Dog Experts - Am I crazy for buying a CKC instead of an AKC puppy? UPDATE - New ?'s!!

[Wendy31]

Is that a negative in your mind?

No, not really. In fact, the more I read, the more I'm starting to see it as a positive. However, one thing I read said that, by 12 weeks, the puppies are starting to lose a little bit of their "puppy" look.

You keep mentioning you don't want a certain breed due to "doggie odor". Can you please explain?

I have Rough Collies (long haired) that I used to show before I had children. One of the woman I showed with had Keeshonds . She showed them in confirmation as well as performance and worked a little with the local rescue club.

These dogs are not needing alot of outside exercise like a Lab or border collie would but they are high maintance dogs. Their coats require extensive care. I know you say that you know that, but People just don't realize the time and expense of it. My products I use for my collies just with them being house dogs costs hundreds of dollars, between brushes, combs, scissors, table, and bathing products. It goes on and on. The cost to groom one of them at our local groomer is about $80.00 a dog and that is if they go ever 6-8 weeks.

We received so many collies into rescue because the owners said they did know their coat required so much care or that they would shed so much. Keeshonds are the same, just throwing a few more things out there.

I'm not an outdoorsy person. Neither are my kids really. During the summer, it just gets way too hot here to really "play" outside - if we're outside during the summer, we're at my inlaws' pool. And, during the school year, there's really not a lot of time. We got on walks & picnics & visit the lake & riverpark - but we're really not outdoors a lot, if that makes sense.

I've always known that whatever dog we get, the dog will be inside with us. I don't like when dogs are just tied up outside or left outside in a fenced yard.

So, I wanted a dog that will be happy indoors w/ us and not need a lot of "romp" time outside. I do plan to go on walks.

I always thought my choices for an inside dog were the smaller breeds, but, from everything I've read, the smaller breeds aren't the best w/ children. The larger breeds are the better/steadier breeds w/ children.

I honestly always thought we would end up w/ a lab. The whole reason we don't have a dog yet is because I was worried about the high energy of a lab.

I love the Great Bear Mountainese - but he drools a lot. I like the Mastiffs - but again drool & just huge. And I read that Golden and Labs (which I also adore) get that "doggy" smell - plus, need a lot of outdoor play time. And I read that beagles (who are a hound breed) have the "doggy" smell too.

Since our dog is going to be living w/ us indoors, I've been looking for the lab personality w/ less energy - plus, "cleaner-smelling".

Everything I've read about the Keeshonden seems to fit that. And I know the hair/grooming will be an issue - but the hair I'm willing to live with. From what I've read (and I also plan to ask the breeder) is that Keeshonden need to be brushed 2-3 times/week and bathed every 1-2/months - depending on how much time the dog's spent outside, of course.

I do realize that all dogs will smell like dogs - I just think some dogs are less doggy-smelling than others.

I would go with the 12 week old puppy. Our breeder doesn't like to place puppies before 12 weeks as there is so much puppy learning they do during this time. A puppy that has had lessons on how to be a dog from his mother and littermates is a much, much more well-adjusted dog.

The fact that your first breeder says "I think they would be healthy if tested" should tell you to RUN like the wind. Sure she can say they are going to be cerfed in the future - but that doesn't help you in determining the healthh of the puppies, now does it? And my guess is the dogs will never be cerfed and that is just a line being fed to you.

A responsible breeder would have done the cerf and all the health tests long before they had even one litter on the ground, let alone 3 a year.

The fact that she is breeding without the health screenings screams backyard, for profit breeder that has learned how to say the right things so that first time buyers, who are a bit naive (and not in a negative way) fall for her used-car sales pitch.

Just because the dogs are in the house, does not make her a good breeder. If you really want to test her, have her pull out the pedigree on the CKC male (since she said she knows all about his history) and ask her the health screening results of the great, great grandparents. If she is a responsible breeder, she should be able to tell you the history of each and every dog in the pedigree.

I'm leaning more towards the 12 weeks as well. I've been reading some articles on how the longer the puppy is w/ his mom, the more "trained" he is and more well-rounded or balanced. By training, I mean things like the "bite inhibition".

I do feel, in my heart, that the 1st breeder (the one w/o the AKC registration) is a good breeder. She's been very upfront w/ me. And I think her puppies are probably very healthy & well-socialized puppies.

But, for the same price, I can have a puppy that has had all the health screenings. And also has the AKC registration from a breeder that is a member of the Keeshond Club.

Okay....you do seem to be on the right road here. You seem to be giving some thought and are looking at the right things. 12 weeks old really isn't all 'that' old for a puppy. Really, truly...many people get pups before they are really ready to leave their mom and litter-mates. So, don't let that stop you.

