Does anyone honest to goodness tithe?

[Cool-Beans]

Giving money to God (via the church or whatever other means) is just one part of being a Christian.

This is my problem with it. Nobody is giving anything to God. Saying, "via the church" implies that the money is going to God through the church. It isn't. There is no monetary exchange rate for Heaven, no address to which we can mail a check, and no account to which we can wire the money. God sure isn't showing up to personally accept it...probably because God doesn't need money.

When we give, we give it to the church. Saying that we're "giving to God" is false...and that makes me feel like someone is trying to con me into believing something that isn't true.

And saying that people shouldn't worry about their own needs, but give freely, because "God will provide," while asking them to worry about the church's needs is illogical. If individual people don't have to worry, because God is going to provide, then the church doesn't have to worry, either. Certainly God will provide for them, too.

The fact is that often, God doesn't provide. I dunno why, but that's the fact. This leaves a bunch of folks who need to be provided for. So, it is really nice of us to help each other out.

It seems a lot more honest (and effective, I would think) to just say, "We need the money for X and Y...please give it to us!"

I don't know anything about Consecration Sunday. We don't have that in our church. But I like the idea. Every week we get told to bring some specific item for a specific group of people, like "Socks for Mexican immigrants" or "toothbrushes for battered women in shelters." It is a pain to go shopping for church every week and I've often wished they'd just set up a fund for this, so we could contribute once a year and be done with it.

 

[Wilsonfamily4]

Yes, 10%.

 

[WDWHound]

I'm really sorry this affects good people like you, but I think the answer is simple. The crooks running many mega churches, and even some smaller ones.

When they see how much money is already flowing, including seeing how much benefit these crooks are already receiving, to be aksed to give more might be much more than the last straw. Espcailly if they have already given 10% in more than one way.

Personally I feel that it rule in helping out in your community is true in this context as well. Any time given is worth at least as much as any money given, if not more. Must be hard for people to accept that they haven given their 10% when people are not counting the time they may put in.

Likely not true for your church, but it some cases, they ignore anything but cash because time isn't legal tender.

I also have never seen anybody prove that what is said in the bible isn't something that could be translated to giving 10% which could done with money or time.

I agree that there are many crooks who cause a lot of distrust. My personal answer to this to only join a church that I trust and that has open books. This is true of all Methodist churches, which is one of the many reasons I am a Methodist.

I also a gre that the benitits of tithing are not limited to any religion or beleif, nor do I beleive the Bible claims that they are.

As for time vs money, we migh disagree a bit there. I beleive that God asks me to give out of all that I have. That mean my time AND my money, where possible. For me personally, it wouldnt work just giving one or the other. Still, its a fine point. The most important thing is to give in some form.

 

[Cool-Beans]

How do you reconcile that with Scripture? As Hound said, it's right there in the Bible.

Luke 21
The Widow's Offering
1As he looked up, Jesus saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. 3"I tell you the truth," he said, "this poor widow has put in more than all the others. 4All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on."

What caused this woman to do this?

I don't know what caused her to do that, and I have always disliked that story. If everyone did it, the church would be in a lot of trouble.

If we all gave everything we had to the church this Sunday, then on Monday, we'd all be homeless, hungry and freezing (well, you Southerners would just be homeless and hungry) and we'd all have to show up at church looking for help.

What the heck would they do then? No more money coming in the future, because the parish is tapped out, but hundreds of thousands of folks to house and feed.

Again, I'm not against giving to the church...I'm all for it. I just don't like some of the means by which the church raises money.

 

[cardaway]

As for time vs money, we migh disagree a bit there. I beleive that God asks me to give out of all that I have. That mean my time AND my money, where possible. For me personally, it wouldnt work just giving one or the other. Still, its a fine point. The most important thing is to give in some form.

Since the money is coming and going from the same place, wouldn't it be true to say that anytime the sole income comes from the church, that person is actually only giving their time?

 

[WDWHound]

This is my problem with it. Nobody is giving anything to God. Saying, "via the church" implies that the money is going to God through the church. It isn't. There is no monetary exchange rate for Heaven, no address to which we can mail a check, and no account to which we can wire the money. God sure isn't showing up to personally accept it...probably because God doesn't need money.


