Dogs with Arthritis - Thanks Update page 2

[janette]

We have a Border Collie that is now over 14yo. She's still in good health for her age but she's started to have some problems.

She's due for her checkup and I'm going to try to find a Vet that will do house calls so she doesn't have to go to the office. She's always been a little skittish and now she avoids most people and hates to go anywhere strange. Vet visits have always been especially tramatic for her.

At her last checkup they did say she has arthritis but it wasn't effecting her too bad. Over the last couple of month's we can see her mobility getting worse. She still gets up and around but her back legs don't move well and she falls if bumped or she moves too quickly. She doesn't indicate that she's in pain, never crys or whimpers. Someone told me that the breed tends to have a high pain tolerance so maybe that is it.

I'm thinking that she's going to need some type of medication but wanted some ideas of what to expect before talking to the vet. Also wondering how much the medication seems to help dogs. Will it help her get some of her mobility back? I'm going to try my regular vet first to see if they might come here or what they suggest but I may be talking to a new vet.

Thanks for all your input.

 

[Olaf]

I would ask your Vet about a supplement called Glyco-Flex. It helped our old Samoyed out for awhile. He had to be put down at 16.5, which is really, really old for that particular breed.

Fourteen for a collie is old too. Collies are known for their high pain tolerance. You might want to have her hips x-rayed. I wouldn't count on her getting her old mobility back. At this stage is more about just making them a little more comfortable. There is also a drug called Rimadyl which works wonders for some dogs. It can be poison for others, so you really have to watch your animal.

Good luck.

 

[pumba]

last few months of her life......she was on Rimadyl........it helped her ....it really did...it is very expensive monthly....but our babies are worth it ..arent' they.....when the arthritis was not to bad .....she would not take it of course....but would take baby aspirin.....she did good with that for a while too......

 

[crazyforgoofy]

I give my 11 year old big springer spaniel glucosamine because he can't tolerate rymadil. I give him the same stuff I take......the vet said its fine. He told me that vets used glucosamine early on for dogs before many people took it for arthritis. He said that when people saw how it helped their old pups they started taking it too. BTW, it really helps my joint pain too.

 

[Mary Ellen]

While I can't specifically answer about dogs, I can let you know what our vet said when we had this problem with our Maine Coon, Bibi.

The vet took an x-ray (cat sedated) to make sure it was arthritis, not something else. She wound up taking Prednisone which we usually got from my brother. Prednisone is dirt cheap, but not from our vet. Bibi needed 5 mg and we just cut my brother's 10 mg pills in half.

We were told that if the pills weren't enough then the vet could remove the 'ball' from her hip socket. He said that for cats and small dogs the muscles are strong enough to hold the hip together and the cat would walk normally. Bibi was about 10 when she was diagnosed, and almost 18 when she died and never needed the surgery. You do need to be careful with the Prednisone. This isn't a drug that can be stopped cold turkey.

Some friends of ours have Malamutes (NOT small dogs). The female had hip dysplasia. The vet school at Colorado State did a replacement on one hip, but just took the ball out of the socket on the other. We could not tell any difference in her walk once she recovered. She played just as strong as ever with the male dog.

We understand what it is like dealing with a skitterish pet. Our other cat had to be completely sedated for any visit to the vet.

Good luck.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

I highly recommend Glucosamine Condroitin. We first had tried a prescription medication on our Lab...the vet said if it was going to work, it'd work by the end of 2 weeks. Well, it didn't. So a friend, who owns a kennel, recommended GC, and it worked beautifully. Before using it, our Lab couldn't get up off the floor without struggling; after, he never had a problem.

Good luck.

 

[Girls Scout Leader]

Our Springer Spaniel, Pepsi, fell out of a pickup when she wa younger (no lectures, please) and broke her pelvis. Vet said that for the next 6 weeks we would haveto carry her up and down steps. Gave her Rimadyl. After 2 days of the kids running in and out without her, she got herself up and down alone. Now at 11 ys, she is taking the leftover Rimadyl. After chasing DS through the swamp, she gets stiff and can't move her back end much at all. Now we are using up the leftover Rimadyl with great results. Need a refill soon.

 

[janette]

Thanks everyone, giving this a little bump for the Doc

 

[DocRafiki]

Rimadyl often brings dogs from not being able to get up, to running and jumping. It's much safer than asprin (aspirin? that doesn't look right), but liver should be tested before and during treatment. The liver problems are usually with black labs.