My other concern is the one about the 'doggie smell'. Very few 'breeds' have no doggie smell. My golden has no doggie smell. But, he is groomed every 6 weeks..more often in the warmer months. It's not the coat that is smelly, it's the skin. I have a friend who has a goldadoodle....part golden, part poodle. He is supposed to be hypoallergenic. Maybe so...but he tends to get really stinky. Probably not groomed often enough.
Smelliness can be dealth with by bathing. You don't bath a dog every week (unless he's being shown) but they do need bathing every month or so when it's warm...and less frequently in the cooler weather.
I have friends with dogs that are so bad, I have to wash my hands after touching them. They just aren't groomed enough.

It's all about the care that is taken. Have you looked into the Norwich Terriers, or the Australian Terriers??? Nice little dogs, don't shed, good with kids (at least the ones I've been around were). Just a thought.

My golden was also bred in a household family atmosphere. Inside the house with all his litter-mates. But they also had a beautiful kennel run outside. BUT...I can also go to my dog's notebook and get the health records for both his parents. I can also see who his grandparents were on both sides. I can see the physical records from when he was examined as a young puppy. It's all there in black and white. There is no way I would have paid the amount I paid without those records. Sure, I could have simply returned the puppy if he had been sick, but that would have been very hard to do..have you ever seen a golden retriever puppy??? Dear lord....they are the cutest things on the planet. Really hard to give back.
Long story short? Be absolutely sure about who you are buying from. Get those health records, and keep them.

Thank you! I explained a little above about what I've been meaning w/ the "doggy smell". And, yes, golden retriever puppies are absolutely precious!

What it is about the "puppy experience" that you are wanting for your children? I ask because, in my opinion, when you have children there are many more negatives than positives to the puppy experience and I'm curious as to what you think are the positives. As I see it, the positives are that puppies are cuter than older dogs and you get to mold the puppy from early on. But in your case, I'm not sure #2 is really a plus since you aren't yet really well versed in training dogs. You might be molding the dog to be perfect from an early age but you might also be doing more harm than good.

The negatives of getting a puppy when you have kids: They are a lot more work than an older dog. They can't be trusted - you can't take your eyes off them for a minute or they will have accidents in the house and destroy things. They will bite and nip and chew, on your things and on your children. They are fragile, so kids can't hug them and play with them the way they are likely to want to. They aren't terribly interactive (unless they want to be, and they won't all the time), and won't play fetch or learn tricks at first. They are hyper and wild - even if they are a breed that is calm as adults - and then they fall sound asleep when you want to play with them. Their personalities aren't as obvious as they will be when they are older, so it's harder to be sure you're choosing the perfect dog for your family. (That last one is less important when you have a breeder who chooses the puppy for you, but more important if you're the one picking it out.)

Regarding the two parts in red: It doesn't matter if they feel the test would be negative. Of course they say feel that way, and they may actually feel that way. But ignore it. Until and unless there's an actual test that is negative, it doesn't matter what they feel. Honestly the fact that she said that would worry me - it seems like a tactic a used car salesman would use.

Also ignore that she's nice. Lots of people are nice but you can't feel obligated to do business with every nice salesperson who helps you when you're shopping for something, and despite the fact that this is a living thing you are shopping for you are still shopping and the breeder is still a salesperson. I'm sure she is nice and I also hate telling people no about things like this. But if she's a decent breeder she will completely understand, and if she doesn't understand then she's not the kind of person you would want to do business with anyway. This isn't personal. You aren't choosing her, you're choosing the dog that is the best fit for your family. A good breeder will understand and encourage that sort of thinking.

Personally, if I were buying a puppy and had a choice between getting one from a reputable breeder who does all the health testing and someone else who doesn't, there would be no question - especially if they were the same price. I'd go with the reputable breeder every time. Though you seem to think 12 weeks is not a good age, it's really better for the puppies to stay with the mother that long if possible so that's actually a plus.

You said a lot of things that really made me think. I think I want the kids to have a puppy so they'll be w/ it from the beginning. Additionally, tonight at dinner, as DH & I were discussing everything that's been said here & by the two breeders, he said he really wanted a puppy too - because he's always wanted to train a dog. He's downloaded a book onto his smart phone on dog behavior & training that he's been reading at work.

And, yes, I'm realizing that 12 weeks may be actually better than 8 weeks. I was telling DH that the extra 4 weeks is 4 weeks longer that the puppy is w/ an expert.

And, yes, I have a hard time when salespeople are "nice" to me. I once bought a house because I felt guilty about disappointing our realtor if I didn't. It's just that she's been sooo nice to me - and has spent so much time emailing back & forth w/ me. I'm not sure how to tell her we've perhaps found another puppy.

But the price of both puppies is almost $1000 - way more than I thought I'd ever spend on a puppy. And, for that money, I'm thinking I should get the health certifications, right?

This is also from the Keeshond Club of America...

