Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[Maddiesmum03]

Which makes me believe that could be why the broker may be holding back the 30% right now,

Technically, the owners contract does say it’s released at check in too, If there is no check in, how does that play into this?

It is not the fault of the owner, but then does that give the owner recourse against DVC? But since they are giving points back without holding, would that be counted as a remedy?

Random thoughts here... Ugg!

Not sure Sandi, does check in mean time of check in or when renter actually arrives? Because if a random renter decided not to show for whatever reason other than this situation, would the owner still not get their 30%?
And DVC might not be putting points in holding, but not returning borrowed points to the proper use year and making them pretty much worthless is not a remedy in my eyes, or even if they are not borrowed, giving points back if they will expire before the parks and resorts re open, which is the case for others on here, is just as bad.

 

[foreUT]

Which makes me believe that could be why the broker may be holding back the 30% right now,

Technically, the owners contract does say it’s released at check in too, If there is no check in, how does that play into this?

It is not the fault of the owner, but then does that give the owner recourse against DVC? But since they are giving points back without holding, would that be counted as a remedy?

Random thoughts here... Ugg!

I can't imagine running a business without insurance, just in case some event, like this one, occurs and disrupts your business. I hope the brokers have that coverage, bc being the middleman in any scenario puts the broker at risk from both sides of the equation. Withholding funds from the Owners after the broker was paid in full and the Owner fulfilled their duties, as required, is wrong, especially if it's done to limit the broker's financial damages, IMO.

 

[Sandisw]

Not sure Sandi, does check in mean time of check in or when renter actually arrives? Because if a random renter decided not to show for whatever reason other than this situation, would the owner still not get their 30%?
And DVC might not be putting points in holding, but not returning borrowed points to the proper use year and making them pretty much worthless is not a remedy in my eyes, or even if they are not borrowed, giving points back if they will expire before the parks and resorts re open, which is the case for others on here, is just as bad.

In my opinion, check in would be defined as the ability to do it, not a renter not showing up.

In your case, check in was possible. Now thst resorts are closed, like I said, it muddy the water a lot,

If the broker feels they are going to be fighting a lot of complaints and CC disputes, they could, and speculating only, it could cause them to look for anything to give them an out?

I do agree that just holding may not really be enough...while we get it because if they put all those points back now, people will lose them later so it’s really a lose-lose situation.

Lets just hope that the holding back of the 30% is a temporary solution just to give them breathing room, to see how many people they can get reschedule, and then evaluate when they can release the funds.

 

[CarolMN]

I'm sure the brokers are doing everything they can just to stay in business. IMO, there's a good chance that some of them will end up in bankruptcy & lose the business. I would imagine that many, if not all, of David's employees (believe he has over 40) will lose their job before this is all done. Same situation many small businesses everywhere are facing right now.

I think before the COVID-19 virus is brought under control, we will all lose something - for some of us it will be the loss of our lives or those of loved ones. While I am sorry for those who will lose a vacation or $$, most of my concern is for those who lose everything.

 

[GoingSince1990]

I think it will be very interesting to see how CC companies handle the situation. As you said, the terms of the contract can’t be delivered.

If you buy a nonrefundable concert ticket, and the concert is cancelled and they refuse to refund you, you will get your money back by filing a dispute. And this is no different; when you pay in advance by credit card for something which ends up not being supplied, you will be able to successfully dispute the charge with the credit card company and get your money back, regardless of any “nonrefundable” verbiage in the contract. That’s the great thing about paying via credit card.

 

[Sandisw]

If you buy a nonrefundable concert ticket, and the concert is cancelled and they refuse to refund you, you will get your money back by filing a dispute. And this is no different; when you pay in advance by credit card for something which ends up not being supplied, you will be able to successfully dispute the charge with the credit card company and get your money back, regardless of any “nonrefundable” verbiage in the contract.

I think this is why I have felt that once the resorts were closed, even though not the owners fault, it makes the contract null and void.

But, yeah, it’s going to continue to get crazy and I do feel bad for all involved, I have a rental in August and if things are closed, I am already preparing not to get my 30% Unless I can reschedule them or re rent the points.

 

[Deb & Bill]

And, this, dear reader, is why you only buy as many DVC points as you can use personally.

 

[Sandisw]

And, this, dear reader, is why you only buy as many DVC points as you can use personally.

