Do you think that God had sent the wrong people for guidance?

[bicker]

Faith makes you believe you're sure. There's a difference. What I don't understand, though, is why you feel that it is necessary to so viciously attack beliefs you don't agree with, rather than peacefully disagreeing. Is there something about your faith that requires antagonistic prosecution of your beliefs?

 

[hokiefan33]

Faith makes you believe you're sure. There's a difference. What I don't understand, though, is why you feel that it is necessary to so viciously attack beliefs you don't agree with, rather than peacefully disagreeing. Is there something about your faith that requires antagonistic prosecution of your beliefs?

If you call my disagreement with you a "vicious attack", it is obvious that you have never actually been viciously attacked! I disagree with you, and peacefully so. The fact that I VOICE my disagreement with you and many others is often viewed as "vicious" or "prosecution". Why is that? B/c it disagrees with you? It just means that as strongly as you believe your beliefs, I believe mine just as strongly, and am willing to voice them. I would say that you have probably never truly been "persecuted" for your beliefs, and if you consider this persecution, you're mistaken. With your beliefs, you will probably never be "persecuted" for them, b/c they are so open to everything that most people don't find them to be offensive. Christianity, however, many find to be offensive, especially when voiced, b/c many of the teachings of the world today, including but certainly not limited to Pantheism, are DIRECTLY in conflict with the teachings of Scripture.

 

[bicker]

You don't know me, so don't presume to speak about me.

I'm sorry that I find your tone, insensitivity, and sarcasm offensive enough to consider your messages vicious. The fact that you claim it isn't doesn't assuage my concerns about this thread going down the same path many of the old Debate Board discussions, if left unchecked. Again, I'm sorry about that.

 

[scubamouse]

I would have to say that I'm not sure you know exactly WHAT you believe. How can you believe Christianity, but think that Universalism is the only explanation for many things? By doing that, you are not relying on your faith in God's mighty abilities to explain things, but the fact that if you can't tangibly prove it or if it doesn't make sense, it must not be God but something else. How is that even a Christian belief? It's not.!

I'm not sure why you care unless the fact that I'm Christian and have questions about my faith is disconcerting to you. I ask a lot of questions about Christianity and other religions that I am constantly looking for answers or at least understanding.

Humans have killed other humans in the name of God, that is true. But do you realize that a conservative estimate of the number of people killed in such "religious" wars as the Crusades, the Inquisition or the Salem witch trials is less than 500k? Look at the number of people killed by atheist or agnostic movements, or those who headed movements who held those beliefs, such as Hitler or Stalin? They number in the tens, if not hundreds, of MILLIONS. So who do you think more people were killed in the name of? God, or no God?!

do you have a link for that info? also, Hilter killed Jews and gays. how can that not be religiously motivated? Anyone know what Hitler's religion was?

You use words like "maybe" and "I can't wrap my head around" to describe your beliefs. Why are you not sure? Faith makes you sure, when you don't think you can tangibly prove it. If you believe Jesus is the path, you must have a reason for believing that, which I assume is the Bible. And if you use the Bible as your basis, you also have to know that the Bible says Jesus is the ONLY way, not just A way, and there's a big difference between the 2!

again, why do you care? so what that i'm not sure of absolutely everything about religion and Christianity. For me Christianity is a journey of understanding. Good for you that you've reached a point where you have all the answers. I don't have the hubris to think I'm anywhere close to that point. Humility about faith for me is about accepting that I don't have all the answers. I know what the Bible says but I also believe it was written and edited by men not the inerrant word of God. That doesn't mean that I don't hold it dear and believe there are powerfully important messages therein.

I'm not asking you or anyone else to agree with me.

 

[hokiefan33]

You don't know me, so don't presume to speak about me.

I'm sorry that I find your tone, insensitivity, and sarcasm offensive enough to consider your messages vicious. The fact that you claim it isn't doesn't assuage my concerns about this thread going down the same path many of the old Debate Board discussions, if left unchecked. Again, I'm sorry about that.

You don't know me, but you presume to speak about me, as well. How is that any different than what I "presume" about you? Hmmm...

I'm not concerned with what you find "vicious." You find my tone offensive b/c it disagrees COMPLETELY with what you believe, which in itself is hard to ascertain b/c you yourself say there really are no absolutes.

 

[bicker]

No, I found your messages offensive because of your tone, insensitivity, and sarcasm. I should know, since I'm me, and am generally considered the undisputed authority about what I find offensive.

Raidermatt also disagrees with me, yet I don't find his messages offensive.

The reality is that this discussion has now become a discussion about the people discussing things instead of about the subject. That's another indication that the thread is going down a non-constructive path. I'll let you get the last word. Seeya.