Thank you for posting all that!

a 12 week old puppy is very much a puppy...don't sell yourself on getting *newborn* so to speak. A 12 week old puppy will still give you every experience owning a puppy except that it may actually sleep through the night because he/she is a little older. The only thing you will miss it is going from 5 lbs to 20 lbs in 2 months...very under rated LOL!!

According to what I've read, an 8 week old puppy needs to go out every 3 hours , & 12 week old puppy needs to go out every 4 hours!

Okay, w/ all that being said... here are my new questions/points to ponder:

The 1st breeder has told me that she specifically doesn't choose AKC registered dogs because of how the AKC dogs are "line-bred". She feels that all the "in line breeding" makes the dogs have a shorter life span - that they may be genetically tested & free from the genetic health issues, but the in line breeding makes them weaker - that an AKC dog would have a 7-10 year life span instead of a 12-15 year life span, or even an 18 year life span like one of her current dogs.

So I looked at the pedigree of the puppies from the 2nd breeder (the AKC registered puppies), and there is line breeding. I even looked at the pedigree of some collies I found, & there was line breeding there too - so it appears maybe it's a normal thing?

So I started researching line breeding. According to what I've read, there is a difference between line breeding and inbreeding.

But is a non AKC puppy "hardier"?

The AKC puppies have been tested & the breeder sent me a link to their OFA page so I could see the tests of the parents. Additionally, the puppies have a micro chip.

My issues - the puppies from the hobby breeder seem to be well-loved & well-socialized. In a way, I feel like her puppies are probably more socialized than the AKC breeder. In my heart, I feel like she has healthy puppies, & that there would probably never be an issue w/ her dogs. But they are not AKC puppies and, while they will have their initial shots & vet checks, the parents have not had all the health tests & certifications. And the price she is charging is the same price as the AKC puppies w/ the health certifications & micro chip. I asked her, & her puppies are raised in her house as well.

Oh, & and the AKC breeder has told me we could go ahead and get our puppy & then, when we go on vacation in June, we could take our puppy back to her for the week - she lives about 2 hours away from us.

I absolutely never thought I would be putting this much research into a puppy! Everyone I know just goes out & gets a dog.

Additional thoughts?

 

[goofy!]

I'm leaning more towards the 12 weeks as well. I've been reading some articles on how the longer the puppy is w/ his mom, the more "trained" he is and more well-rounded or balanced. By training, I mean things like the "bite inhibition".

I do feel, in my heart, that the 1st breeder (the one w/o the AKC registration) is a good breeder. She's been very upfront w/ me. And I think her puppies are probably very healthy & well-socialized puppies.

But, for the same price, I can have a puppy that has had all the health screenings. And also has the AKC registration from a breeder that is a member of the Keeshond Club.

And, yes, I'm realizing that 12 weeks may be actually better than 8 weeks. I was telling DH that the extra 4 weeks is 4 weeks longer that the puppy is w/ an expert.


But the price of both puppies is almost $1000 - way more than I thought I'd ever spend on a puppy. And, for that money, I'm thinking I should get the health certifications, right? Absolutely!


According to what I've read, an 8 week old puppy needs to go out every 3 hours , & 12 week old puppy needs to go out every 4 hours!

Okay, w/ all that being said... here are my new questions/points to ponder:

The 1st breeder has told me that she specifically doesn't choose AKC registered dogs because of how the AKC dogs are "line-bred". She feels that all the "in line breeding" makes the dogs have a shorter life span - that they may be genetically tested & free from the genetic health issues, but the in line breeding makes them weaker - that an AKC dog would have a 7-10 year life span instead of a 12-15 year life span, or even an 18 year life span like one of her current dogs. Total and absolute bull malarky. And this little speech now convinces me she is a scam artist whose only concern is making a profit on the puppy. Think about it, with the puppies being the same price, who has the larger margin of profit? The lady who has a convenient story of why she hasn't shelled out the money for all the health screenings, or the responsible breeder who has shelled out the money? So, who really cares more about the quality of their puppies vs the money that is going into their pocket?

Really, life expectancy from 7-10 years vs 18? I would have had to leave quickly because I would be laughing so hard at the bull this lady is flinging. Breeder #1 - total backyard breeder with so many red flags that you should be backing away, don't look back, no regrets. Used car salesperson with outstanding bulls* skills. Breeder #2 - responsible breeder that has given you every reason to seriously consider her puppies.

So I looked at the pedigree of the puppies from the 2nd breeder (the AKC registered puppies), and there is line breeding. I even looked at the pedigree of some collies I found, & there was line breeding there too - so it appears maybe it's a normal thing? Yes, in some lines, some line breeding is normal. And with careful research and testing, it is not a bad thing.

So I started researching line breeding. According to what I've read, there is a difference between line breeding and inbreeding.

But is a non AKC puppy "hardier"? Absolutely not. A well-bred and well researched puppy stands a much better chance to be healthier than a dog where the breeders "think" they will be healthier. The registration has nothing to do with it. It is the care and thought behind the litter, which breeder #2 has put into it, that should be the defining factor.

