Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[Yinn]

I agree. Let’s be honest, owners really have no control right now in terms of getting the 30% if it’s not sent. It’d break the business, but if you have renters who begin to dispute CC with him, it could be a big mess,

I just can’t believe that renters, when they start to hear stories, that they weren’t entitled to money back when the resort room couldn’t be delivered because of closure, and that an owner gets to keep the money and the points, that it won’t leave a bad taste on the whole process,

All it will take is a few stories like that and I think the risk may not outweigh the savings.

If you lose the owners, you have no supply to rent anyway. So better to appeal to the owners first.

On the other hand, you lose the renters and you’ll lose the owners if the can’t rent. So better to appeal to the renters first.

Oh the conundrum...

 

[Sandisw]

If you lose the owners, you have no supply to rent anyway. So better to appeal to the owners first.

On the other hand, you lose the renters and you’ll lose the owners if the can’t rent. So better to appeal to the renters first.

Oh the conundrum...

So true! All I know I wouldn't want to be one of any of the brokers who have to help to explain to renters that even though a resort is closed, it counts as a no refunds situation!!

 

[cvjw]

So true! All I know I wouldn't want to be one of any of the brokers who have to help to explain to renters that even though a resort is closed, it counts as a no refunds situation!!

Or explain to owners - yes, we had a contract. No, you didn’t do anything wrong, but dvc closed the resorts, you lost your points, and now please refund all the money I gave you 11 months ago to the renters who didn’t get insurance.

 

[purplenancy27]

If I get my expiring points back which I then are unable to use due to them expiring how is that greedy if I don’t refund my renter?

I specifically said-If Disney does right by the owner

 

[Van Houten]

If you lose the owners, you have no supply to rent anyway. So better to appeal to the owners first.

On the other hand, you lose the renters and you’ll lose the owners if the can’t rent. So better to appeal to the renters first.

Oh the conundrum...

At the moment, there is plenty of supply (if we consider points, not available rooms and resorts), but demand is non-existent. And it will likely stay that way as more and more owners will be forced to defer use of their points, initially due to closures, and later because of overall economic impact on tourism.

 

[Van Houten]

No, you didn’t do anything wrong, but dvc closed the resorts, you lost your points

DVCMC closed the resorts (largely because they were forced), and the owners are now at the mercy of the rules set up by DVCMC when it comes to points expiration rules.
We continue to focus on rented points, whereas the product that was sold to the renter is not the points, but an accommodation at a specific resort on specific dates. How many points it takes to set up reservation and what type of points is necessary to do it is only relevant from the point of view of establishing initial price on the contract, which is then paid in cash to the owner via intermediary.
However, the points (home resort points or reservation points) are just a way which may be used to pay for this accommodation, assuming they have not lost their useful shelf life. Without having been converted to reservation points and attached to cover the cost of reservation, points have no value (which is not the case for the costs associated with them). More importantly, points are not the product stated in the contract between the renter and the intermediary (in which the owner's name figures prominently); this could be different for the owner's contract with the intermediary.

The Intermediary has received from Renter a NON REFUNDABLE payment of $XXXX US Dollars in return for a confirmed reservation, using Owner's Disney Vacation Club points, at XXXX in XXXX to arrive on MMDDYYYYY and depart on MMDDYYYY with a confirmation number of XXXXXXX.

Do you think there will be much argument from the point of view of a credit card company that the conditions of the renter's contract have not been met when that reservation is cancelled? And at this point, any conversations about rebooking are just good will from the perspective of a renter.

 

[Cyberc1978]

DVCMC closed the resorts (largely because they were forced), and the owners are now at the mercy of the rules set up by DVCMC when it comes to points expiration rules.

What I don’t understand is that other timeshares like HGVC in Orlando remains open. If they can keep going why can’t DVC?

 

[Cyberc1978]

I specifically said-If Disney does right by the owner

IMO seem from a Disney perspective I think they believe they are doing right by the owner by returning the points expiring or not.

 

[Van Houten]

What I don’t understand is that other timeshares like HGVC in Orlando remains open. If they can keep going why can’t DVC?

And that is the question the owner should be entitled to get an answer to, along with some accommodations for those who ended up with unused points close to expiration.
But in any scenario, this resort closure will have financial impact on the cost of operations, and as such, likely to impact all owners (unless DVCMC has an iron-clad insurance contract under their sleeve, in which case, they should take care of expiring points).

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Wow. Do you think that means if you hadn't offer to re-rent, that you'd be out the 30%? Definitely keep us posted.

I think that is their intention. This is a larger portion of that email to put it in context
“As this is a Less then Ideal situation for everyone and in an effort to try and find the best situation for all involved, we are holding off on all final 30% payments to our owners until further notice.

