Dog Experts - Am I crazy for buying a CKC instead of an AKC puppy? UPDATE - New ?'s!!

[FredinFL]

Okay.

So what you really need to consider here is "Are you ready to have a dog as part of your family?" Because apparently your parents didn't know how to train a dog and it caused you children, them and the dogs a lot of anxiety and heartbreak.

You don't "get a dog" with the expectation or supposition that it's easy just to "get rid of it" if it doesn't work out. YOU need to be fully aware of the training and work it's going to require. Most dogs aren't just perfect, good dogs right out of the womb. They need to be trained and taught was IS acceptable and what isn't. No one wants to be the Omega, so they need to be taught that IS their position. Otherwise, you will have a lot of trouble. And it won't be the dogs fault.

Puppies bite, snap, push, pull, jump, bark and about 100 other things you may or may not find acceptable. It's up to you and DH or partner to get everyone in the training mode and teach the puppy. They are babies and that's an important thing to keep in mind. Just because they grow fast in body doesn't mean the mind is growing up that fast.

Our boxer started pushing the kids around when he was about 4-5 months old, I showed the girls how to stand up for themselves and they worked it out. He's now a big boy, buy he no longer tries to knock them over and he now listens to them. They, in turn, know he doesn't like being dragged around by his collar and don't do that anymore.

I guess, in other words, what I'm saying is that as important as it is to find a breed you like, it's more important to decide what kind of commitment you are willing to give. If, in the back of your minds, you are thinking "Well, if it doesn't work out, we can always get rid of it" do yourself and the dog a favor and don't get one. With many puppies there will be hair raising days ahead, it's not fair to make them love you and then dump them because they are too much work, and frankly, that's the kind of feel I'm getting here.

If you are bound and determined to try (and I really hope I'm wrong with my feeling of above) my suggestion would be a Beagle, they aren't too big or too small, they aren't (on the whole) an overly jumpy breed, but you would have to exercise the dog. They need to play. Regardless of any dog you choose,you are going to have to walk them and play outside with them.

 

[janey99]

Okay.

So what you really need to consider here is "Are you ready to have a dog as part of your family?" Because apparently your parents didn't know how to train a dog and it caused you children, them and the dogs a lot of anxiety and heartbreak.

You don't "get a dog" with the expectation or supposition that it's easy just to "get rid of it" if it doesn't work out. YOU need to be fully aware of the training and work it's going to require. Most dogs aren't just perfect, good dogs right out of the womb. They need to be trained and taught was IS acceptable and what isn't. No one wants to be the Omega, so they need to be taught that IS their position. Otherwise, you will have a lot of trouble. And it won't be the dogs fault.

Puppies bite, snap, push, pull, jump, bark and about 100 other things you may or may not find acceptable. It's up to you and DH or partner to get everyone in the training mode and teach the puppy. They are babies and that's an important thing to keep in mind. Just because they grow fast in body doesn't mean the mind is growing up that fast.

Our boxer started pushing the kids around when he was about 4-5 months old, I showed the girls how to stand up for themselves and they worked it out. He's now a big boy, buy he no longer tries to knock them over and he now listens to them. They, in turn, know he doesn't like being dragged around by his collar and don't do that anymore.

I guess, in other words, what I'm saying is that as important as it is to find a breed you like, it's more important to decide what kind of commitment you are willing to give. If, in the back of your minds, you are thinking "Well, if it doesn't work out, we can always get rid of it" do yourself and the dog a favor and don't get one. With many puppies there will be hair raising days ahead, it's not fair to make them love you and then dump them because they are too much work, and frankly, that's the kind of feel I'm getting here.

If you are bound and determined to try (and I really hope I'm wrong with my feeling of above) my suggestion would be a Beagle, they aren't too big or too small, they aren't (on the whole) an overly jumpy breed, but you would have to exercise the dog. They need to play. Regardless of any dog you choose,you are going to have to walk them and play outside with them.

As gently as possible, I have to echo Fred's thoughts. Also, it is hard for me to imagine a legitimate breeder that would let a puppy go to a family that has a long history of giving up numerous dogs (even when the parents were themselves children) and has not successfully had a dog in their adult lives.

Funnily enough, the dog I refer to in my above post is a boxer (our third). The type of human intereaction she needs underscores the amount of training and socializing and activity that dogs in general require in order to be good family members. Our dog is just over 1 year old. She has completed three consecutively more difficult obedience classes. She will do at least one more before she begins rally obedience and then eventually agility with my 12yoDS. I work with her every day on obedience, both in planned sessions for behaviors that are not easy to turn into teachable moments from real life, and during our everyday interactions, so for her, there is hardly ever a moment where she is not looking to me to direct her actions or approve an action she is about to take herself. In addition, DS12 does the same with her, and plays with her outside numerous times a day (hard activity). My 3yoDS also works with her, directing her to sit, down, and stay, after which he gives her treats. I stand behind him (he can't see me) and command her with hand signals to demonstrate to her that she must listen so he develops confidence and authority with her.


I'm not saying everyone has to have the same athletic expectations for their dog that we do, but just the basic obedience part takes a huge amount of time to get right, and then endless repitition/reinforcement to make sure it sticks and becomes a way of life for the dog. Boxers, like many other dog breeds, are smart as whips, and if that intelligence is not channeled constructively, they can become "bad dogs" like no others. I work full time plus being a mom, and like everyone else, I am TIRED most of the time, but it is really important to me to put in the time to make having a dog a gratifying experience for our whole family for the as long as that dog could live. Life with a dog can go south really fast if people underestimate the commitment or are not willing to make it.