The AKC puppies have been tested & the breeder sent me a link to their OFA page so I could see the tests of the parents. Additionally, the puppies have a micro chip. Again, the AKC puppies have been bred by a responsible breeder.

My issues - the puppies from the hobby breeder seem to be well-loved & well-socialized. In a way, I feel like her puppies are probably more socialized than the AKC breeder. what makes you think the puppies from breeder #2 aren't well socialized? I would assume since breeder #2 has done everything else right, that she is also very knowledgeable about socializing her puppies. You don't do everything right and then ignore the puppies In my heart, I feel like she has healthy puppies, & that there would probably never be an issue w/ her dogs. How can you possibly assume that? You have no background on the puppies, absolutely no health screenings vs. a proven breeder who has done everything right But they are not AKC puppies and, while they will have their initial shots & vet checks, the parents have not had all the health tests & certifications. Again, the AKC registration has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with the hours and hours and hours of work, usually months of research and understand of what is in each line, thousands of dollars in health screening to make sure you are not breeding two dogs that can perpetuate genetic diseases. If breeder # 1 was a true hobby breeder and not a back yard breeder, she would at least have had the OFA done on her dogs. And the price she is charging is the same price as the AKC puppies w/ the health certifications & micro chip. I asked her, & her puppies are raised in her house as well. So, they are both in the house. Why would you assume that breeder #1's dogs are more socialized. I would suggest that breeder #2's dogs are more socialized as she is far more invested in the quality and care of her litter than breeder #1

Oh, & and the AKC breeder has told me we could go ahead and get our puppy & then, when we go on vacation in June, we could take our puppy back to her for the week - she lives about 2 hours away from us. As mentioned, this is what responsible breeders do. They are there for you. They remain responsible for their puppies for the rest of their lives if you need them. This breeder will most likely become a wonderful mentor, whom you can rely on when you have any questions as the dog grows up

I absolutely never thought I would be putting this much research into a puppy! Everyone I know just goes out & gets a dog. good for you! It is so nice to see somebody really put some thought into the puppy they are bringing into their home.

Additional thoughts?

Have you asked breeder #1 for references? Ask her to give you references from 3 of her puppy owners, 2 of them being adult dogs, preferably 2 years or older.

But, the more you post about breeder #1, in my opinion, the more you should just call her up and say your plans have changed. Absolutely no reason to go into more detail.

 

[mjkacmom]

Oh, & and the AKC breeder has told me we could go ahead and get our puppy & then, when we go on vacation in June, we could take our puppy back to her for the week - she lives about 2 hours away from us.

I absolutely never thought I would be putting this much research into a puppy! Everyone I know just goes out & gets a dog.

Additional thoughts?

Stop - you are thinking about getting a puppy NOW, and you are going on vacation for 2 weeks next month?! We found a rescue in January, but I told the kids no, because we have a week's vacation scheduled for August. The only reason we adopted our 4 month old puppy last week (and at 4 months, she's still a puppy puppy), is because my friend (her foster) offered to watch her for us.

Breeder #1 - RUN! As for kids and puppies, kids don't like puppies. They prefer older dogs. Puppies bite, scratch, cry, destroy, jump... When my kids' friends get puppies, my kids don't like to go there after the first time.

ALL puppies have boundless energy - don't expect calmness for at least a year. I love our puppy - she's SO weirdly good, though. That is why my friend convinced us to adopt her, because she fosters SO many puppies, and this one was the only easy one.

 

[Jynohn]

My advice is to steer clear of breeder #1 at all costs. The fact that she is breeding non-registered and Continental Kennel Club dogs in the first place tells me that either she's starting out with poorly bred dogs, or somewhere down the line someone scammed a reputable breeder by agreeing to spay/neuter their AKC dog, and breeding them anyway with no registration or registering them with the CKC. Sadly, this happens all the time.

Even more concerning is the line she's feeding you about the health testing. It's total BS that she "feels certain" that her dogs would pass the screenings. If she's so certain, then why not do the testing to prove it? The reason seems simple to me....that would cut into her profit margin.

I breed Great Danes, and we have a beautiful two year old girl that we had planned to breed this summer. I have a list a mile long of people who have been waiting for a puppy from her. We just took her last month to get her OFA cardiac screening. It was a formality, because both of her parents were fully health tested and passed with flying colors, and this girl is as healthy as they come. Well guess what...she didn't pass her cardiac testing. She has a slight heart murmur, which while it's not harmful to her, it can be passed along to her puppies. She's going to be spayed now and will be our beloved pet, despite the thousands of dollars we've already poured into her for showing, health testing, etc.

That's what reputable breeders do. The breeder you describe with the first litter may be a perfectly nice woman, but she is not a reputable breeder. Keep looking.

