Dog Behavior Question

[kilee]

Okay- so I posted earlier that we brought home our new furbaby. She's a 5 yr old Shih Tzu that came from a rescue group. From what I was told and the pieces I've been able to put into place w/ some research on her background. Right before the holiday's she was rescued as part of a huge local media story from a puppy mill. There was 70 some dogs rescued that were starving, matted beyond recognition, and living in cages w/ waste inches thick. They had been living this way for years. (I do not know how long she was there or if she's been there since she was a puppy) I was reading the stories from the newspaper archives tonight. Anyhow, she was cleaned up and placed up for adoption from the SPCA. A couple adopts her-- and after what couldn't be more than a month literally "dumps her" at a women's house they know fosters for a rescue group because she's "not able to be trainned". That takes us to now.

So, we brought her home today. She didn't want to go w/ me (it broke my heart because she was sad about leaving). The foster mom had told me she was going to be real timid, but to give her time and she'd come around. She had started to do so w/ them. That was understandable.

Anyhow, I cannot get near her w/o her snapping and seriously biting at me. Not even to put a leash on to take her outside to potty. I've tried many different angles, but as soon as I put a hand, arm, or body part within 8-12 inches she lunges and bites. So, anyone have any advice on how to start the baby steps w/ getting her to trust me. Unfortunately, she's biting for keeps- and is coming close to breaking skin--so we're treading lightly here. But she needs to go out.... . She breaks my heart becaue I know she's sad and scared. I tried treats too, but she could of cared less, that was getting me anywhere either. I spent about an hour trying to coax her out of her crate, which failed. I tried to "ignore her" to let her come out on her own, but she didn't. When she was out, before I brought it in the house (it came w/ her from the Foster Mom's) she was backing herself into a corner and responding the same way.

I'd love any advice because I'd like to make at least the baby step to be able to approach her to take her outside to potty. Thanks for any and all suggestions.

 

[Cruisin]

I really have no experience with dogs at all. I feel bad for the poor sweetheart. She must be so scared and bewildered at all that has happened to her lately.

Do you have a safe fenced yard that you could take the whole cage out to. Maybe she would get out and go for you then. Probably not since the cage is her security blanket I'm thinking.

I sure hope that you can help her to adjust and give her a good life.

 

[kilee]

We don't have a fenced yard. She has to go out on a leash (but this is how she was going out at her foster home she's been at). I am so sure she's confused and stressed. I just want to make it all better for her, and I know that will take time. For the moment I just want to show her where the water and food are. Also, I want to show her where to potty. She's hunkered down in her crate, so I'm going to let her stay there for the night. She's actually sleeping soundly, so in the morning I'll try again. She was okay w/ my ds on the car ride home (he's 13). He held her the whole 45 minute ride home and she just snuggled down....so I know there's a sweet girl in there.

 

[C.Ann]

That's a tough one if she's snapping at you so badly and won't even accept a treat..

Maybe a call to your vet is in order.. Perhaps they could suggest something.. Sounds like she must have been terribly abused - poor thing..

 

[Obi-Wan Pinobi]

I'm not a training expert but I think if you try to force her to go outside or try to force putting on a leash at this point you are going to take more steps backwards than forward.

Can you put the crate in a small enclosed room where you can line the floor with newspaper and just let her have the night to get used to her situation? Maybe go in every now and then and just sit on the floor nearby.. don't try to touch her.. just talk to her really softly in an uplifting voice.

The poor little thing must be so terrified from all the horrible things she has lived through in her short life.

 

[Aimeedyan]

Poor baby! How long has it been since she came to your house? A few days?

I'd give her a few days to adjust and learn to trust you. She is beyond scared and overwhelmed - what a whirlwind life she's had lately. This is why puppy mills infuriate me so much and I can't believe people still buy from them!!!

You could also check into a behaviorist that can come to your home. The rescue or shelter should be able to point you in a good direction or your vet can help. The foster mom would be a great resource, too. Don't hestitate to call her for advice - she has, likely, dealt with lots of animals that came from her background and may know of some things to suggest.

Obviously she's able to trust someone and get used to a place because she did that with the foster mom. Talk to the foster mom about it - foster parents are usually anxious to help because they want a new family to really succeed.

I feel for you right now.. how tough!

 

[Cruisin]

Did you have your son try to take her out, carefully of course.

Maybe she will react better to him, for whatever reason

I think you are probably right to just let her be for the night. She's probably emotionally and physically exhausted. Maybe if you give her time to adjust to the new sounds and smells and sights of your home, she will be in a better frame of mind in the morning.

Good luck. I hope it all turns out well for you.

