

No, you aren't. We are going in October. We still don't know if there will be Star Wars Fireworks or Night Time entertainment in AK! 2014 October everything looked like building site.

I had SSR booked for 2017 but cancelled and booked California instead. Hopefully by 2018 some of the new projects will be complete but we are taking a break after this trip

 

[jade1]

Hopefully by 2018 some of the new projects will be complete but we are taking a break after this trip

Yup. We've just decided to post pone our trip until 2018 or 2019. Decided for the amount of money it costs, we'd rather wait till SWL and TSL are done. I imagine we're not the only ones doing so.

It's all in the plan.

My guess is they (WDW) are counting on this from a lot of guests.

Loyal yearly guests have done it all over and over, and will indeed be back for the expansions.

Most will keep going IMO, just doing more as they come online.

Loosing 4% attendance for now, but making even more money while they expand? Can't beat that IMO.

 

[LAS2AMS]

It remains to be seen...
But I'll say it again...Disney parks are at their core a middle class product. If they bleed that segment out...you will not like how they respond.

Also...there is no "capacity problem"

This is a creation wait times being on an app...you never heard this before that.

They have larger attendance, yes...but nowhere near full.

To say that prices control crowds intentionally is fools gold. They're just bleeding you

I'd like to visit this WDW you know of that has no crowd ("capacity problem") problems and embellishes wait times on its apps for some snarky reason.

Technology (Fast Pass, Magic Bands) has been wondrous in controlling crowds for nearly two decades, but so has price: when Hopping was standard on multi-day tickets, legions of crowds would summit to the Magic Kingdom or Epcot when the Studios and Animal Kingdom closed. We frequently stayed at the Contemporary in the second half of the '90s, and it shared a bus route with the TTC from the Studios and Animal Kingdom -- and waits generally exceeded an hour in the evening. Of course, the surcharge for Hopping largely dramatically decreased this.

To say that prices don't control crowds is just pure ignorance -- price is the backbone of any economic system. You really don't think that the increases to the AP in recent years has forced many former AP holders to purchase multiday passes instead, ultimately spending fewer days (and less trips to WDW) in the parks?

 

[rteetz]

I'd like to visit this WDW you know of that has no crowd ("capacity problem") problems and embellishes wait times on its apps for some snarky reason.

Technology (Fast Pass, Magic Bands) has been wondrous in controlling crowds for nearly two decades, but so has price: when Hopping was standard on multi-day tickets, legions of crowds would summit to the Magic Kingdom or Epcot when the Studios and Animal Kingdom closed. We frequently stayed at the Contemporary in the second half of the '90s, and it shared a bus route with the TTC from the Studios and Animal Kingdom -- and waits generally exceeded an hour in the evening. Of course, the surcharge for Hopping largely dramatically decreased this.

To say that prices don't control crowds is just pure ignorance -- price is the backbone of any economic system. You really don't think that the increases to the AP in recent years has forced many former AP holders to purchase multiday passes instead, ultimately spending fewer days (and less trips to WDW) in the parks?

WDW doesn't have a capacity problem. Sure they have crowds but they aren't at or near capacity and if they were we would see Disney use the phased closing.

I completely disagree with you statement that MyMagic+ And fastpass has been "wondrous" for controlling crowds. They haven't. They are used in rides that should have FP which decreases it's hourly capacity and makes the standby longer. Take Spaceship earth or haunted mansion for example. An omnimover based ride like those are should have FP, they should be continually loading. FP makes that standby line longer. Even if crowds are decreasing at WDW they are still higher today than they were 20 years ago.

 

[jade1]

WDW doesn't have a capacity problem. Sure they have crowds but they aren't at or near capacity and if they were we would see Disney use the phased closing.

There's a difference between getting in and having a spot to stand in the park (closing to capacity), and being able to tour a bit easier with somewhat reasonable attraction (FP+ helps a lot with this) and dining waits.

They don't close MK because 7DMT is a 2 hour wait for example.

I completely disagree with you statement that MyMagic+ And fastpass has been "wondrous" for controlling crowds. They haven't.

Is it the term "wondrous? Because it has spread crowds out IMO. Touring in segments is very popular now. Why rush in, why stay late, take afternoon breaks with FP+ set for that night etc.

They are used in rides that should have FP which decreases it's hourly capacity and makes the standby longer. Take Spaceship earth or haunted mansion for example. An omnimover based ride like those are should have FP, they should be continually loading. FP makes that standby line longer.

Not following this.

Even if crowds are decreasing at WDW they are still higher today than they were 20 years ago.