 

[goofy4tink]

'Line-breeding'?? Shortens their life span?? Seriously?? I'm really not too sure where that comes from. A reputable breeder (one who belongs to the AKC, a breed club and shows their dogs) does not breed too closely. They will not breed with any other animal that is not in perfect health.
Certain breeds have pretty definitive life spans. For instance, golden retreivers tend to live for between 10 and 13 years. Any longer than that, and you're lucky. Large dogs have a much shorter lifespan than the smaller breeds. That's a fact of life.

My golden doesn't have a doggie smell. Most dogs won't if they are groomed regularly. That's another fact of life. In fact, sometimes, my cat smells worse than my dog...go figure.

I am really not trying to be negative here, I am trying to be helpful. The thing is that you are saying some things that really make me think that this isn't the right time for a puppy for your family.
For instance...the 'puppy experience'??? Yeah, it's a great experience for kids..they get bitten, chased around, their stuff gets eaten and destroyed. This sounds like the person who wants their cat to have a litter of kittens so that the kids can see the 'miracle of life'. Such a myth. You want a puppy with that 'puppy look'. What are you going to do when that puppy look goes away???
You want a dog that doesn't need a lot of exercise, is calm, is socialized, easy to train, doesn't smell. And you are planing on a vacation within a month of getting the puppy. Very unfair to the dog to keep changing his surroundings.

I think I'm done giving out advice here. Nothing we say seems to be making a difference.

 

[jrmasm]

'Line-breeding'?? Shortens their life span?? Seriously?? I'm really not too sure where that comes from. A reputable breeder (one who belongs to the AKC, a breed club and shows their dogs) does not breed too closely. They will not breed with any other animal that is not in perfect health.
Certain breeds have pretty definitive life spans. For instance, golden retreivers tend to live for between 10 and 13 years. Any longer than that, and you're lucky. Large dogs have a much shorter lifespan than the smaller breeds. That's a fact of life.

My golden doesn't have a doggie smell. Most dogs won't if they are groomed regularly. That's another fact of life. In fact, sometimes, my cat smells worse than my dog...go figure.

I am really not trying to be negative here, I am trying to be helpful. The thing is that you are saying some things that really make me think that this isn't the right time for a puppy for your family.
For instance...the 'puppy experience'??? Yeah, it's a great experience for kids..they get bitten, chased around, their stuff gets eaten and destroyed. This sounds like the person who wants their cat to have a litter of kittens so that the kids can see the 'miracle of life'. Such a myth. You want a puppy with that 'puppy look'. What are you going to do when that puppy look goes away???
You want a dog that doesn't need a lot of exercise, is calm, is socialized, easy to train, doesn't smell. And you are planing on a vacation within a month of getting the puppy. Very unfair to the dog to keep changing his surroundings.I think I'm done giving out advice here. Nothing we say seems to be making a difference.

Don't forget, puppies are a pain in the patookie. That's really all you need to know. You should really consider denying your children 'the experience' because it really isn't that great. Especially with everything that goes along with 3 kids, including a toddler.

 

[PlutoPony]

.... As for kids and puppies, kids don't like puppies. They prefer older dogs. Puppies bite, scratch, cry, destroy, jump... When my kids' friends get puppies, my kids don't like to go there after the first time.

This has been our experience as well. We're dog people and have had 1-2 big dogs (80 lb labs, rough collies) for the 25 years we're been married. The longest year of our life was when we brought our current lab into our home as a 9 week old puppy, when our now 16 yo son was 4. Even though ALL of us were used to multiple big dogs and all that goes with it, our son and his friends had such a love/hate relationship with the pup - and it was mostly not love let me tell you . And this was the cutest puppy, (I know, who's seen lab puppy that's not cute) but the kids got past that fact quite early on. After a very short while it didn't make a difference, the puppy was annoying to them as all get out.

Please be sure you want the reality of the puppy/young kid experience. I think it may well be different than your vision of it.

Good luck

 

[nancycg56]

My friend has a Bernese Mountain Dog ~ about 125 lbs., and I have never seen her drool. And I see her every day.

All she really does is lay around ~ esp. during the summer. She doesn't move much when it's hot but during the winter she runs around.

She's a great watchdog, gets annoyed with puppies, and lives with a 15 lb dog and they get along great

I would love one ~ she's a great dog!

 

[yoopermom]

You've gotten tons of great advice here, but I would add that when you say you're not outdoor people, you kind of have to learn to be to have a happy dog. All the Kong toys and "playing" inside is not the same as serious exercise, obedience classes, trips in the car, etc. You say you're willing to do walks, but have you really thought about the logistics? What you'll do with the children while you walk the dog? What about when it's hot/cold/rainy, etc? What about when you're sick, or the kids are, or you just want to have a "lazy" day? A bored dog is a destructive, unhappy dog. Will you have the time and energy to commit to at least puppy classes, and the daily practice they require?