When we give, we give it to the church. Saying that we're "giving to God" is false...and that makes me feel like someone is trying to con me into believing something that isn't true.

I think we have a different understanding of the nature of the Church. Methodists understand the Church to be all Christians together. Together we form the Body of Christ, which serves God here on earth. In we giving to the Church as giving to God because we understand the Church is one powerful form through which God works on earth. The people who work in the church, the Church facilities, the grounds... all of these serve God by making Sunday school, church services, family night and other things possible. Giving to the Church is giving to God becuase it makes it possible for the Church to serve God.

And saying that people shouldn't worry about their own needs, but give freely, because "God will provide," while asking them to worry about the church's needs is illogical. If individual people don't have to worry, because God is going to provide, then the church doesn't have to worry, either. Certainly God will provide for them, too.

The fact is that often, God doesn't provide. I dunno why, but that's the fact. This leaves a bunch of folks who need to be provided for. So, it is really nice of us to help each other out.

I dont know if you are quoting me on this, but I never said "that people shouldn't worry about their own needs". Our Church would never say that to anyone. What we do say that you should pray and discuss your level of giving with God, and then give what you feel God calls you to give. No more, no less. I have have seen this work for both rich and poor.

As for the church having faith, it does, but its important to remember is that one of the means in which God supports the church is through its members. God will always provide somehow, and the most common means he provides is through the giving of the body (int others words, us!). The idea goes way back to the Old Testement, when a portion of the sacrifices to God were given to the Priests so that they could survive. God has called on us to give to the Church as a way of serving him since he first called his people out of Israel.

Could God provide for the church in other ways. Yes, he can and does, but he also makes it clear that we are be a part of this process.

It seems a lot more honest (and effective, I would think) to just say, "We need the money for X and Y...please give it to us!"

There is nothing dishonest about discussing the spiritual side of giving. Giving is not all about the churches need. There is a very strong scriptual foundation for the spiritual side of giving and the church would not be doing its job if it didnt teach about the gift of giving for givings sake. You have a right to disagree with that interpretation of scripture, but that doesn't make the teaching of that interpretation dishonest.

I don't know anything about Consecration Sunday. We don't have that in our church. But I like the idea. Every week we get told to bring some specific item for a specific group of people, like "Socks for Mexican immigrants" or "toothbrushes for battered women in shelters." It is a pain to go shopping for church every week and I've often wished they'd just set up a fund for this, so we could contribute once a year and be done with it.

Yup, apply this to administrative costs and you get the picture. The only difference is that you can pledge to give yearly, monthly, weekly or whatever. The goal is simply to have the money there when we need it so we don't have to keep hitting the congration up every week. Pledges allow us to do that.

 

[WDWHound]

Cool-Beans. I just wanted to add a note that I do understand what you are saying and I am not trying to pick on you. I once held very similar views as you do. The reason for my responses is that I have tried to explain to others why I know feel differently and have been met by some with responses of distrust and out and anger. They seen the idea of a spiritual side of giving as a con to get their money, but my personal experience tells me something very different.

I tend to use way too many words (I would love to have Galahad's gift of expressing a thought conceisly and elegantly), but If I had to sum up everything I have posted here into one request, it would be this: Even though you disagree with some views of the spiritual side of giving, please understand that most who express these views (included church ministers) are simply trying to share thier honest understanding with you. You dont have to agree, but at least consider that they most likely honestly beleive that giving to God and the Church is a means of growing closer to God.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

There are quite a few things that bothered us about the program. First of all was the interminable build-up. Services for the entire month of September were devoted to money grubbing. An entire month. That's regardless of whatever normal congregational business was happening during that time. So, we'd have a service that included baptisms, and the sermon, rather than being something uplifting, was an attempt to lay a guilt trip. Ditto for new member Sundays. Such a nice, warm welcome for the new folks. "Welcome to our church--before have time to meet anyone, we'd like to twist your arm."