I've seen Rimadyl priced at $1-2 per day. Some dogs only take it "as needed."

Glucosamine/chondroitin/msms (Glyco-flex is one brand) should be given to any dog or cat with any hint of arthritis or even conditions that will lead to arthritis (hip dysplasia, patellar luxations, trauma, etc.) even before any arthritic signs are noticed (because it preserves cartilage and can prevent or slow the progression of arthritis). As said, it has worked miracles for people and pets. It uses a completely different mechanism of action as Rimadyl & usually takes longer to show improvement. Also, severe arthritis won't always respond and requires the addition of another drug like rimadyl or etogesic. If on Rimadyl/etogesic/etc nsaids, they should still take the cartilage supplements (gluc/chon/msm).

Your vet may also want to try a long-lasting injectable NSAID.

Don't dare let the vet give your dog prednisone for arthritis unless nothing else works.

Surgery is out of the question, IMO.

It's always good to get x-rays first to be sure of what you're dealing with. If money won't allow it, I will treat dogs for presumed arthritis. If she requires sedation for x-rays, I personally wouldn't x-ray her if she were my 14-yr-old pet.

I also take glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate, as do 2 of my boxers.

Vet said that for the next 6 weeks we would haveto carry her up and down steps. Gave her Rimadyl. After 2 days of the kids running in and out without her, she got herself up and down alone.

Just because a pet CAN do something doesn't mean it SHOULD. No dog with a pelvic fracture should be climbing stairs until the fractures are healed. Less movement during healing = fewer complications, less pain & less arthritis later.

 

[poohandwendy]

I cannot say enough about how pleased we have been with the Glucosamine/Chondroiton supplement. Our 11 yo Golden Retriever has hip dys and took Rimadyl and Gluc/Chon for the first month, then we weaned him of the Rimadyl and continued with the G/C. It is important to note that they need a few weeks to see results with the G/C. The Rimadyl helps with the pain/inflammation, the G/C helps long term with cushioning the joints (less pain with movement).

Our dog wouldn't go up stairs at all, he now is very mobile and only has 'bad days' every now and again. It is also important to keep the dog at a healthy weight, too many pounds put undue stress on the joints. It isn't easy to keep the weight off when they become less mobile (due to joint pain) but after the pain was relieved, and 'Grover' became more active, the weight came off (he was about 5 lbs overweight, not much but every lb was one more to carry around on painful hips)...Good luck to you and your dog...
wendy

 

[poohandwendy]

Doc,
What bedding material/support is best for dogs with joint problems? Grover always wants to lay on the concrete floor in our laundry room (I think he likes it because it is cool), but for the most part, he ends up on the leather sofa(not our first choice for him, but he is the big baby of the house and sneaks there, LOL). I try to keep the laundry room door closed, or doesn't it matter what they sleep on? It just seems to me that the cold concrete would aggrevate the problem....

 

[WilmaBud]

Another testimonial for the effectiveness of Glucosamine w/ Chondroitin here! My almost-13 yr. old Beagle has hip dysplasia and has had 2 torn ACL's (both repaired) which cause arthritis. She was on Rimadyl for about 1 1/2 yrs. When she was @ 9, she ended up getting hemorreagic gastroentiritis (sp?) from the Rimadyl (not an uncommon side effect). She almost died. After a few months off the Rimadyl, we started her on Glucosamine. She has done beautifully; even my vet is astounded at how well she's doing. You can buy it at PetSmart or a place like it. My vet says the most common error is underdosing, so make sure you're giving enough per day. My dog, Wilma has been on it for almost 4 years and has never had any bad side effects from it. By the way, my husband takes it for his shoulder, and he swears by it, too.

 

[browneyes]

My brother's dog has arthritis. I'll see what kind of med they have him on. I know they give him an aspirin everyday. I can't remember if they give it him for his arthritis or one of his other many ailments (he's about 15-16 yo, he's on seizure meds too).

 

[Girls Scout Leader]

DocRafiki:
Believe me, it was not exacally our choice to let her go like that. Over a day and a half she went through 2 screen doors and nearly through a window to get to where the kids were. She jsut went nuts. Better to open the door. You can't reason with a pet, I'm afraid.

 

[janette]

Originally posted by DocRafiki
Don't dare let the vet give your dog prednisone for arthritis unless nothing else works.

Surgery is out of the question, IMO.

It's always good to get x-rays first to be sure of what you're dealing with. If money won't allow it, I will treat dogs for presumed arthritis. If she requires sedation for x-rays, I personally wouldn't x-ray her if she were my 14-yr-old pet.