I believe (as do many here) that a dog purchase is for life (that's why a responsible breeder will require you to return it to them if you need to get rid of it for any reason). Are you ready to commit at least the next decade of your life to giving this dog the best life possible?

Terri

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Why not rescue a dog from shelter that's going to be put down instead of spending gobs of money on a purebred?

 

[surfergirl602]

Why not rescue a dog from shelter that's going to be put down instead of spending gobs of money on a purebred?

I agree. This whole thread just makes me so sad. There are so many wonderful dogs that deserve a home in shelters. I would never consider spending that much on a dog before I went and looked at the shelters. I have three labs and they are part of our family. My first lab is from a shelter and is AKC registered. I couldn't imagine him ever being put down because someone thought he was "less of a dog" for being in a shelter. He's 8 years old and still acts like he's 3.

 

[Scurvy]

I agree. This whole thread just makes me so sad. There are so many wonderful dogs that deserve a home in shelters. I would never consider spending that much on a dog before I went and looked at the shelters. I have three labs and they are part of our family. My first lab is from a shelter and is AKC registered. I couldn't imagine him ever being put down because someone thought he was "less of a dog" for being in a shelter. He's 8 years old and still acts like he's 3.

No one in the thread has implied that shelter dogs are "less of a dog" than a dog from a breeder.

I love shelter dogs. If you're looking for a good pet, you really can't go wrong with a shelter animal. However, if you have reasons for really wanting a specific breed of dog, sometimes a shelter isn't the best way to go. I've seen plenty of shelter dogs passed off as Lab mixes or Golden mixes or whatever else might seem appealing, with no mention of the Pit Bull or Chow or Rottweiller that most likely makes up the other part of that mix. Someone who isn't very familiar with dogs but wants the specific characteristics of a certain breed in their new pet (and who doesn't necessarily seem like the best candidate for dog ownership to many breed-specific rescue groups) might be better off going to a reputable breeder than trying their luck at shelters or rescues.

In the OP's case I do think she could probably find a shelter dog that would be a great fit for her family, but if she's really set on having this specific breed because she believes it's the best choice for her family then a reputable, responsible breeder is probably her best bet.

 

[Anne34]

No one in the thread has implied that shelter dogs are "less of a dog" than a dog from a breeder.

I love shelter dogs. If you're looking for a good pet, you really can't go wrong with a shelter animal. However, if you have reasons for really wanting a specific breed of dog, sometimes a shelter isn't the best way to go. I've seen plenty of shelter dogs passed off as Lab mixes or Golden mixes or whatever else might seem appealing, with no mention of the Pit Bull or Chow or Rottweiller that most likely makes up the other part of that mix. Someone who isn't very familiar with dogs but wants the specific characteristics of a certain breed in their new pet (and who doesn't necessarily seem like the best candidate for dog ownership to many breed-specific rescue groups) might be better off going to a reputable breeder than trying their luck at shelters or rescues.

In the OP's case I do think she could probably find a shelter dog that would be a great fit for her family, but if she's really set on having this specific breed because she believes it's the best choice for her family then a reputable, responsible breeder is probably her best bet.

We looked at Shelter dogs before we got our corgi....our Beagle had to be put to sleep due to cancer that was restricting her airways. Kids were heartbroken (2,4 & 6). Most shelters wouldn't even talk to us about young dogs since we had younger children. They would only show us the older dogs. Most of those dogs were there due to issues they had (many had signs on their cages saying they were aggressive, etc).

I agree with the OP that a puppy is often the way to go. You train it the way you want it to behave. We got our Corgi from a hobby breader. We met the mom & the other pups & were happy with our decision. She has been a wonderful dog (turns 10 on Friday!!) She is VERY smart, easily trained & not as rambuncious as our Beagle was. She is laid back. She did nip at heels for a short time, but we worked on that in puppy class and followed their advice & it worked itself out quickly.

Do what is best for your family! We also got our dog right before a wedding ( had been looking for awhile & this fell into our lap) My DIS took the dog overnight for us and all was fine. If you do get this puppy, make sure you have someone lined up who can take care of it while you are on vacation or see if the breeder will hold it for you. My parents did this with their last dog -- the breeder kept it a couple extra weeks and charged them a small fee for food, next set of shots, etc.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Wendy, in reading your updates and further comments I'm a little worried for you. Between this and your other thread I feel as if you have a fantasy in your mind about the puppy and dog experience. You seem to want an ideal that probably doesn't exist. At least not with 100% certainty when getting a puppy. (I would go back and quote all of your "wants" but I don't have time today!)

Dogs are like people in that they are highly individual - even within the same breed. For example, you want a dog that your daughter can whisper her secrets to and that will curl up with you on the sofa. And further, you have to have a *young* puppy to start off this experience.

This and the other things you envision may or may not happen. And further, it's an awfully high expectation to put on any dog coming into your home. I mean, most people, even if they like a particular breed like I and many of us here do, keep an open mind when a dog comes into their home. They have some expecation of size and temperament, etc, but individual personality differences are part of what's charming about dogs (usually, lol).