If we are successful in re-renting your points, you will likely receive the final 30% on the new check in date.”

I am so angry right now, because I thought I was doing the right thing by offering to rebook for the renters. It does not help that I had borrowed these points from Aug 20 UY and now they expire at the end of July, so there is a good possibility that if this COVID situation continues, no one will want to travel before then even if the parks and resorts reopen, but this should not really be on me. I am assuming that David’s mean if no one wants to rent the points, I lose the money they owed me and should have paid to me on Monday.
My thoughts right now (and what kept me awake all night!) are these;
1. I fulfilled my contract by booking the reservation, sorting Disney dining, and paying my dues. The resort was open for buisness on Monday and will not close until Friday when the renters would have checked out. I did not cancel the reservation, Disney did that automatically. This contract with David’s ended on Monday.

2.David’s did not fulfil their contract with me by not paying me. Would it not be a New contract with them if they now want to try to re rent those points?

3.Could it not be said that now those points are almost worthless in terms of staying at Disney/re rental value? If I put the value on them now as 30% of the original 2020 UY points, then the points are mine to do with what I want in lieu of the money owed? I guess my only option would be to convert them into a RCI booking. Being UK based, there is no other way I could use them.

As it stands right now David’s is in receipt of 30% of my money, not to mention the $5 per point or whatever it is they add on to the rental fee. If they return this money to the renter, then they have a good proportion of the amount they paid back. As this was a no refund transaction and insurance was advised (for all I know they took insurance, and can claim) then that is not such a bad deal.

I need clarification from David’s about the 30%. If they do not intend to pay me, then I am not prepared to take things further with them. I have another contract coming to fruition on April 19th. I just hope the resorts are open by then. As things stand, I will not cancel this reservation, thus ending my contract with David’s, I will let it ride until check in day and again fight for my 30%.
So much for doing the right thing. Sorry for the long rant.

 

[Yinn]

At the moment, there is plenty of supply (if we consider points, not available rooms and resorts), but demand is non-existent. And it will likely stay that way as more and more owners will be forced to defer use of their points, initially due to closures, and later because of overall economic impact on tourism.

You’re talking points supply. I’m talking about owner supply to a broker.

A broker that pisses off owners will eventually lose owners and thus supply to sell to renters regardless of how many points are in the system.

 

[poofyo101]

I think that is their intention. This is a larger portion of that email to put it in context
“As this is a Less then Ideal situation for everyone and in an effort to try and find the best situation for all involved, we are holding off on all final 30% payments to our owners until further notice.

If we are successful in re-renting your points, you will likely receive the final 30% on the new check in date.”

I am so angry right now, because I thought I was doing the right thing by offering to rebook for the renters. It does not help that I had borrowed these points from Aug 20 UY and now they expire at the end of July, so there is a good possibility that if this COVID situation continues, no one will want to travel before then even if the parks and resorts reopen, but this should not really be on me. I am assuming that David’s mean if no one wants to rent the points, I lose the money they owed me and should have paid to me on Monday.
My thoughts right now (and what kept me awake all night!) are these;
1. I fulfilled my contract by booking the reservation, sorting Disney dining, and paying my dues. The resort was open for buisness on Monday and will not close until Friday when the renters would have checked out. I did not cancel the reservation, Disney did that automatically. This contract with David’s ended on Monday.

2.David’s did not fulfil their contract with me by not paying me. Would it not be a New contract with them if they now want to try to re rent those points?

3.Could it not be said that now those points are almost worthless in terms of staying at Disney/re rental value? If I put the value on them now as 30% of the original 2020 UY points, then the points are mine to do with what I want in lieu of the money owed? I guess my only option would be to convert them into a RCI booking. Being UK based, there is no other way I could use them.

As it stands right now David’s is in receipt of 30% of my money, not to mention the $5 per point or whatever it is they add on to the rental fee. If they return this money to the renter, then they have a good proportion of the amount they paid back. As this was a no refund transaction and insurance was advised (for all I know they took insurance, and can claim) then that is not such a bad deal.

I need clarification from David’s about the 30%. If they do not intend to pay me, then I am not prepared to take things further with them. I have another contract coming to fruition on April 19th. I just hope the resorts are open by then. As things stand, I will not cancel this reservation, thus ending my contract with David’s, I will let it ride until check in day and again fight for my 30%.
So much for doing the right thing. Sorry for the long rant.

I agree with everything you said.
David's made the contract non refundable on both sides. If you did the best you could to rebook for someone. David's needs to reimburse the renter, not you. That is the risk of the business that they are in. IMO

 

[TheWheel]

I think that is their intention. This is a larger portion of that email to put it in context
“As this is a Less then Ideal situation for everyone and in an effort to try and find the best situation for all involved, we are holding off on all final 30% payments to our owners until further notice.