Thanks Doc, I was concerned about the x-rays etc. I don't want to have to do lots of test. The vet had to muzzle her last time just to cut her nails. I can't see how she would get through x-rays and other testing without sedation and because it's all so tramatic for her I would be relunctant to do it.

Since they have already noted the arthritis and it is now pretty obvious that her mobility is effected hopefully they will do as you suggest and treat her for presumed arthritis. It's not the money, I just don't want to put her through tests and having to be away from home. Hopefully they will come here for her shots etc and help find something to make her more comfortable.

 

[ebaynut31]

someone mentioned baby aspirin. There is no such thing as baby aspirin. Just think what could happen to your infant if you gave it aspirin.

Anyways, I believe it is St Joseph aspirin (in my area anyways) which is 81 mg aspirin that I have seen vets tell their clients to give to their dogs.

The whole "baby aspirin" thing gets on my nerves. Sorry.

 

[Dodie]

Glucosamine Condroitin is AMAZING stuff!!!

We have a White German Shepherd with knee problems. She had fairly costly reconstructive surgery on both of her knees when she was younger (2-3 years old). Probably stemmed from a genetic weakness/flaw.

She has taken Rymadil for pain occassionally, but we try to avoid that...

The orthopaedic vet put her on the K-9 version of Glucosamine Condroitin after the surgery. It has been a miracle for her! Our own vet eventually explained the exact dosage for me so I could buy "people-version" Glucosamine Condroitin (at a MUCH cheaper price for her, since she takes it every-other-day.

At 8 years old, you would never know how much trouble she had in the past. In fact, my DH has started taking it too - since he had shoulder surgery last year and has had some achiness and stiffness in his joint ever since!)

ebaynut31: I don't know how old you are, but when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, that St. Joseph's stuff was called "baby aspirin" by everyone, including doctors and in advertising. Of course, since then, it has been determined that one should not give aspirin to youngsters, but old habits die hard. I can't even imagine how many of those orange-flavored tablets I was given as a baby/child - but I turned out okay.

 

[KLAIT]

I went to pick some of the Glucosamine and could only find it in the double strength. It is 500mg Glucosamine and 400 mg Chondroitin. My dog is about 70 lbs. Any suggestions?

 

[DocRafiki]

GSL -- I would have suggested a crate and maybe even sedation in your case. If those pelvic bones shift and cause a narrowed pelvic inlet, you could have a serious problem on your hands. I'm glad it worked out for you and your pup.

Poohandwendy -- I have no idea what is best, but it just makes sense that any padding would be better than a hard surface. I know a lot of dogs like hard surfaces, though, especially when they're trying to cool off. Maybe a thick, flat, vinyl-covered pad would be best if that's what they like. They make some pretty hard ones that your dog might like, but that concrete is always going to be cooler, and he'll probably find himself there if he can get to it. I like the idea of the leather sofa, personally.

Janette -- Yes, I meant that I wouldn't put my dog through sedation at that age, for something like that, if you already have a good idea that it's arthritis. (Something with acute onset, localization, or accompanying lethargy would make me want further tests, though. It's something that should be considered case-by-case.)

KLAIT -- The proper doses really haven't been studied very thoroughly, so there are all kinds of different dosages available. I don't know off-hand what is normally given. Maybe someone with a bottle of Glyco-flex, etc. could share their doses. Some dog foods also have gluc/chon in low doses, though I've never heard any testimonials at those low doses.

Ebaynut31 -- Thanks for the heads up. I've been calling it baby aspirin, the 81 mg stuff. I know I've seen bottles labeled "baby aspirin," and I remember getting it as a kid. I didn't realize they had stopped calling it that (or even that it wasn't recommended for babies any longer). I'll have to take a look on the shelves the next time I'm at a pharmacy, so I don't confuse people. No, I don't have kids.

 

[DocRafiki]

OK I just went to the Glyco-flex producer's website to see if I could find a dosage. It was pretty confusing. They have one product with glucosamine and MSMs but not chondroitin, and one with chondroitin but not the other two. I don't know why it's so hard to find a product with all of them.

Anyway, I would figure with going with their glucosamine dosage, which is all that was mentioned. (For over 60#, it's 1500mg daily for the first 4-6 wks, then 1000mg daily. They recommended giving half in the a.m. and half in the p.m. for such large doses.) I'd look for a combination product and judge the dosage based on the glucosamine.