See, dogs do what they want to do, not necessarily what you want them to do. I also love a dog who'll sit up on the sofa with me but unfortunately, unless my "nephew" Golden Retriver or Jack Russell Terrier are around, that won't be happening with my Shepherd - she doesn't like to sit on the couch with anyone. Sure, I can get her to come up, but it won't be a warm and fuzzy experience. She'll be pulling away and itching to jump down the whole time. She'll mind me, but I know her heart's not in it. And as much as she loves my children, she doesn't particularly like anyone whispering in her ear, either! So if she'd come to you as a puppy you may have been disappointed.

Like you, I also had high expectations of my current dog when I got her as a puppy. She came to me when I was in the midst of cancer treatment, and my plan was to do therapy work with her in oncology. I had what it takes - I'm a nurse, a cancer survivor, a hobby dog trainer, and I actually either work or have worked in the hospitals I planned to take her to. Additionally, I chose her in part because her father had earned both his Canine Good Citizen and Therapy Dogs International certifications and was an established, working therapy dog. Good start, right? Imagine my disappointment when I realized this would not be a possibility with her because of her reactivity to other dogs - which did NOT show itself when she was a puppy. (I actually brought my older male Shepherd with us when we were choosing her and she adored him, so that was a good sign, too, right?) Ultimately, I had to change my own expectations and accept her for who she was and not who I wanted her to be. And as I mentioned before, this wasn't an easy thing given her high maintenance personality when she was young. In her own way, she's taught me a lot of lessons (and maybe, for whatever reason, those were the lessons I needed to learn and she actually did me a favor - who knows). But seven years later I can't imagine my life without her and am awfully glad she's mine. I have given her my heart and soul in the time I've put into her, just as she's given me hers. As I said, I love her to pieces - for who she is. (She just came to check on me and gave me a little kiss and is now nuzzling our new hamster! I'd like to see most dogs do that! Ha!) But man, did I work my tush off with her!

Now this, in contrast, to the other dog - the adult dog the rescue wouldn't let us have because my kids were too young. She absolutely had the personality for what I was trying to accomplish. She was 5 yrs old with a very established, very sweet personality. She'd lived with a foster family and it was clear who she was, which added to my disappointment when she went to someone else. I am still sad about it because I really wanted to help her (besides needing a home, she had a seizure disorder) and I really felt in my heart she would have been a great addition to our family.

But at any rate, that is the beauty of adopting an older dog. You know what you're getting. Others here have said how great it is to have a dog that fits in well with your family. A true joy. As opposed at the potential nightmare it can be when you have the wrong dog.

The difficulty of having the wrong dog can't be understated. We had a lady in our training club who was elderly and frail, yet had a young, not only active, but extremely HYPERACTIVE young Border Collie. The dog would be jumping back and forth between the back seat and the front seat WHILE SHE WAS DRIVING, sometimes even jumping on HER while she was driving. I still chuckle when I think of the trainer shaking his head and saying, "Definitely the wrong dog for her". Um, yeah. It should be obvious but it isn't always.

A pp mentioned it and I'll have to agree - tiny, adorable puppyhood goes by VERY fast, like in the blink of an eye. And then you're left with an adolescent dog who's a big old pain in the butt. Cute, but annoying. The REAL joys of dog ownership come when the dog calms down around age 3, IMO.

I think it's silly to think that you can only love a puppy. One day with the greatest dog on the planet, ie the RIGHT dog for you, and you will be completely head over heels in love, regardless of the age.

I can't stress this enough: with your OWN toddler to deal with, your life will be oodles easier with an older dog than with a puppy. Others have described it well so I won't describe it again. All I can say is puppyhood can be utterly exhausting and exasperating. But it is your choice. I wouldn't worry one iota about hurting anyone's feelings here re breeders. They may be nice now while they're selling you something, but I wonder how nice they'll be if you find out the dog has problems? I'd venture to guess not so nice. We've seen these stories here before. And I'm not a big believer in "guarantees". I mean, what are you going to do, turn in the dog for another? After you've already had the dog and your kids are in love with him? And what do you think his fate will be when he goes back to said breeder?

 

[RachaelA]

Wendy, in reading your updates and further comments I'm a little worried for you. Between this and your other thread I feel as if you have a fantasy in your mind about the puppy and dog experience. You seem to want an ideal that probably doesn't exist. At least not with 100% certainty when getting a puppy. (I would go back and quote all of your "wants" but I don't have time today!)

Totally agree with this. Honestly, you are in for a rude awakening with a puppy (anyone is, but especially if you have all these big dreams for this dog). I just think you are going to be highly disappointed when this dog doesn't fit the mold you are making for it.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

One other thing I wanted to mention about "doggy smell". Well, first, I find it a bit ironic coming from a cat owner since litter boxes aren't exactly fragrant.