As well as think carefully, if you don’t have travel insurance, about planning trips late in your UY with banked and borrowed points,

 

[CraigInPA]

As an owner, I'd be upset that any broker would refuse to pay me the 30% as required by the contract when the resort was open but their renter did not show up. In this case, I did nothing wrong and the renter chose to not check in. Since the broker got 100% of the money at the time of booking, they should have the money to pay me. If I don't get that remaining 30%, the broker won't get my points to rent in the future.

As a renter, if I decided not to go because the parks were closed and the resort open, I knew what I was doing would not result in me getting a refund from the broker. My contract says no refunds. I'm really upset, however, because I booked a trip to go to the parks. It will be the last time I rent points if I can't get a refund.

As a broker, I am holding 30% for the owner, and I've collected 24% for my services on the original transaction. While I have that 30% in the bank, I have paid my staff out of the 24% and likely have little remaining. I have a renter who is upset, and an owner who is upset. The renter will likely contact their credit card company and issue a charge back. I can't win a charge back. The credit card companies always side with the credit card holder. I will need to try to make the renter happy by getting them a new reservation. In doing so, I will hopefully limit the charge backs to a small number. Because the owner has to make the reservation, and not cancel it, I will withhold the 30% until the new reservation takes place. If this doesn't last too long, I might be able to save my business.

As a serial entrepreneur with several successful start ups (one of which went public, and 3 sold pre-IPO), I feel for the broker. They are not likely to survive this if the resorts stay closed into May. Business interruption insurance doesn't cover this kind of event. The ill will created by the inability to get reservations for when the renters want them (no flower and garden, let's do food and wine instead), and the withholding of the payments to the owners, will make their business model implode. Without renters and owners, brokerage is not a viable business.

 

[Yinn]

Random thoughts here... Ugg!

Hopefully we all understand it's just discussion and brainstorming at this point in the thread.

Technically, the owners contract does say it’s released at check in too, If there is no check in, how does that play into this?

Intermediary agreement language: "balance at the time of check-in"
What's the interpretation here? Because it doesn't say balance upon check in, but rather at time of check in. Check-in time for DVC resorts is 4pm.

The website only references the day as well: "The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in."

 

[Maddiesmum03]

And, this, dear reader, is why you only buy as many DVC points as you can use personally.

I did..20 years ago when I bought into DVC flights were much more affordable from the UK and my needs and finances were different to now. Roll forward 20 years and a Disney holiday every 3 years or so is more realistic, plus, I need the money!

I do not want to sell the contract because I do still want to visit WDW/VB/HH when I can and cannot imagine doing so without the luxury of a villa. I only rent points when cash flow gets a bit tight, otherwise I would bank my points as much as possible for a mega blow out when we do come over!
This is what makes this situation particularly stressful, as much as the renter was banking on their vacation, I was banking on the rest of the rental money hitting my account this week!

 

[Yinn]

And, this, dear reader, is why you only buy as many DVC points as you can use personally.

I did exactly just that. I listened to the board, buy for what my family would need because I can't get value's and standards. Well....a 4 day vacation for 31 points at a value studio left me a lot of points to use!!!

As well as think carefully, if you don’t have travel insurance, about planning trips late in your UY with banked and borrowed points,

This was a huge lesson learned. I purposely bought a June UY because we ALWAYS go in August. Sometimes in November, but always august. We had enough points for Aug, Nov, and still had points left over. So we rented out some and booked May as well...oops.

 

[Sandisw]

Hopefully we all understand it's just discussion and brainstorming at this point in the thread.



Intermediary agreement language: "balance at the time of check-in"
What's the interpretation here? Because it doesn't say balance upon check in, but rather at time of check in. Check-in time for DVC resorts is 4pm.

The website only references the day as well: "The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in."

If the resort is closed, then for that day, is there really a check in time any more?

I think this is why, in my opinion, the contracts language could be scrutinized, , because what may have been an implied understanding of terms in the past, might have renters and/or even brokers being forced to try to become more technical with interpretations to put things in their favor,

As already discussed, renters who choose to dispute CC payments will probably win and that will severely impact the viability of this type of business. It’s just sad for all.

 

[bobbiwoz]

As someone over 70, I understand not traveling in the present conditions, even if resorts are not closed. What some of you are asking could be the reason someone could be in jeopardy.