Agreed.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

WDW doesn't have a capacity problem. Sure they have crowds but they aren't at or near capacity and if they were we would see Disney use the phased closing.

I completely disagree with you statement that MyMagic+ And fastpass has been "wondrous" for controlling crowds. They haven't. They are used in rides that should have FP which decreases it's hourly capacity and makes the standby longer. Take Spaceship earth or haunted mansion for example. An omnimover based ride like those are should have FP, they should be continually loading. FP makes that standby line longer. Even if crowds are decreasing at WDW they are still higher today than they were 20 years ago.

Thank you for understanding my - admittedly scatterbrained - points

 

[rteetz]

There's a difference between getting in and having a spot to stand in the park (closing to capacity), and being able to tour a bit easier with somewhat reasonable attraction (FP+ helps a lot with this) and dining waits.

They don't close MK because 7DMT is a 2 hour wait for example.



Is it the term "wondrous? Because it has spread crowds out IMO. Touring in segments is very popular now. Why rush in, why stay late, take afternoon breaks with FP+ set for that night etc.



Not following this.



Agreed.

Of course there is a difference but you can't say the parks are at capacity or have a capacity problem when that's not true. Of course they are crowded but they aren't at capacity.

Has it really spread out crowds though? Sure some ride based on studies saw a decrease in average wait maybe by five minutes or so but an hour to two hour wait is still a long time.

What's not to follow? Some attractions weren't built for FP yet they have it. HM, Pirates, SSE, and other older attractions were not built for FP.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

There's a difference between getting in and having a spot to stand in the park (closing to capacity), and being able to tour a bit easier with somewhat reasonable attraction (FP+ helps a lot with this) and dining waits.

You were never promised this...and never will be. They are still amusement parks...and then have lines.

Seriously...the complaints about crowds/capacity increased tenfold only AFTER the MDE app went into play?

Why? Because it's lazy friendly...touch of a finger on a thing that everybody has in their hand to begin with.

Nobody looked at the tip boards before...most didn't even know they existed...

There were ALWAYS lines for the popular things at WDW. Day one. It's part of what you get.

With all these "capacity" problems...if you really studied it you'd find that wait times are shorter for somethings now...they are more spread out though...so no more walk ons.

I'm gonna give the management credit:

Heres what my magic + was...a massive, desperately needed IT retrofit.

It becomes more clear every day when I'm there. They needed it. But stock watchers wouldnt Accept it. So they (wisely) packaged it as a "guest system" and a "revenue generator"...

It's really neither of those things and they knew it...the fastpass system is really just window dressing. It's a minor improvement on the whole...

...not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But it was a necessity...you have to lie about those things on Wall Street.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'd like to visit this WDW you know of that has no crowd ("capacity problem") problems and embellishes wait times on its apps for some snarky reason.

Technology (Fast Pass, Magic Bands) has been wondrous in controlling crowds for nearly two decades, but so has price: when Hopping was standard on multi-day tickets, legions of crowds would summit to the Magic Kingdom or Epcot when the Studios and Animal Kingdom closed. We frequently stayed at the Contemporary in the second half of the '90s, and it shared a bus route with the TTC from the Studios and Animal Kingdom -- and waits generally exceeded an hour in the evening. Of course, the surcharge for Hopping largely dramatically decreased this.

To say that prices don't control crowds is just pure ignorance -- price is the backbone of any economic system. You really don't think that the increases to the AP in recent years has forced many former AP holders to purchase multiday passes instead, ultimately spending fewer days (and less trips to WDW) in the parks?

You seem mad bro...you need a hug or something?

Again...this isn't basic economy theory...it's a complicate history starting in Anaheim and expanding in Orlando...

Not the university of Chicago

 

[jade1]

Of course there is a difference but you can't say the parks are at capacity or have a capacity problem when that's not true. Of course they are crowded but they aren't at capacity.

OK, then why expand the parks?

Has it really spread out crowds though? Sure some ride based on studies saw a decrease in average wait maybe by five minutes or so but an hour to two hour wait is still a long time.

Well which are you now asking? Spreading out crowds, or decreasing wait times?

What's not to follow? Some attractions weren't built for FP yet they have it. HM, Pirates, SSE, and other older attractions were not built for FP.

You said they "should have" FP.

Either way, the merge line for SSE/HM is way before boarding so how can it matter?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Peter Pan was a near walk on before the original fast pass and has been 50+ ever since.
That's not a coincidence...some of the fastpass retrofits have really slowed the lines/flow.

Spaceship earth being another...Winnie the pooh...lots of examples.

 

[jade1]

You were never promised this...and never will be. They are still amusement parks...and then have lines.