If we are successful in re-renting your points, you will likely receive the final 30% on the new check in date.”

I am so angry right now, because I thought I was doing the right thing by offering to rebook for the renters. It does not help that I had borrowed these points from Aug 20 UY and now they expire at the end of July, so there is a good possibility that if this COVID situation continues, no one will want to travel before then even if the parks and resorts reopen, but this should not really be on me. I am assuming that David’s mean if no one wants to rent the points, I lose the money they owed me and should have paid to me on Monday.
My thoughts right now (and what kept me awake all night!) are these;
1. I fulfilled my contract by booking the reservation, sorting Disney dining, and paying my dues. The resort was open for buisness on Monday and will not close until Friday when the renters would have checked out. I did not cancel the reservation, Disney did that automatically. This contract with David’s ended on Monday.

2.David’s did not fulfil their contract with me by not paying me. Would it not be a New contract with them if they now want to try to re rent those points?

3.Could it not be said that now those points are almost worthless in terms of staying at Disney/re rental value? If I put the value on them now as 30% of the original 2020 UY points, then the points are mine to do with what I want in lieu of the money owed? I guess my only option would be to convert them into a RCI booking. Being UK based, there is no other way I could use them.

As it stands right now David’s is in receipt of 30% of my money, not to mention the $5 per point or whatever it is they add on to the rental fee. If they return this money to the renter, then they have a good proportion of the amount they paid back. As this was a no refund transaction and insurance was advised (for all I know they took insurance, and can claim) then that is not such a bad deal.

I need clarification from David’s about the 30%. If they do not intend to pay me, then I am not prepared to take things further with them. I have another contract coming to fruition on April 19th. I just hope the resorts are open by then. As things stand, I will not cancel this reservation, thus ending my contract with David’s, I will let it ride until check in day and again fight for my 30%.
So much for doing the right thing. Sorry for the long rant.

Your situation is very different from some of the others on the board. You should be getting 100% of your funds as the agreed accommodations were available to the renter. Anything prior to the resort shutdowns should be considered that the owner fulfilled their obligation. This changes for those that have reservations during the closure period as they are unable to provide the agreed upon accommodations and therefore renters are due a refund.

 

[Disneyepcot]

My Disney Chase Visa card claim department just took a claim from me, the renter, for the funds I charged to rent a room March 25-27 that is now not available due to Disney closure. I truly only called them for information on a possible future claim but they recommended that I submit the claim and let them and David's work it out together. Therefore we do not know what will happen but we will wait and see.

 

[MIndy S]

My Disney Chase Visa card claim department just took a claim from me, the renter, for the funds I charged to rent a room March 25-27 that is now not available due to Disney closure. I truly only called them for information on a possible future claim but they recommended that I submit the claim and let them and David's work it out together. Therefore we do not know what will happen but we will wait and see.

Please update on what happens with your claim. I am scheduled for a rental at VB in early June and am started to really worry about losing those funds. I am hoping the resorts will reopen by then, but looking at what has happened in other countries, it is probably more likely that they will still be closed. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about losing that money.

We did book "Cancel for any Reason" travel insurance through another party, but it doesn't look like it covers a situation where the accommodations are unavailable for reasons other than the "covered" reasons (etc. weather).

 

[Yinn]

My Disney Chase Visa card claim department just took a claim from me, the renter, for the funds I charged to rent a room March 25-27 that is now not available due to Disney closure. I truly only called them for information on a possible future claim but they recommended that I submit the claim and let them and David's work it out together. Therefore we do not know what will happen but we will wait and see.

This will be interesting.

What most likely will happen is they’ll initiate with Davids for proof of supplied goods/service. Davids will most likely not be able to provide that but will be able to point to the contract establishment. That might work for a couple of them, but I’d imagine there’s a limit of scale. They may not be able to respond to all credit card claims in a pre-defined time window which results in the claim being in the card holders favor.

Alternatively, the trip insurance clause can be considered for Chase/Disney card holders, but it specifies that cancellations are not covered under the trip insurance. But there is an out for anyone who is sick

What IS covered:

• Accidental bodily injury, loss of life, or sickness experienced by the Cardholder, a traveling companion or an immediate family member of the Cardholder or a traveling companion

So if you follow the card travel insurance rules and get a note from a physician that it’s not medically advisable to travel, notify the appropriate parties etc. Then you may still be able to claim travel insurance from your credit card even if you didn’t buy it separately.

Its not a solution for everyone, but it’s a potential solution for some l and figured I’d point it out.

 

[Sandisw]

I think that is their intention. This is a larger portion of that email to put it in context
“As this is a Less then Ideal situation for everyone and in an effort to try and find the best situation for all involved, we are holding off on all final 30% payments to our owners until further notice.