Jane

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Wendy, I applaud you for your honesty. I will be honest, too.

First, your family's history of "getting rid of" a number of dogs that "didn't work out" is, frankly, concerning. If I were a breeder and heard that, I would have serious concerns about your ability to make a lifelong committment to the pet I'd be entrusting to you (which is how good breeders feel, and one of the reasons I don't breed). It sounds like you and your DH may be different, but I hope some of those old ideas aren't still ingrained in you.

But what if there are problems you say. Well, first, many, if not most, of your problems can be avoided by doing research before you buy, making informed decisions about the type of dog you want and where to buy it, and putting in the effort to be a responsible dog owner.

I, personally, would not recommend a puppy for your family. You have too much on your plate right now and admit you are lazy when it comes to certain aspects of responsible dog ownership. That's ok. Better to be honest with yourself now than to make a mistake and wind up with a dog that you don't like and/or can't manage - or worse (like a bite or an accident in the street that your children witness, etc).

Dogs don't come in cookie cutter molds. Even within each breed, there are profound personality differences. Just because you like a Keeshond (or a Sheeba or a Lab or a Shepherd) doesn't mean, necessarily, it will be a good fit for YOUR family. You HAVE to go by the personality of the individual dog.

Once you get the dog, there is no getting around putting a lot of time and effort into training and working with the dog if you want it to be a member in good standing of your household. Dogs and kids left together with little supervision is a disaster waiting to happen. And almost always, the dog pays the ultimate price - with his life. This is unfair to everyone. You need to train both your kids and your dog to respect eachother and get along, and you need to supervise all interactions to be sure this is the case at all times, for everyone's well being and safety.

Now on to the nitty gritty.

If I were to pick out a dog for you, here's what I would pick.

(Let's forget the breed for a minute.)

Young adult
Sweet
Playful
Tolerant
Strong
Able to settle down

What I would not pick for you

Puppy
Hyper
Nippy
Stubborn
Dominant
Possessive
Aggressive, reactive
OCD/extremely high ball drive

Now when you get a puppy, like children, you never know exactly what you're going to get. There are some signs of personality, but you have to know what they are and pay attention to them. But even if a puppy starts out with a good personality, things like spoiling and mistreating them can change that from good to bad.

Whereas when you get a young adult, chances are very good that that personality has been fully formed. In other words, what you see is what you get.

Here's what I would pick for you: a young adult dog who has been raised with a family of young children but they cannot keep him. They should NOT be giving him up because of a bite, and the dog should NOT have been mistreated by children or anyone else. I would NOT pick a dog that has been abused (for your family; not that I myself would not pick a dog that has been abused, but my situation is very different than yours).

I will let others talk to you about where to find a dog like this and what breeds/mixes might be best. I personally think a friendly Golden Retriever is a great first time dog.

I just also want to add that a) you might consider waiting to get a dog since you have your hands so full right now and b) please, please, please pick up a copy of Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sara Wilson before you do anything else.

FWIW I've had six German Shepherds in my life who had a home for life once we invited them to come to live with us. Anything else was not even on our radar. It doesn't mean we haven't lived through our share of problems with them from time to time, but it did mean we learned from our mistakes, made wiser choices, and learned to work with dogs so that problems were avoided in the first place. In these types of threads it's hard to convey that experience to others without sounding like you're judging or disapproving, etc. But, IMO, it really is key to learn what you're getting into and making it work from the get go by educating yourself and making wise choices. I always chuckle when people comment on how well trained my dog is, as if it just happened. It didn't. What people see is the result of years of hard work and constant training and supervision. Thankfully it's something I enjoy because it also tuckers me out.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

And PS, on the chance that the dog you get does not work out, please don't keep it but tie it out in the yard to live by itself. Find it another home. Living tied outside and forgotten is the worst existence you could impart on a dog.

And one last thought, again, taken from my earlier post.

Having a puppy is like having another baby in the house.

 

[BCV513]

Honestly, it doesn't seem to me like a puppy is right for you at this time. A puppy of ANY breed is hyper and playful and a TON of work. Puppies are harder than babies in many ways!

AKC papers don't mean anything, and frankly, neither do breeds. No dog has every characteristic of their breed, and many dogs have lots of other characteristics. I have a lazy Sheltie. You may get a nippy Golden. Who knows?

I think your best bet is to go to a shelter and find an adult/young adult dog. Who cares what breed it is? Look for a personality that will fit with your family and your lifestyle.

 

[Wendy31]

Okay.

So what you really need to consider here is "Are you ready to have a dog as part of your family?" Because apparently your parents didn't know how to train a dog and it caused you children, them and the dogs a lot of anxiety and heartbreak.

You don't "get a dog" with the expectation or supposition that it's easy just to "get rid of it" if it doesn't work out. YOU need to be fully aware of the training and work it's going to require. Most dogs aren't just perfect, good dogs right out of the womb. They need to be trained and taught was IS acceptable and what isn't. No one wants to be the Omega, so they need to be taught that IS their position. Otherwise, you will have a lot of trouble. And it won't be the dogs fault.