Seriously...the complaints about crowds/capacity increased tenfold only AFTER the MDE app went into play?

Why? Because it's lazy friendly...touch of a finger on a thing that everybody has in their hand to begin with.

Nobody looked at the tip boards before...most didn't even know they existed...

There were ALWAYS lines for the popular things at WDW. Day one. It's part of what you get.

With all these "capacity" problems...if you really studied it you'd find that wait times are shorter for somethings now...they are more spread out though...so no more walk ons.

I'm gonna give the management credit:

Heres what my magic + was...a massive, desperately needed IT retrofit.

It becomes more clear every day when I'm there. They needed it. But stock watchers wouldnt Accept it. So they (wisely) packaged it as a "guest system" and a "revenue generator"...

It's really neither of those things and they knew it...the fastpass system is really just window dressing. It's a minor improvement on the whole...

...not the greatest thing since sliced bread.
But it was a necessity...you have to lie about those things on Wall Street.

I think we are very close on agreeing with all of this.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I think we are very close on agreeing with all of this.

Except you give the app/reservation too much credit for ingenuity...

It think it was a very minor upgrade to mask what they needed to do behind the scenes with fiber optic cable...

But other than that? Sure

 

[rteetz]

OK, then why expand the parks?



Well which are you now asking? Spreading out crowds, or decreasing wait times?



You said they "should have" FP.

Either way, the merge line for SSE/HM is way before boarding so how can it matter?

You expand the parks to spread out the crowds and decrease the lines at existing attractions and such. You also expand when there is a capacity problem. For example the hub expansion was a capacity issue during fireworks but the rest of the park isn't at capacity and if it was you'd see the phased closures.

Spreading out crowds can and should decrease wait times. Is it truly working?

I apologize then I meant they shouldn't have FP. Sure the merge point is before the load but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect lines. When FP came into play wait times at said attractions went up for standby.

 

[jade1]

Peter Pan was a near walk on before the original fast pass and has been 50+ ever since.
That's not a coincidence...some of the fastpass retrofits have really slowed the lines/flow.

Spaceship earth being another...Winnie the pooh...lots of examples.

Such old news. The average guest now waits far less on the most popular attractions, and will gladly sacrifice the 2nd tier as a walk on.

We usually tour peak though, so P PAn with old FP was long gone early as well and never close to a walk on.

And again, its a percent thing.

If 90% use FP+, and 10% wait an hour, the wait time is not 1 hour as posted.

 

[LAS2AMS]

WDW doesn't have a capacity problem. Sure they have crowds but they aren't at or near capacity and if they were we would see Disney use the phased closing.

I completely disagree with you statement that MyMagic+ And fastpass has been "wondrous" for controlling crowds. They haven't. They are used in rides that should have FP which decreases it's hourly capacity and makes the standby longer. Take Spaceship earth or haunted mansion for example. An omnimover based ride like those are should have FP, they should be continually loading. FP makes that standby line longer. Even if crowds are decreasing at WDW they are still higher today than they were 20 years ago.

Let's stop this capacity vs. crowds nonsense. Last weekend I went to a regional amusement "thrill" park and while there was ample capacity, the dozen core thrill rides each had waits of 3 hours or more. Likewise, when the AK first opened, it had plenty of capacity... but very little to do -- and at a price well above that of your local zoo (but I'd bet that most of its visitors during its early years were on Hopper tickets). Crowds are a large determent to many considering a vacation to WDW.

And like or hate FastPass or Magic bands... there's no doubt that on a summer day in 2016 I spend less time waiting in line than on a summer day in 1996, despite a larger number of guests. The daily summer 120-minute waits at the "Mountains" are a thing of the past...

You seem mad bro...you need a hug or something?

Again...this isn't basic economy theory...it's a complicate history starting in Anaheim and expanding in Orlando...

Not the university of Chicago

Nah, I'm just continually amused that you have so much to say but ZERO facts, other than the line 'trust me, I know more than you.' Kinda like a used car or timeshare salesperson...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Park expansion is to sell product...which is where the money is...which they discovered around the time WDW opened when discretionary spending started going through the roof in society.

...Then the gipper told you to buy that Mickey plush...

In the case of studios...those expansions are 100% about exploiting their ip for product.

Disney springs is even better: free money without the messy overhead.

The only real conundrum is avatar...that dog don't hunt.

It's almost like there's a side deal for money on that one...hmmm...


But I think Comcast has ALOT more to do with this than I originally thought a year or two ago...
They are causing major worries in Burbank...I think. They have a clear path to become major players in Orlando now...they've been "nuisance" to this point.