 

[Aimeedyan]

I just saw that she came home today. I'd set her up a space of her own for the night, at least, and attempt again tomorrow. Put paper or something down in case she knows how to potty that way (though I NEVER advocate paper training, you may not have a choice tonight but to offer that), a bowl of food, and some water. Maybe even some peanut butter or something else yummy so she knows she's being a good girl.

I'd open the crate so she can get out and get to those items and just leave her in a room for the night. She might surprise you and be good to be leashing in the morning - and I agree that your son may be worth a shot at approaching her. maybe with a good treat, she may just really bond to him first since he rode and cuddled with her on the way home. Never know!

 

[horseshowmom]

I'm not a training expert but I think if you try to force her to go outside or try to force putting on a leash at this point you are going to take more steps backwards than forward.

Can you put the crate in a small enclosed room where you can line the floor with newspaper and just let her have the night to get used to her situation? Maybe go in every now and then and just sit on the floor nearby.. don't try to touch her.. just talk to her really softly in an uplifting voice.

The poor little thing must be so terrified from all the horrible things she has lived through in her short life.

I'm certainly not a training expert either, but I've dealt with more than one scared animal, and I think this is your best advice at this point. Pushing it isn't going to help and will only make her more frightened. Good luck, I'll be praying for you both!

 

[TurboKitty]

The bruised dogger I got close to was very different than yours....


My Penny dog was a 10 month old german shepard, used to being bottom dog of the pack. I went into her dog run with her..and read a book. (Ignore her theory.) When she'd creep up to me, I'd hum (I chose the Beatles "Penny Lane" as a theme for her).

I do think the humming helped her become accustumed to my voice. Though my Penny is very different, she was a bittersweet success.

She won quite a few dog shows and started to accumulate champion points...then my step Fonster sold her to strangers...and she died of basically a broken heart, at almost age 2. Her name was Pandora...but she was always my Penny Lane.

 

[kilee]

Well, she refuses to come out of the crate. Even if left all alone. I went so far as ds, me, and our current dog went for a walk this morning. I left her door wide open- and set up the camera (in a distance) because I wanted to see if she'd come out. NOPE. She hasn't gone to the bathroom in well over 12 hours because you can't get her out of her crate. Even if you leave her be, she won't come out. She's been in there snarling from the back the minute she hears our voices.

I contacted a few people I know who might have some suggestions, including my adoption counselor. The foster mom, I don't know, my opinion was not the highest (I'm sorry). She came off as the type that would say anything to adopt the dog. I actually asked contradicting statements at one point and she said "yes" to both of them. She told me the dog walks fine on a leash-- at her house yesterday she couldn't get the dog to walk on a leash. I am all for training. BUT as of this morning she has me at my wit's end. She has actually bitten me 4 times now and she went to bite ds's arm then face when he moved away. This is full on biting (the kind that hurts and is gonna break skin).

 

[The Mystery Machine]

OK, you are in a battle of wills with a Shih Tzu.

Do not reach into the crate. Dump her out. Keep tilting it until she slides out. Have a shield ready and a leash in the other.

Make a slip knot, similiar to what a dog catcher uses. Once she is frozen and snarling lower the loop carefully to get the leash around her.
A good way to do this is to use the other end of the leash, make a slipknot.

Once you got her just let her struggle for how ever long it takes. Just stand there. Don't do anything. No touching, eye contact, no talking, nothing. Just let her fight it.

Eventually she will stop, then open the door and start walking her outside. Wear her out......Walk her often, don't give her contact, treats, pets, nothing yet. Just basic food, water, walks and potty breaks.

 

[Disney Doll]

It's going to take patience. She has to get used to you. She's alone, scared, and has been through a lot for a little one.

Eventually she's going to have to pee, poop, eat. Animals are survivalist, so she will not starve herslef to death. You may have to do exactly what Turbokitty did. Put her crate in a room, paper the floor, put food & water in there too, leave the crate door open, and sit quietly reading or whatever. When she comes out to investigate, and she will, hum softly so she gets used to the sound of your voice. No sudden movements. You can't appear to be a threat to her, which,, right now, you are every time you go near the crate, because she doesn't know what you are going to do. You have no idea what other folks who have gone near her crate in the past have done to her, so she may very well be terrified of anyone who comes near her crate. You have to let her come to you. And you have to be very gentle and careful, and patient. This is not going to happen overnight.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Just wanted to give a note of support for your efforts. I agree this dog has had a rough life. However, from your perspective, it is very difficult to be in that situation (it happened to me once as well with a dog I rescued). In a way I'm surprised a rescue group would adopt out a dog that has behavioral issues this severe. If it were a larger dog (one whose bites could do more damage) I would think he would have been "humanely euthanzied" - despite the tragedy of the situation.