Puppies bite, snap, push, pull, jump, bark and about 100 other things you may or may not find acceptable. It's up to you and DH or partner to get everyone in the training mode and teach the puppy. They are babies and that's an important thing to keep in mind. Just because they grow fast in body doesn't mean the mind is growing up that fast.

Our boxer started pushing the kids around when he was about 4-5 months old, I showed the girls how to stand up for themselves and they worked it out. He's now a big boy, buy he no longer tries to knock them over and he now listens to them. They, in turn, know he doesn't like being dragged around by his collar and don't do that anymore.

I guess, in other words, what I'm saying is that as important as it is to find a breed you like, it's more important to decide what kind of commitment you are willing to give. If, in the back of your minds, you are thinking "Well, if it doesn't work out, we can always get rid of it" do yourself and the dog a favor and don't get one. With many puppies there will be hair raising days ahead, it's not fair to make them love you and then dump them because they are too much work, and frankly, that's the kind of feel I'm getting here.

If you are bound and determined to try (and I really hope I'm wrong with my feeling of above) my suggestion would be a Beagle, they aren't too big or too small, they aren't (on the whole) an overly jumpy breed, but you would have to exercise the dog. They need to play. Regardless of any dog you choose,you are going to have to walk them and play outside with them.

As gently as possible, I have to echo Fred's thoughts from the first two paragraphs. Also, it is hard for me to imagine a legitimate breeder that would let a puppy go to a family that has a long history of giving up numerous dogs (even when the parents were themselves children) and has not successfully had a dog in their adult lives.

Funnily enough, the dog I refer to in my above post is a boxer (our third). The type of human intereaction she needs underscores the amount of training and socializing and activity that dogs in general require in order to be good family members. Our dog is just over 1 year old. She has completed three consecutively more difficult obedience classes. She will do at least one more before she begins rally obedience and then eventually agility with my 12yoDS. I work with her every day on obedience, both in planned sessions for behaviors that are not easy to turn into teachable moments from real life, and during our everyday interactions, so for her, there is hardly ever a moment where she is not looking to me to direct her actions or approve an action she is about to take herself. In addition, DS12 does the same with her, and plays with her outside numerous times a day (hard activity). My 3yoDS also works with her, directing her to sit, down, and stay, after which he gives her treats. I stand behind him (he can't see me) and command her with hand signals to demonstrate to her that she must listen so he develops confidence and authority with her.


I'm not saying everyone has to have the same athletic expectations for their dog that we do, but just the basic obedience part takes a huge amount of time to get right, and then endless repitition/reinforcement to make sure it sticks and becomes a way of life for the dog. Boxers, like many other dog breeds, are smart as whips, and if that intelligence is not channeled constructively, they can become "bad dogs" like no others. I work full time plus being a mom, and like everyone else, I am TIRED most of the time, but it is really important to me to put in the time to make having a dog a gratifying experience for our whole family for the as long as that dog could live. Life with a dog can go south really fast if people underestimate the commitment or are not willing to make it.

Jane

See, I *do* think I realize that a dog is a major commitment which is why we don't yet have a dog. My kids' friends have dogs, our friends have dogs... but we don't have a dog because DH & I have both realized that a dog was not right for our family until now. And I know the majority of the people we know with dogs did not put this much time & effort in both trying to find the right dog.

We do also realize that you can't just get rid of an animal. I knew right away that the cocker spaniel we "rescued" wasn't a good choice. But we kept her. And tried to do right by her. She was with us for about 6 years before she passed away.

The dog we found abandoned in a campground... I couldn't just leave her there! We tried to get the ranger to take her, but he said they couldn't.

We've had our cat for almost 16 years! While we love her, we realize she has issues, but she's also part of our family. When she was younger, she destroyed my Christmas trees each year. For a while, she completely quit using her litter box & decided that the dining room floor was better. The arms of our living room furniture have been shredded. My mom makes comments all the time, "I just wouldn't have an animal in my house like that!" And, each time, I respond, "She's a part of our family. I don't get rid of the kids when they do something I don't like."

If we purchase a puppy, the puppy is with us for the duration of his/her life - unless he/she goes crazy & starts attacking. We realize this, which is, again, why we haven't had a dog. The time hasn't been right for our family until now.

And I really don't think I should be responsible for the pet choices my parents made. My mom is just not an animal person. If it makes any difference, DH's parents never got rid of any of their dachshunds. They were just outside dogs.

If anything, I'm too much of a softie when it comes to children or animals. DH is worse than me. And, yes, the discipline thing worries me a bit. I'm home all day, but I'm not sure I'm consistent enough - which is why I'm looking for an easier/friendly/forgiving breed.

*sigh* DH & I aren't taking this lightly. While it may appear to come across this way, I really didn't wake up one morning w/ a careless whim - "Let's get a puppy!"

 

[Dax]

I can understand where you are coming from...and where the PP are coming from as well..

Puppies are a HUGE commitment, but well worth the time. Have you also looked into the possible health problems of the breed? I own 4 pugs, who are GREAT dogs...big dogs wrapped into a 25lb package...but TONS of health issues, from skin to breathing, to hip issues..are you ready to commit to everything that comes with dog ownership, including training...EVERYONE in the family needs to have a part in training, not just one or 2.

As for the CKC, my first pug, Zelda, was a pet store dog(I know, I know, lesson learned) and she was CKC, ConKC as it was put earlier, and while I was lucky and had no issues with her, she did die very suddenly at the age of 8 in Nov, so who knows what was wrong with her as she died at home in her sleep.