If we are successful in re-renting your points, you will likely receive the final 30% on the new check in date.”

I am so angry right now, because I thought I was doing the right thing by offering to rebook for the renters. It does not help that I had borrowed these points from Aug 20 UY and now they expire at the end of July, so there is a good possibility that if this COVID situation continues, no one will want to travel before then even if the parks and resorts reopen, but this should not really be on me. I am assuming that David’s mean if no one wants to rent the points, I lose the money they owed me and should have paid to me on Monday.
My thoughts right now (and what kept me awake all night!) are these;
1. I fulfilled my contract by booking the reservation, sorting Disney dining, and paying my dues. The resort was open for buisness on Monday and will not close until Friday when the renters would have checked out. I did not cancel the reservation, Disney did that automatically. This contract with David’s ended on Monday.

2.David’s did not fulfil their contract with me by not paying me. Would it not be a New contract with them if they now want to try to re rent those points?

3.Could it not be said that now those points are almost worthless in terms of staying at Disney/re rental value? If I put the value on them now as 30% of the original 2020 UY points, then the points are mine to do with what I want in lieu of the money owed? I guess my only option would be to convert them into a RCI booking. Being UK based, there is no other way I could use them.

As it stands right now David’s is in receipt of 30% of my money, not to mention the $5 per point or whatever it is they add on to the rental fee. If they return this money to the renter, then they have a good proportion of the amount they paid back. As this was a no refund transaction and insurance was advised (for all I know they took insurance, and can claim) then that is not such a bad deal.

I need clarification from David’s about the 30%. If they do not intend to pay me, then I am not prepared to take things further with them. I have another contract coming to fruition on April 19th. I just hope the resorts are open by then. As things stand, I will not cancel this reservation, thus ending my contract with David’s, I will let it ride until check in day and again fight for my 30%.
So much for doing the right thing. Sorry for the long rant.

This really stinks, Like you said, in your case, the renters could have gone and the resort was open. I definitely see this as a breach because ultimately it was their choice.

With the resorts closed, I think that is where it gets muddy. I know could criticized but the fact that they are holding off payments leads me to believe they may feel that there is wiggle room in the owners contract that will allow them to claim that because there was no “check in”...which is when it says you get the 30%..and it just says “failure” to deliver the room...and doesn’t define that failure in the contract...that owners are not entitled to that final payment.

This entire thing means that owners could be left with losses, along with the renters, when it is all sorted out.

Your case, though, to me, is clear cut, because the reservation, occurred during the time it was open, and there should be no question you get your money,

The other aspect, I wonder, is if they are preparing for a lot of angry renters who believe that this situation falls outside the no refunds clause and the potential they will dispute charge on credit card,

I completely sympathize with your situation. Like you said, with that reservation during an open time, they should be giving you the money.

 

[foreUT]

Credit card companies err on the side of the card holder. As the owner of a short term rental and familiar w the charge back process in my own (somewhat similar) industry, the card holder will easily win the dispute, if no accommodations were available. That's a slam dunk, bc the cc company wants to please their cardholder.

 

[Sandisw]

DVCMC closed the resorts (largely because they were forced), and the owners are now at the mercy of the rules set up by DVCMC when it comes to points expiration rules.
We continue to focus on rented points, whereas the product that was sold to the renter is not the points, but an accommodation at a specific resort on specific dates. How many points it takes to set up reservation and what type of points is necessary to do it is only relevant from the point of view of establishing initial price on the contract, which is then paid in cash to the owner via intermediary.
However, the points (home resort points or reservation points) are just a way which may be used to pay for this accommodation, assuming they have not lost their useful shelf life. Without having been converted to reservation points and attached to cover the cost of reservation, points have no value (which is not the case for the costs associated with them). More importantly, points are not the product stated in the contract between the renter and the intermediary (in which the owner's name figures prominently); this could be different for the owner's contract with the intermediary.

Do you think there will be much argument from the point of view of a credit card company that the conditions of the renter's contract have not been met when that reservation is cancelled? And at this point, any conversations about rebooking are just good will from the perspective of a renter.

I think it will be very interesting to see how CC companies handle the situation. As you said, the terms of the contract can’t be delivered.

 

[Sandisw]

Credit card companies err on the side of the card holder. As the owner of a short term rental and familiar w the charge back process in my own (somewhat similar) industry, the card holder will easily win the dispute, if no accommodations were available. That's a slam dunk, bc the cc company wants to please their cardholder.

Which makes me believe that could be why the broker may be holding back the 30% right now,

Technically, the owners contract does say it’s released at check in too, If there is no check in, how does that play into this?

It is not the fault of the owner, but then does that give the owner recourse against DVC? But since they are giving points back without holding, would that be counted as a remedy?

Random thoughts here... Ugg!