Now that the dog is with you and you are willing to make an effort with him, I agree that setting him up in an area and leaving him alone to "settle in" would probably be the wisest course. Anything more is going to put him into defensive mode, and rightfully so, from his perspective. I would be very hesitant to let my son go near him, unless the dog came to him first. Even then, I'd be careful (sounds like he could take off a nice chunk of your son's face with that aggressive bite; we don't know at this point if he's an "unprovoked" biter or not, and/or you never know what could set him off). I have the feeling after a few days things may start to get better. However, you may have to decide if you can live with a dog this unstable if things don't turn around significantly. It is a tough situation, and I feel for you. I'm even sadder for the dog.

I would be careful with any "trainers" unless it's someone you know for sure uses good, humane methods. If you have a major veterinary teaching hospital nearby they often have behaviorists on staff whose opinions you can trust (though keep in mind it may not be the opinion you want to hear). I'd see what the vet has to say as well, definitely an exam is warranted, he may have something physically wrong that is bothering him (you'll likely have to sedate him for that).

Good luck, I really hope you can work it out. Keep us updated, will you?

 

[Tigger&Belle]

What did the adoption counselor say?

 

[hiwaygal]

kilee...sent you a PM...

 

[doxdogy]

It is going to take time and more time and patience. Chances are she has had little to no human contact. When we bought Buddy home he was an extremely shy little guy. He did not snap, but he would not come near us. We later found out from the breeder that he had spent the first year of his life outside in run. It took a lot of talking to him in a calm voice almost sing song voice. Sitting on the floor near him and telling him what a wonderful little guy he was. It took almost a year to get him out of his shell. Now he is one of the most loving dogs in the house.

Do as suggested earlier, leave the crate door open and just sit there and talk to her. If possible lay on the floor in the front of the crate. I wish you luck in your endeavor. It is obvious that you really care about the pup and want to give her a good home.

 

[Aimeedyan]

Poor baby. She probably has never had a human be nice to her until she was rescued from that place. And never had a real home... so sad.

It's not even been 24 hours yet so I'd just continue to give her space and freedom to leave if she wants. A dog won't starve itself so she will eventually come out to eat. Now pottying is another issue since she's used to sitting in her own waste but you can work with training her out of that later.

Contact your vet and ask for their opinion - see if they have a behavorist they can recommend. I would also make an appt for Monday to bring her in and establish a relationship there as well - though I'm sure the rescue had a vet check her, it would be worth having your vet do that as well.

Good luck! You're a great person to do this...

 

[kilee]

First I want to thank everyone for the suggestions and PM's. I eventually had to take DS to his father's and drop him off. I did end up closing the door on her crate while we left. In some ways-- I felt terrible- but it really did change things. I was gone for just a short time. She had finally pee'd in the crate and of course all over her. Well, she HATED it. When I got home she was standing at the door of her crate crying. I let her out- and for some weird reason she ran right to me all covered in pee. I was so happy I picked her up anyhow. So, I sat on the floor and she sat right next to me and I pet her for a bit. I had to bathe her, and she was really great for that. She even started licking my hand (this same dog that just 2 hrs ago wanted to bite my hand off). I was still nervous because I wasn't sure if I could trust her.
She's defintely very, very, very skittish and timid. You have to walk real slow, move real slow, and talk super soft baby type talk. So, that was alittle while ago. Her crate was cleaned out and is out of her reach drying out. She's actually more outgoing w/o the crate to hide in.
My dh got home in the middle of all the cleaning (he hasn't met her yet--he works out of town). I had already brought him up to speed and he knew to come in real slow and such. Well, she went right over to him, sat at his feet, and waited to pet. He looked at me like I was loosing my mind. She likes him A LOT. She was playing with him and I just checked and they are both in the recliner- her on her back with him rubbing her belly. (I'm thinking he's really working as the "dog whisperer" on the side or something). This isn't the same dog that bit me this morning.
She's still unsure of me, I'm wondering if I remind her of someone that was awful to her???? She doesn't like Kobi (our other Shih Tzu). He tries so hard to just lay near her and she doesn't like it. BUT she really has been sweet w/ dh. He's home for the next 3 days so maybe he can break through to her alittle bit.

****I did contact the adoption counselor and the foster mom. The foster mom said she never acted that way...and that would be why they'd allow her to be adopted. I'm really thinking I HAVE to remind her of something awful. She didn't act like this for them and she's certainly great w/ dh. So, I'll just have to win her trust baby steps at a time I guess. It actually breaks my heart.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Sounds like things are looking up already! I bet you do remind her of someone. I'm glad things are better. Looking forward to hearing more updates.