Good Luck with whatever you choose

 

[Wendy31]

Wendy, I applaud you for your honesty. I will be honest, too.

First, your family's history of "getting rid of" a number of dogs that "didn't work out" is, frankly, concerning. If I were a breeder and heard that, I would have serious concerns about your ability to make a lifelong committment to the pet I'd be entrusting to you (which is how good breeders feel, and one of the reasons I don't breed). It sounds like you and your DH may be different, but I hope some of those old ideas aren't still ingrained in you.

But what if there are problems you say. Well, first, many, if not most, of your problems can be avoided by doing research before you buy, making informed decisions about the type of dog you want and where to buy it, and putting in the effort to be a responsible dog owner.

I, personally, would not recommend a puppy for your family. You have too much on your plate right now and admit you are lazy when it comes to certain aspects of responsible dog ownership. That's ok. Better to be honest with yourself now than to make a mistake and wind up with a dog that you don't like and/or can't manage - or worse (like a bite or an accident in the street that your children witness, etc).

Dogs don't come in cookie cutter molds. Even within each breed, there are profound personality differences. Just because you like a Keeshond (or a Sheeba or a Lab or a Shepherd) doesn't mean, necessarily, it will be a good fit for YOUR family. You HAVE to go by the personality of the individual dog.

Once you get the dog, there is no getting around putting a lot of time and effort into training and working with the dog if you want it to be a member in good standing of your household. Dogs and kids left together with little supervision is a disaster waiting to happen. And almost always, the dog pays the ultimate price - with his life. This is unfair to everyone. You need to train both your kids and your dog to respect eachother and get along, and you need to supervise all interactions to be sure this is the case at all times, for everyone's well being and safety.

Now on to the nitty gritty.

If I were to pick out a dog for you, here's what I would pick.

(Let's forget the breed for a minute.)

Young adult
Sweet
Playful
Tolerant
Strong
Able to settle down

What I would not pick for you

Puppy
Hyper
Nippy
Stubborn
Dominant
Possessive
Aggressive, reactive

Now when you get a puppy, like children, you never know exactly what you're going to get. There are some signs of personality, but you have to know what they are and pay attention to them. But even if a puppy starts out with a good personality, things like spoiling and mistreating them can change that from good to bad.

Whereas when you get a young adult, chances are very good that that personality has been fully formed. In other words, what you see is what you get.

Here's what I would pick for you: a young adult dog who has been raised with a family of young children but they cannot keep him. They should NOT be giving him up because of a bite, and the dog should NOT have been mistreated by children or anyone else. I would NOT pick a dog that has been abused (for your family; not that I myself would not pick a dog that has been abused, but my situation is very different than yours).

I will let others talk to you about where to find a dog like this and what breeds/mixes might be best. I personally think a friendly Golden Retriever is a great first time dog.

I just also want to add that a) you might consider waiting to get a dog since you have your hands so full right now and b) please, please, please pick up a copy of Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sara Wilson before you do anything else.

FWIW I've had six German Shepherds in my life who had a home for life once we invited them to come to live with us. Anything else was not even on our radar. It doesn't mean we haven't lived through our share of problems with them from time to time, but it did mean we learned from our mistakes, made wiser choices, and learned to work with dogs so that problems were avoided in the first place. In these types of threads it's hard to convey that experience to others without sounding like you're judging or disapproving, etc. But, IMO, it really is key to learn what you're getting into and making it work from the get go by educating yourself and making wise choices. I always chuckle when people comment on how well trained my dog is, as if it just happened. It didn't. What people see is the result of years of hard work and constant training and supervision. Thankfully it's something I enjoy because it also tuckers me out.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

And PS, on the chance that the dog you get does not work out, please don't keep it but tie it out in the yard to live by itself. Find it another home. Living tied outside and forgotten is the worst existence you could impart on a dog.

And one last thought, again, taken from my earlier post.

Having a puppy is like having another baby in the house.

Thank you for your honesty. Really. I came to the DIS because I know there are some serious dog owners here.

You said that you would pick the following type dog for me -

"Young adult
Sweet
Playful
Tolerant
Strong
Able to settle down"

That is exactly what I want! And the characteristics that you would NOT pick for me is also exactly what I'm trying to avoid as well.

If it were only me (or only me & DH), I would be looking for a young adult - and I'd probably be getting a golden or a lab. Because, again, honestly, what attracts me most to dogs is the steady companionship aspect.

But both DH & I really want a puppy for the kids.

And my personal habits (or lack thereof) worry me when combined w/ an energetic, rowdy lab or golden.

And I realize that all puppies are energetic! And hard-to-train! And like living with a baby! I do! Really! But I think there are some breeds that are less energetic/jumpy than others.

Which is why, after doing all kinds of research, I fell in love with the Keeshonden.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

If it were only me (or only me & DH), I would be looking for a young adult - and I'd probably be getting a golden or a lab. Because, again, honestly, what attracts me most to dogs is the steady companionship aspect.

But both DH & I really want a puppy for the kids.

Well I'm glad we're on the same page about something!

Now, tell us more about what you mean by this.

 

[mjkacmom]

My first dog was an AKC puppymill puppy (from a puppy store - I was young and stupid). I swore I'd NEVER get another puppy, ever again. Seriously, babies are SO much easier! About a year ago, I felt our kids were old enough now to add a dog to our family. I told them we'd get one when the perfect dog appeared, but no puppies!