Second, my husband and I will decide how much we want to contribute to the church. I'm not buying the guilt trip. I don't care what the minister would like us to contribute, or what the trustees want. So, rather than make me inclined to give more to the church, the net effect of all that arm twisting was for us to give less to the church and more to Habitat and the local food bank.

I also didn't like the public pressure nature of the Shakedown Sunday, when you are supposed to march up to the front and drop in your pledge card. The whole thing is just distasteful. Again, it made me want to give the church less, not more.

This, btw, was a very wealthy congregation. They never had trouble raising money for anything. So, having so much time devoted to arm twisting was obscene.

Pigeon, thanks so much for taking the time share that detailed insight. So many times the church sticks its own foot in its mouth, people get teed off and leave or fume. No one talks and speaks respectfully and truthfully, so no real progress is made so that the same mistakes aren't repeated -and wounds aren't healed. Dialog like the one we are all having here that includes church leaders and members means so much.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

On giving of time and/or money... (apologies in advance cuz this is not going to be short )

My denomination (United Methodist) puts it this way when a person joins the church: "Will you faithfully participate in [the local church's] ministries by your prayers, your presence, your gifts, and your service?" (person resonds by saying "I will"). That means there are four commitments involved in being a member -prayer, presence, gifts, service. Prayer = praying with and for the work of the church and its members; presence = having your rear in a seat on at least a regular basis; gifts = tithe; service = giving of time and energy. Someone could fail at any or all of these. The expectation is that people will tithe AND give of their time, not as a "con" as some would have us believe, but as "a sign of spiritual maturity" (thx FSUMARCHIEF). As member of a church our time is valuable as is our money.

The matter of pledging or committing, as in Commitment Sunday, seems to be a basic issue of commitment. Almost all of us commit money to pay each month to our mortgages, car payments, etc. Why not trust God enough to make a commitment to the church?

 

[Pigeon]

In my former UMC church, we had endless requests for the socks for Mexican immigrants that were in no way reduced by extortion of Shakedown Sunday. I actually don't mind the socks requests or contributing to social action funds nearly as much as I do fundraising for more and more glorious building projects.

You know, I'll admit to being somewhat of a church slut. We've moved around a fair amount and have tried out many different denominations. I've seen a huge variety in the way that donations are handled. We've been members of a Friends Meeting (Quakers), where a collection isn't taken and where there is one mailing to members and attenders per year asking for money. Friends tend to strive to keep the overhead down so that the bulk of the money raised can be used for social action purposes. We currently attend a Unitarian Universalist church, which is similarly low-key, but slightly more into overhead.

All of these denominations have policies of being very open about church finances. I haven't noticed much difference in the ability of these churches to meet their financial obligations.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

You know, I'll admit to being somewhat of a church slut. We've moved around a fair amount and have tried out many different denominations.

I won't post the link here because its not G-rated, but go to Youtube and search for "Betty Butterfield". You'll be glad you did

 

[FSUMARCHIEF]

I'm really sorry this affects good people like you, but I think the answer is simple. The crooks running many mega churches, and even some smaller ones.

When they see how much money is already flowing, including seeing how much benefit these crooks are already receiving, to be aksed to give more might be much more than the last straw. Especially if they have already given 10% in more than one way.

Personally I feel that the rule in helping out in your community is true in this context as well. Any time given is worth at least as much as any money given, if not more. Must be hard for people to accept that they have not given their 10% when people are not counting the time they may put in.

Likely not true for your church, but it some cases, they ignore anything but cash because time isn't legal tender.

I also have never seen anybody prove that what is said in the bible isn't something that could be translated to simplpy giving 10% of yourself which could done with money or time.

Ah - we agree on something! I read an article just yesterday about a particular televangelist and the gobbs of money his ministry receives and what his salary is and the lavish lifestyle he leads. His books are not open and the people on his "board" are also mostly staff members of his ministry. That kind of stuff makes me so mad I can't see straight.

Those folks are what people see on TV and they think that is the norm, unfortunately.

When a person joins a United Methodist Church they are all asked this question after having professed their faith in Christ and been baptized: "Will you be loyal to the United Methodist Church and uphold it by your prayers, your presence, your gifts and your service."