 

[Yinn]

If the resort is closed, then for that day, is there really a check in time any more?

Valid point.

I think it's just sad the contact type as well. I know I had proactively reached out and offered to reschedule and the response I got was that the renter hasn't reached out. So now all three of us are in a wait and see game.

Now, maybe my renter doesn't want to reschedule. But if I was in direct contact with them, I would have at least been able to confirm they want to proceed. And quite frankly, I might have told them I'm willing to work with them to reschedule. If they were still insistent on keeping it, I probably would have told them my UY is coming up and that if they chose to proceed it'd be at their own risk as the points would not be capable of being reused.

In essence, they're renting points from me and not renting a resort from me. Which as I type this makes me wonder. Perhaps we're looking at this wrong or perhaps this is where the market will go. We may not be renting our rooms anymore in terms of language. We may simply be renting out points plus a service to make a reservation.

 

[Sandisw]

Valid point.

I think it's just sad the contact type as well. I know I had proactively reached out and offered to reschedule and the response I got was that the renter hasn't reached out. So now all three of us are in a wait and see game.

Now, maybe my renter doesn't want to reschedule. But if I was in direct contact with them, I would have at least been able to confirm they want to proceed. And quite frankly, I might have told them I'm willing to work with them to reschedule. If they were still insistent on keeping it, I probably would have told them my UY is coming up and that if they chose to proceed it'd be at their own risk as the points would not be capable of being reused.

In essence, they're renting points from me and not renting a resort from me. Which as I type this makes me wonder. Perhaps we're looking at this wrong or perhaps this is where the market will go. We may not be renting our rooms anymore in terms of language. We may simply be renting out points plus a service to make a reservation.

It’s true that all of this makes us evaluate things with a finer lense because we just never imagined it.

 

[MICKIMINI]

Who are we actually renting to? Aren't we actually renting to the broker who takes a cut and then assigns the points to another party? We have no way of communicating with the renter and though we offered up points to the broker, the broker assigned them to a renter, at random based on the match they made. Is the online dating service responsible for the couple who fell in love, married and then divorced? Do they get their money back? My gut says that contracts that indicate NO REFUNDS, a website that says the same, the CC's will decline to cover because there was an intermediary.

I really have no idea but have been thinking about this with everyone else...as I have two rentals coming up, though both made since this became a crisis - buyer (renter/owner) beware?

 

[Sandisw]

Who are we actually renting to? Aren't we actually renting to the broker who takes a cut and then assigns the points to another party? We have no way of communicating with the renter and though we offered up points to the broker, the broker assigned them to a renter, at random based on the match they made. Is the online dating service responsible for the couple who fell in love, married and then divorced? Do they get their money back? My gut says that contracts that indicate NO REFUNDS, a website that says the same, the CC's will decline to cover because there was an intermediary.

I really have no idea but have been thinking about this with everyone else...as I have two rentals coming up, though both made since this became a crisis - buyer (renter/owner) beware?

Remember, though, the CC company will be dealing with the broker and the renter, If the contract was for a room accommodation, and that is not delivered through not only no fault of the renter but also by not even being made available any longer, I think the renter will win the dispute, and the broker will be stuck.

I an not sure that I agree our contract with the broker is a rental of points. Points have no value. We agree to reserve a room and pay for it with points.

I am not saying that the broker losing with the CC company means it falls back on owners, but it does come down to this becoming messy all the way around.

 

[GoingSince1990]

My gut says that contracts that indicate NO REFUNDS, a website that says the same, the CC's will decline to cover because there was an intermediary.

If you bought a concert ticket on Stubhub and were told NO REFUNDS, then the concert was canceled and Stubhub refused to give you your money back, you could dispute that with the credit card company and it would be a slam-dunk win. This is similar. If you use a credit card to pay for something that is not provided through no fault of your own, you are covered, regardless of any “nonrefundable” verbiage.

 

[CarolMN]

....(snip).........As already discussed, renters who choose to dispute CC payments will probably win and that will severely impact the viability of this type of business. It’s just sad for all.

Maybe, but maybe not. I read on another board that that private vacation rentals in Florida which had to be cancelled due to weather (like hurricanes) have been taken to court and it was determined that the owner was not at fault since it was out of their control and it was on the renter to purchase travel insurance to protect themselves in a non-refundable private rental.