My friend fosters puppies, and called me a couple of weeks ago, saying she knew I didn't want a puppy, but she was fostering one (a mix of 2 very high strung breeds), and it was the best dog ever. I'm so glad she called!

This 4 month old is housebroken, crate trained, is calm, doesn't bark when the doorbell rings, sleeps all night long, hasn't gotten into anything (shoes left out, garbage, toys), doesn't nip, doesn't jump on people, responds to "no" (we won't let her go upstairs, and although she tries, we just tell her no). She is very submissive, loves to have her belly rubbed, if you approach her food bowl when she's eating, she backs away.

The best part is that I knew all of this before I got her - I had decided ahead of time that I wanted a dog that was either being surrendered because the family could no longer care for her, or a dog that was fostered, so I could get some idea of her personality before welcoming her into our family.

Because of her breeding, my dog should be a nightmare - if she was being sold, or at a shelter, I wouldn't have touched her with a 10 foot pole. The breed might give an indication, but not always.

 

[Wendy31]

Well I'm glad we're on the same page about something!

Now, tell us more about what you mean by this.

I'm sentimental. So is DH.

We want our kids to have the joy of a puppy. To know their new friend & companion from the beginning. To have the puppy grow up with our kids, especially our youngest.

For this dog to truly be "our dog", or, for us to truly be his "family".

Yes, I know he's going to chew everything & make me crazy. And there will be accidents.

I love books. Especially children's books. And I have tons. And I always have lots of books available for my kids. My two older children would empty the shelves & pile all the books on the floor. My youngest, however, chewed every single book. All of the books have chew marks and missing parts now. I haven't gotten rid of him yet.

Stuff happens. And life is crazy. But family is forever.

 

[SaraJayne]

Unless you want to show/breed the dog, who cares where you buy it from as long as it's healthy.

I think it's crazy to spend anywhere from hundred's to thousand's for pure breed anything when you can find an absolutely lovely mixed breed at the pound and bring them home for under $50. But that's just me.

And me.

 

[janey99]

See, I *do* think I realize that a dog is a major commitment which is why we don't yet have a dog. My kids' friends have dogs, our friends have dogs... but we don't have a dog because DH & I have both realized that a dog was not right for our family until now. And I know the majority of the people we know with dogs did not put this much time & effort in both trying to find the right dog.

We do also realize that you can't just get rid of an animal. I knew right away that the cocker spaniel we "rescued" wasn't a good choice. But we kept her. And tried to do right by her. She was with us for about 6 years before she passed away.

The dog we found abandoned in a campground... I couldn't just leave her there! We tried to get the ranger to take her, but he said they couldn't.

We've had our cat for almost 16 years! While we love her, we realize she has issues, but she's also part of our family. When she was younger, she destroyed my Christmas trees each year. For a while, she completely quit using her litter box & decided that the dining room floor was better. The arms of our living room furniture have been shredded. My mom makes comments all the time, "I just wouldn't have an animal in my house like that!" And, each time, I respond, "She's a part of our family. I don't get rid of the kids when they do something I don't like."

If we purchase a puppy, the puppy is with us for the duration of his/her life - unless he/she goes crazy & starts attacking. We realize this, which is, again, why we haven't had a dog. The time hasn't been right for our family until now.

And I really don't think I should be responsible for the pet choices my parents made. My mom is just not an animal person. If it makes any difference, DH's parents never got rid of any of their dachshunds. They were just outside dogs.

If anything, I'm too much of a softie when it comes to children or animals. DH is worse than me. And, yes, the discipline thing worries me a bit. I'm home all day, but I'm not sure I'm consistent enough - which is why I'm looking for an easier/friendly/forgiving breed.

*sigh* DH & I aren't taking this lightly. While it may appear to come across this way, I really didn't wake up one morning w/ a careless whim - "Let's get a puppy!"

OP, I am definitely not saying anything to you in a judgemental or mean way - I think you DO sound like you are thinking about this a lot. I am only trying to make two points -

On the face of it, from what you have described about your background, I do not think you would come across to what I would describe as a "reputable breeder" as an ideal family to sell a puppy to. By reputable breeder, I mean the type I described in my first post above, breeding to show and doing so for a long time. In my experience, those types of people for every breed are verrry picky and will only release a puppy, show OR pet quality, to a family that has fulfilled their very exacting list of qualifications, which usually includes successful experience with a dog previously, if not the exact same breed they are breeding. I would contrast that with a casual breeder, who would not necessarily judge a family with your background because they themselves don't put that much thought into breeding their dogs, either because their actual knowledge of their breed and breeding generally is very superficial, or because they are in it for the money (or both). If I were you right now, a red flag for me would be a breeder who says "I don't care if you never had a dog before, you guys seem soooo niiiice!" Kind of like that old saying "I don't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member," I think you have to look critically at a potential breeder in light of your history and ask, why does this person want to sell me a dog? If their motivation in that respect is not pure, what kind of assurances can I take from anything THEY tell ME about the quality of the dog I am getting?