Dogs that are clean and healthy shouldn't smell. Dogs that have poor hygeine, gingivitis, anal gland problems, skin and/or other health issues can become stinky, but prevention and/or prompt attention to the health of the dog can keep these in check.

I also can't agree more with the pp who mentioned that most dogs aren't going to be happy living mostly in the house with little exercise and mind stimulation. And if they're bored, they WILL find things to entertain themselves, and chances are excellent these will NOT be things that make owners happy and will get them into real hot water in the household.

Committment to making the dog a real part of the household and daily physical and mental stimulation will give you the best shot at a happy living situation for all.

Don't forget to pick up a copy of Good Owners, Great Dogs when you get Childproofing Your Dog (same authors)! If you want to make it a threesome, they also wrote a book for puppies called My Smart Puppy.

 

[cappygirl]

I just wanted to add:

You mention possibly puppy growing up with your youngest-who right now is like a puppy.

It can be a beautiful thing for a child to grow up like that with a dog. when my DD was a little over 2 months old, we had to put my dog to sleep-cancer. DH at the time HAD to have a puppy for DD to grow up with. Our puppy was a month younger then my DD.

He was teething, she was teething, she was in diapers, he was trying to learn how to house train, it isn't for the weak.

Some people have this "idea" of what puppyhood or getting a dog is like, seeing the closeness in a movie, but it's going to be some effort of work.

Going through this now! We have a 16 month old DD and a 3 month old Saint Bernard. I'm EXHAUSTED!!! But happy
Although, my DH works from home. Without his help during the day, I think I would have ripped all of my hair out by now.

 

[jrmasm]

I agree. This whole thread just makes me so sad. There are so many wonderful dogs that deserve a home in shelters. I would never consider spending that much on a dog before I went and looked at the shelters. I have three labs and they are part of our family. My first lab is from a shelter and is AKC registered. I couldn't imagine him ever being put down because someone thought he was "less of a dog" for being in a shelter. He's 8 years old and still acts like he's 3.

I have 4 dogs. 3 came from rescues. I don't see anything wrong purchasing a puppy from a responsible breeder.

But to keep this on topic, my youngest dog came from a breeder at 10 weeks. It had been 17 years since I had had a puppy. It will likely be another 17 years before I get another puppy!

 

[LuLuO]

Totally agree with this. Honestly, you are in for a rude awakening with a puppy (anyone is, but especially if you have all these big dreams for this dog). I just think you are going to be highly disappointed when this dog doesn't fit the mold you are making for it.

It is hard not to have all of these expectations, but you have to be prepared to throw some or all of those expectations out the window. Puppies and dogs aren't all sunshine and rainbows. 99% of the time they are hard work and expensive (grooming, training, vet). I think OP may be setting herself up for a big disappointment and unfortunately the one that will suffer most is the dog. I hope I'm wrong. At least OP is asking great questions and researching. Most people don't bother.

Also, I have a shelter dog, a senior girl adopted three years ago, but I see nothing wrong with going to a reputable breeder. I know with having had a young child when I went looking for a dog three years ago that many rescues and shelters refuse to adopt to families with young children. I can't tell you how many petfinder pets I called on and rescues I called that flat out refused me once they heard I had an 8 month old baby. Having worked as a groomer for quite a while, this really upset me because I totally knew what I was getting into and really wanted to give an unwanted dog a home. I thought I was going to end up having to go to a breeder.

But it all worked out because I finally found a kill shelter that was willing to adopt to me and found the best dog ever (though not perfect by a long shot...lol). She has health problems, and at first we didn't think she was going to make it because she was in such bad shape, but it worked out. When I took her in for her first visit to our vet, the vet held Bella's head in her hands and said "Baby, you hit the jackpot." Really though, we were the ones who hit the jackpot. What a wonderful girl she is.

 

[Belle0101]

According to what I've read, an 8 week old puppy needs to go out every 3 hours , & 12 week old puppy needs to go out every 4 hours!

You're going to need to take a puppy out more than 3 or 4 times a day. (Averaging being up 12 hours, going out every 4 hours.) Our adult dogs each go out at least 4 times a day, easily. Let alone a puppy who is not house trained.

DH gets up at 5AM and they all go out.
I get up at 7AM and they all go out.
They eat at 9AM and then they all go out.
Noon or so and one of them will need out so I let them all out.
They eat at 5PM and go out again.
Around 7PM they go out.
9PM or so and DH lets them out before he goes to bed.
11Pm or so and I let them out before I go to bed.

That's 8 times on a normal day. Never mind if one of them is sick or bored and really wants to be running around the yard.

Mine are, in years, 8, 7 two are 6, and the youngest is 3.

Could they hold it longer than that? Sure but this way I avoid accidents of any kind in the house. If they don't get let out when they alert then it's the owner's fault.