I always explain that question by saying something like this. First, it doesn't mean that you have to be Methodist from now until the day you die. It just means that while you're here you will take your membership in this church as more than just sitting there soaking it all up. God intends for all of us to be in ministry and that promise is a reminder for you to serve GOd with your whole life.

Prayer -praying for the church, it's staff, it's ministries, everything.

Presence - being here, not just because you need the chruch, but because the church needs you. YOu might see someone that you give a smile to that no one else smiled at that day and you may be there one connection with God that day. The church needs your fellowship just as you need the church.

Gifts - Spiritual gifts and financial gifts - all of which have been given to us to use for His glory. That's talents and finances. We're called to respond to our faith with it all.

Service - serving in ministry, on mission teams, or local projects, or committees or boards, that kind of thing.

The Bible calls us to love God with all our heart, sould, mind and strength. And our neighbor as ourselves. That command certainly includes all of this that we've been discussing.

Blessings!
MarkyMark

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Ah - we agree on something! I read an article just yesterday about a particular televangelist and the gobbs of money his ministry receives and what his salary is and the lavish lifestyle he leads. His books are not open and the people on his "board" are also mostly staff members of his ministry. That kind of stuff makes me so mad I can't see straight.

Those folks are what people see on TV and they think that is the norm, unfortunately.

This reminds me... did you see where Rick Warren figured up everything his church had paid him in the 24 years he's been there and then paid that back to the church? This is in addition to the fact that he and his wife have been practicing what he calls "reverse tithing". They live on 10% of his earnings and give 90% to the church. People like him should get more pub for that IMO.

 

[JoyG]

WDW Hound- great insights you have here! I enjoy reading your responses...


I wanted to add to the conversation about giving of our time...

I don't think that is stressed enough amoung christians, how important it is to also give your time. (doesn't replace the tithe though)

Our church stresses that members donate their Time, Talents, and Treasure...the treasure obviously referring to the tithe, but the time and talents are done by volunteering, using your talents for God.

In addition to tithing, I also strive to donate my time. My motto for volunteering is to do it until I feel the "burn" (kind of like excercise ). I try get to the point where I feel like I'm making a sacrifice to volunteer...maybe that means going out when I'm tired after work to help out with a program, when I'd rather be at home...that sort of thing.

My church is always short on people to work in the Nursery or Toddler church...we never have enough helpers...the same people end up doing all the work.

 

[cardaway]

My church is always short on people to work in the Nursery or Toddler church...we never have enough helpers...the same people end up doing all the work.

IMO that may be a good example of what I'm talking about. If the church has to pay somebody to run that area, what would be more beneficial...

A few members giving a small percentage more of their income (which likely isn't much if they are already not giving the 10% amount because it's a hardship).

Or

A few members chipping in making it possible to get the staff needed and saving that salary?

There are plenty of people with lots of time to give, but might be hard pressed to give 10% of their income all the time. God may provide, but he doesn't pay the electirc bill and keep the heat going.

 

[jimmiej]

The fact is that often, God doesn't provide. I dunno why, but that's the fact.

I disagree! God ALWAYS provides for those who love Him. It may not be exactly the way WE want.

John 14

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

I know in our case, we struggled for years with our finances even though we gave countless hours of time & effort to the Lord's ministry through our local church. We gave from the leftovers instead of the firstfruits as the Bible instructs, i.e. not much. Now that we tithe (in addition to giving time & effort), God has blessed us financially. We've gone from living paycheck to paycheck to having more than enough to live on. We're not getting rich, thankfully, because then we might start relying on ourselves instead of God. That's not to say our life is a bed of roses. We have ups & downs like everyone. But God is faithful through it all & I know He will continue to be.

 

[ead79]

We tithe 10% of our income to the church. Right now it's a bit of a hardship as I quit my job, and we are living on my husband's income. But we have been blessed throughout our lives and see it as a privilege to give to the Lord. That may sound cheesy, but it's true for me. After I visited a poor church in the Bahamas during a mission trip and saw how cheerfully their congregation gave, I knew that I could give joyfully too--and much more easily given the income of most Americans compared to the Bahamian people. Ever since then we have tithed our income. We also heartily approve of the way our church spends the money--it is an open process that decides where the money goes and members vote on large purchases like land. We also give to various charities, both religious ones and secular ones like our local children's hospital.