Two, puppies/dogs are a huge amount of work. Kind of like having a baby, it is never the perfect right time. Even if the planets are perfectly aligned, it is knock-you-down tiring and stuff can always go wrong. If there has not been a whole lot a dog training in your history, you may not be aware of how true this is. And, despite the most rigorous and attentive training, there will be disappointments and issues. Why is it that my dog can stop mid run and drop down at 200 feet with nothing but a hand signal from me, but every.single.time my diminutive mother comes over to visit, she gets jumped on? I don't know, and it is wearing me down, but we continue to work on it even though my impulse is to just throw her (the dog, not my mother!) outside every time it happens.

Pea is right, it is so hard not to sound preachy or judgemental, and I hope I don't sound either, but if anything I say can help set you up for success instead of failure, I would be so happy, for you and your eventual puppy!

Jane

 

[jrmasm]

The best part is that I knew all of this before I got her - I had decided ahead of time that I wanted a dog that was either being surrendered because the family could no longer care for her, or a dog that was fostered, so I could get some idea of her personality before welcoming her into our family.

OP, I think this is that best type of situation for you. Find a rescue that uses foster homes.

 

[Wendy31]

OP, I am definitely not saying anything to you in a judgemental or mean way - I think you DO sound like you are thinking about this a lot. I am only trying to make two points -

On the face of it, from what you have described about your background, I do not think you would come across to what I would describe as a "reputable breeder" as an ideal family to sell a puppy to. By reputable breeder, I mean the type I described in my first post above, breeding to show and doing so for a long time. In my experience, those types of people for every breed are verrry picky and will only release a puppy, show OR pet quality, to a family that has fulfilled their very exacting list of qualifications, which usually includes successful experience with a dog previously, if not the exact same breed they are breeding. I would contrast that with a casual breeder, who would not necessarily judge a family with your background because they themselves don't put that much thought into breeding their dogs, either because their actual knowledge of their breed and breeding generally is very superficial, or because they are in it for the money (or both). If I were you right now, a red flag for me would be a breeder who says "I don't care if you never had a dog before, you guys seem soooo niiiice!" Kind of like that old saying "I don't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member," I think you have to look critically at a potential breeder in light of your history and ask, why does this person want to sell me a dog? If their motivation in that respect is not pure, what kind of assurances can I take from anything THEY tell ME about the quality of the dog I am getting?

Two, puppies/dogs are a huge amount of work. Kind of like having a baby, it is never the perfect right time. Even if the planets are perfectly aligned, it is knock-you-down tiring and stuff can always go wrong. If there has not been a whole lot a dog training in your history, you may not be aware of how true this is. And, despite the most rigorous and attentive training, there will be disappointments and issues. Why is it that my dog can stop mid run and drop down at 200 feet with nothing but a hand signal from me, but every.single.time my diminutive mother comes over to visit, she gets jumped on? I don't know, and it is wearing me down, but we continue to work on it even though my impulse is to just throw her (the dog, not my mother!) outside every time it happens.

Pea is right, it is so hard not to sound preachy or judgemental, and I hope I don't sound either, but if anything I say can help set you up for success instead of failure, I would be so happy, for you and your eventual puppy!

Jane

I do get what you're saying - that I should be wary of a breeder who would be willing to sell a puppy to us, knowing our history. I understand that.

As an aside, do reputable AKC breeders ever sell puppies to people who have never had a dog before?

Last night, I did more online research on types of breeders. According to what I could find, there are the AKC registered breeders, the puppy mill breeders, the back yard breeders, & the hobby breeders. I think the one I've found is a hobby breeder.

From the videos & pics I've seen & from her own words, I would not call her a back yard breeder. Both the mom & the dad are on site. She is currently specialize-training one of her puppies because the puppy is going to family where the primary caretaker is disabled.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I'm sentimental. So is DH.

We want our kids to have the joy of a puppy. To know their new friend & companion from the beginning. To have the puppy grow up with our kids, especially our youngest.

For this dog to truly be "our dog", or, for us to truly be his "family".

Yes, I know he's going to chew everything & make me crazy. And there will be accidents.

I love books. Especially children's books. And I have tons. And I always have lots of books available for my kids. My two older children would empty the shelves & pile all the books on the floor. My youngest, however, chewed every single book. All of the books have chew marks and missing parts now. I haven't gotten rid of him yet.

Stuff happens. And life is crazy. But family is forever.

You can have all of those things with a young dog as well.

If he's chewing everything or peeing all over the place, he has too much freedom. (Haven't you seen these types of threads before? )

Some links for you. There are a zillion others you can find by googling Toddlers and Puppies. (Your youngest child is my main concern.)

Good luck!

http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/toddlersndogs.html

http://www.terrificpets.com/articles/102285465.asp

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/06/09/terrible-twos?SESS0f2453821d094969e39946c73f44acdb=gnews

http://theparentingpassageway.com/2009/08/26/help-my-puppy-is-biting-my-toddler/

http://www.amazon.com/Childproofing...ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1306174409&sr=8-1-spell

 

[hereyago]

Additionally, I'm not great w/ the discipline-thing. I'm kind of a softie, and, if I'm being perfectly honest w/ myself, lazy too.

This part truly stuck out to me. And this isn't a put down, you were honest when you wrote it, but: if you are going to have this mind set when you get a dog, don't get one. seriously. I don't care what kind of dog it is, if the owners are going to be lazy with training, discipline, that dog is going to walk all over you and dogs should not be the alphas over the family.

 

[pospisil]

And, during the time we lived w/ my parents, she had to stay outside.

You sound like a nice person, but this concerns me a little.