 

[donaldsgal]

I continue to be proud of everyone for maintaining civil throughout this conversation.

I agree with a lot of what WDW Hound has said. And I also agree with what others have said, that our time is very valuable and needed (but doesn't replace the tithe). My pastor says that the church really dropped the ball back in the 20s and 30s - it used to be the primary agent for social activism, and then the government took over that roll with the leadership of FDR and his vision for the country. It saddens me that the church has let the government do its job of caring for the poor, the sick, the destitute, and the plain old down-and-out. I'm glad to see so many people here recognizing the value of putting our time and energy into God's hands to use.

Cardaway, you quoted me back a few pages re: my perspective on the way to become spiritually mature. I wanted to clarify that I believe other religions probably give and give generously of time and finances. I can't speak for whether or not that helps them grow more spiritually mature, but I can cognitively get that it probably does. Again, my perspective is that charitable work done for the good of fellow man is kind and moral and helps to make communities safe and strong. However, when I think of work done in God's name, my belief is that this is work done to glorify God by obeying His will that we do it in the first place (in other words, my good deeds are done out of a heart that is softened by Christ dwelling there, and my good deeds are God's idea in the first place). I don't think we're going to agree on this, and that's okay with me. I am happy to be questioned about what I think and believe as people have been respectful in how they ask these questions. My desire is to be clear about where I stand on these issues because my belief has been shaped by Scripture and Godly teaching.

And just to comment on what someone said (can't rememember who, I'm sorry) that it's a fact that God doesn't provide, I disagree. I have felt at times that God hasn't provided, but I was wrong. I know it's an unpopular statement and perhaps cliche, but I wholeheartedly believe God DOES provide - just with a way to further His kindgom in mind. We don't always look for that answer, and because He's a loving God, He understands that and will change our hearts to desire what He desires above what we desire on our own. It is cold to advise people to just not worry about their finances and trust God will provide - if that's true, why would there be so many Christian money management programs? We're called to be good stewards, and that includes having a mind toward the future and how we can pay for our needs and our wants. I think it's better to say that God understands it's hard for us not to worry about money, but He's big enough for us to confess our fear to and trust Him to alleviate that anxiety with a greater blessing of Himself as we give. Hebrews 4:15 says, "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." That tells me that Christ (the One who was tempted in every way and is our high priest/mediator) knows exactly what goes on in my heart and head when I'm worried, and for that reason I can trust Him to deal with me with patience, kindness, and grace as I confess that it's not always so easy to trust.

If you're in a church where people aren't being transparent with the church funds or their plans for the money, or you just feel uncomfortable with what is being taught - find a church that preaches the truth of Christ as portrayed in Scripture. I believe that a church that is committed to preaching from Scripture and seeking Christ in all things will probably still make mistakes (since it's still full of sinners) but will go a long way toward treating its members and their service, funds, and time with the respect these things deserve.

 

[jimmiej]

Let me address two issues brought up here:

1) Some Christians cannot afford to give 10%. That IS NOT Scriptural! Again, I refer you back to the widow's mite story. If we step out on faith, God has promised to fill our cup to overflowing. Look at the last chapter of Malachi. Now, I will admit that's easier said than done. We can't see the future like God can. Still, God will be faithful to provide!

2) God is satisfied if we give our time & talents in place of the tithe. Again, that's not scriptural. We should give all of the above. Doing so shows that God is a priority in our lives, and it allows the ministry of God to function. No, God doesn't need our money, time, or talents.

Luke 19:39-41

39Some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to Jesus, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples!"

40"I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."

The Bible indicates that ALL Christians are given spiritual gifts.

Romans 12

4Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

If every Christian used their spiritual gifts, there would be no need left unfulfilled.

 

[Zippa D Doodah]

Good points to ponder, jimmiej