 

[hereyago]

I just wanted to add:

You mention possibly puppy growing up with your youngest-who right now is like a puppy.

It can be a beautiful thing for a child to grow up like that with a dog. when my DD was a little over 2 months old, we had to put my dog to sleep-cancer. DH at the time HAD to have a puppy for DD to grow up with. Our puppy was a month younger then my DD.

He was teething, she was teething, she was in diapers, he was trying to learn how to house train, it isn't for the weak.

Some people have this "idea" of what puppyhood or getting a dog is like, seeing the closeness in a movie, but it's going to be some effort of work.

 

[janey99]

I do get what you're saying - that I should be wary of a breeder who would be willing to sell a puppy to us, knowing our history. I understand that.

As an aside, do reputable AKC breeders ever sell puppies to people who have never had a dog before?

Last night, I did more online research on types of breeders. According to what I could find, there are the AKC registered breeders, the puppy mill breeders, the back yard breeders, & the hobby breeders. I think the one I've found is a hobby breeder.

From the videos & pics I've seen & from her own words, I would not call her a back yard breeder. Both the mom & the dad are on site. She is currently specialize-training one of her puppies because the puppy is going to family where the primary caretaker is disabled.

I don't think I'm the right person to ask about AKC registration validity. Although my own dog's mother is AKC registered (as is my dog) (the father is Canadian-registered), that fact was not a driving force behind my selection of my breeder. I've heard too many horror stories that anyone who pays the fee can AKC register a dog a or a litter (even puppy mills who somehow doctor ownership and pedigree).

Once you eliminate AKC registration as a proving point, the next thing to go to in my opinion is the dog's parents' history in other proving areas that are not possible to doctor or falsify, like long term breed club memberships in good standing, show records, and records from other competitive pursuits, like competition obedience, agility, etc. Once these circumstances can be proved, they also reinforce other claims about your potential dog, like health or temperament. Evidence of health checks on parents (and further back in the line) is another important marker. Eventually, you develop a matrix of info that can be proven or cross checked, and you gain comfort that way.

For some breeders, once you eliminate AKC registration as an important marker, they have nothing else to prove they are who they say they are or that they have quality healthy puppies to offer. This probably includes most puppy mills, back yard breeders and hobby breeders (although I'm not sure, what is the difference between a back yard breeder and a hobby breeder?)

I don't think any of this, or anything else that was said on this thread, would mean that a reputable breeder (the way I define it) would never place a puppy with a family like yours, I think it would mean that it might take a little longer to find the right match, and they might ask tougher questions, or put terms and conditions in your contract about continued contact with them. Annoying and frustrating, but hopefully OK in the end.

As an additional thought, since you have also mentioned the possiblity of an older dog, many breeders I know I very plugged into the rescue and adoption scene for their breed. They often know of adolescent or young adult dogs that are the result of very high quality breeding but for some reason are not placed with homes (example, thought the dog was a show prospect but turned out not to be, dog surrendered back totthe breeder under contract because the original family could no longer keep it for some reason (which you would investigate!), etc.) Finding a great dog through that type of scenario might work for you as well.

Jane

 

[jel0511]

Well, geewhiz, ya'll!! This isn't really what I wanted to read!

I do realize (I was afraid of this when I posted this thread) that I seem a bit flaky when it comes to dogs after posting my Shiba Inu thread only a week earlier.

First, my experience w/ dogs - Admittedly, not alot. When I was very young, my parents had a boxer which they got rid of when he snapped at me. Later, they got my sister and me a cocker spaniel which they got rid of when he wouldn't leave my younger sister alone. After we were both older, we had a mixed breed dog which I really loved. My parents got rid of him when we moved to a house w/o a fenced back yard. Then Dad got a border collie from a friend at work which we kept for a while before we gave her to someone who had a farm. My mom is not an "inside animal" person. Even our various cats were outside cats. When I was about 16, my best friend & her family got a cocker spaniel puppy, and, whenever they went out of town, we kept her for them. It was my first experience having a dog inside our house.

DH & I got married in 4/1995, and we got a cat in 10/1995. We had originally gone to the humane society to look at the puppies. But this particular kittie purred in DH's arms, and that was that! She was a definitely rescue kittie - she had cigarette burns on her, and, to this day, she runs whenever we flip open a plastic garbage bag... we're thinking that maybe she was thrown out in a garbage bag. Anyway, she's been with us for almost 16 years. She's a cranky cat. But we love her. She's been with us through 3 different moves. Before we moved into our current house, we had to live w/ my parents for about a month before our house was ready because our other house had sold. And, during the time we lived w/ my parents, she had to stay outside. But she hung w/ us even in the confusion. However, she's not a "kid" cat at all. She just tolerates our kids.

DH grew up w/ dachshunds. But his mother is also a "no animals inside" person. About two years after we got married, we "rescued" a grown cocker spaniel from an elderly lady who could no longer keep her. This particular cocker was VERY rambunctious and completely untrained/unsocialized. I'm not sure what we were thinking. While Sadie came in our house every once in a while, she couldn't stay inside because she completely terrorized our cat. After our DD & DS were born, she couldn't be around them. She was just way too much dog for me to handle. However, we kept her until she passed away from old age. We also once rescued an abandoned puppy when we went camping. This puppy was so sweet! But something was wrong w/ her leg. I can't remember exactly what it was, but the vet said that even surgery wouldn't help. So we ended up having to have her put to sleep.

While I've said I'm a "cat person", I do like dogs. I'll always have a cat. In comparison to dogs, I like how cats take care of themselves! LOL! But I like the steady companionship of a dog.

Why do we want a dog now? Well, DH has wanted a dog for awhile. So have the 2 older kids. I want the kids to have a pet. I'm a sucker for movies like "Homeward Bound". I loved how there was a special relationship between each pet and their child. The scene where the golden retriever comes over the hill & runs to his boy's arms? It gets me every single time! I want our kids to have that kind of relationship w/ a pet.

We decided now would be a good time because our youngest is in the "puppy stages" himself. We have baby gates all over our house. He likes to take his diaper off, so there are pee accidents. He went through a stage where he chewed every single book on the shelf. He's still not sleeping through the night, and I'm having a horrible time weaning him. So I thought, instead of waiting until he's passed all this, why not get a puppy now... so they can go through the puppy stages together? LOL!

I've always like the bigger, steadier breeds - like German Shepherds, Golden Retrievers, Labs, even Saint Bernards. I also like Beagles. And I think the wolf-look breeds are gorgeous!

We want our dog to be an inside dog. And, honestly, I'm not a "romp in the yard" person. I like to take walks. But I'm not a rambunctious person. I like quiet. I don't let my kids get loud and crazy. I had always assumed we would get a golden retriever or a lab since they're supposed to be the best with kids. I still love the idea of a golden or a lab. But I'm not sure I'm ready for a golden or lab puppy. Also, they have the doggy smell. My DD doesn't like big dogs that jump. I'm afraid a lab would just bowl over our youngest.

I also don't prefer the small, yappy-type dogs. DH doesn't prefer the smaller lap dogs.

Additionally, I'm not great w/ the discipline-thing. I'm kind of a softie, and, if I'm being perfectly honest w/ myself, lazy too.

So I started researching. Someone here posted a link to the shiba inu puppy cam. Adorable! And when I 1st started researching the breed, I thought a shiba inu would be okay for us. I liked the "quirky" and independent personality. But I realized that a shiba inu wouldn't be a good dog for either our cat or our toddler.

I did some further research and found the Keeshond. Ad I've said, everything about the dog appeals to me. The only thing that concerns me is all that hair! From what I've read, it just requires a weekly brushing/grooming... which I think is doable.

I'm not taking get a dog likely. While I don't post a lot, I've been around the DIS for years - since 2005. I've learned I can't go to a pet store & that I need to find a reputable breeder. In fact, reading things other people have posted about dogs is probably why we don't yet have a dog! LOL! It's scared me too much!!

I've never purchased a dog before. Probably, if it were just me, I would be looking at adult rescue dogs. But I want my kids to have a puppy. I want the dog to be part of our family and live with us in our house. I want a sweet dog that wants to be around all 5 (6 including the cat) of us. I want a dog that's just as happy lying on the couch watching TV w/ me as he is wrestling w/ my DS and letting my DD brush his hair.

I know all kinds of people who have family dogs, and I know we shouldn't be acquiring a dog "because everybody else has one". However, I'm sure they didn't put as much thought into what kind of dog and from where as I have!

I really think a Keeshond is the right dog for us, all things considered. Again, the only thing I'm concerned about is the hair. I took everything into consideration I thought - our toddler, our cat, our daily lives, the type of dogs I like, the types of dogs DH likes, the types of dogs DD doesn't like...

The particular breeder I'm looking at raises Keeshonden. She seems sincere. She is probably best characterized as the "hobby breeder". Before we purchase, we're going to look at her puppies (& the mom & dad) next week. The price is high. But that actually makes my DH feel better... his philosophy is "you get what you pay for". The only thing that's making me question the price is that her price is almost as high an AKC puppy. She does not sell to everyone. She had questions for us too.

I know we could rescue a puppy from a shelter. But we've had bad luck when we've rescued dogs. I just want to know we've gotten the best puppy for our kids, you know?

I guess when I posted, I wanted everyone to say, "No! CKC puppies are great! No worries!" LOL! I guess now I'm asking... can a CKC puppy be just as a good as a AKC puppy? Is it worth paying a high price to get a good, wellbred puppy that is not AKC?

Okay, so, w/ all this... any more suggestions/comments/advice/critique? I really do appreciate everyone responding & I'm reading/considering everything being said.

Now, I own one dog and he was the first dog we've ever had. One of the things that you said above, raises HUGE red flags about the breeder and your ability to train a dog. It's the same thing, you say that since one of your children is still in the "puppy stages" himself that it's the perfect time to get a dog. And that couldn't be further from the truth. When we were looking for a puppy all of the breeders we spoke to were very firm in not placing a puppy in a home with a child in diapers (DS was just out of diapers when we started looking). As you said yours takes his/hers off and has accidents around the house. It is VERY difficult to house train a dog when someone is doing that or even going in their diaper all the time. It confuses the dog as they can't understand why they can't go in the house, when someone else can. Remember a dog's sense of smell is MUCH more sensitive than a humans. I understand your willingness to get a dog and properly train one, but I really believe that your situation is not the proper place to house train a puppy right now, and your breeder's inability to see this or even ask the proper questions is alarming. House training is serious business and in your situation, sounds like you're setting up yourself for failure there. I'd wait until your youngest is out of diapers before getting a dog.