 

[hokiefan33]

I'm not sure why you care unless the fact that I'm Christian and have questions about my faith is disconcerting to you. I ask a lot of questions about Christianity and other religions that I am constantly looking for answers or at least understanding.

It does scare me that you profess to be a Christian, yet still have questions about the core of your faith. I'm not talking about knowing everything about one's faith, nobody will ever know that. But when it gets to the core of your faith, if you claim to be part of that faith, you should not have any questions about the core beliefs. If you do, how sold out to your faith are you, really?

do you have a link for that info? also, Hilter killed Jews and gays. how can that not be religiously motivated? Anyone know what Hitler's religion was?

Here's a link to try, it shows the purported religous affiliations of various historical leaders: http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html

I never said anything about killing being religiously motivated. YOU said that humans have been killing people in the name of religion for 2k years. The point I was making is that some have been killed in the name of Christianity, but MANY MORE have been killed in the name of everything that is anti-God. It's still religiously motivated, but not Christianity motivated.

From religioustolerance.org (a website that certainly doesn't promote solely Christian beliefs, so hopefully people don't doubt its numbers), talking about the Crusades: "These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final, 9th, crusade in 1272 CE. Both Christians and Muslims believed that they were fighting on God's side against Satan; they believed that if they died on the battlefield they would be given preferential treatment in the Christian Heaven or the Muslim Paradise. Battles were fought with a terrible fierceness and a massive loss of life. Over a 200 year period, perhaps 200,000 people were killed." As to the Inquisition and Salem witch trials, various sources differ. For example, Wikipedia would suggest no more than about 150,000 for the Inquisition, at most, which would mean that for my figures to be close to accurate, no more than 150,000 could have been killed at the Salem witch trials, which is certainly not the case. So I think that 500k is probably a conservatively high estimate, if you research it. Even if you compare that figure ONLY to the Holocaust, and ONLY include the generally accepted figure of 6 million Jews (not counting other ethnic or religious groups, not counting the Marxist/Stalinist/Leninist killings), you still have 12 times more people killed by Hitler alone than the Crusades, Inquisition and witch trials COMBINED. My point is that God doesn't cause this - the lack of God caused this!

 

[Teejay32]

Humans have killed other humans in the name of God, that is true. But do you realize that a conservative estimate of the number of people killed in such "religious" wars as the Crusades, the Inquisition or the Salem witch trials is less than 500k? Look at the number of people killed by atheist or agnostic movements, or those who headed movements who held those beliefs, such as Hitler or Stalin? They number in the tens, if not hundreds, of MILLIONS. So who do you think more people were killed in the name of? God, or no God?!

do you have a link for that info? also, Hilter killed Jews and gays. how can that not be religiously motivated? Anyone know what Hitler's religion was?

My guess is non-practicing Christian. It doesn't really matter because the bulk of evidence says his actions sprung from core beliefs that didn't come from from either Christianity or atheism, but a perverted sense of nationalism and/or racial identity - political goals. Also, what we call "Islamic extremism" in the Arab world when referring to terrorist acts on behalf of Allah, is called Political Islam by Arabs. Same idea.

 

[scubamouse]

It does scare me that you profess to be a Christian, yet still have questions about the core of your faith. I'm not talking about knowing everything about one's faith, nobody will ever know that. But when it gets to the core of your faith, if you claim to be part of that faith, you should not have any questions about the core beliefs. If you do, how sold out to your faith are you, really?

My church doesn't have a test about the core of your faith you need to pass in order to attend. Maybe you're Christian church wouldn't let me in but mine does. I still don't understand why it scares you?

I might flip one of my central struggles around and ask you - what do you think happens to the 2/3 of the planet that doesn't believe Jesus is THE Savior. Do you believe in your core that they are ALL burning in hell? Even Ghandi?

Here's a link to try, it shows the purported religous affiliations of various historical leaders: http://www.adherents.com/adh_influ.html

I never said anything about killing being religiously motivated. YOU said that humans have been killing people in the name of religion for 2k years. The point I was making is that some have been killed in the name of Christianity, but MANY MORE have been killed in the name of everything that is anti-God. It's still religiously motivated, but not Christianity motivated.

I just asked for a link. I hadn't heard that before. I still see that people are killing eachother in the name of God and I wonder if that was what He intends. Whether it's one or a billion, why does that matter?

Al queda is fighting in the name of God. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been fighting in the name of God. The serbs an croatians - fighting for religious reasons. India and Pakistan - religion issues. Bush paraphrases the Bible 'those that are not with us are against us' so he's arguably making this a religious war.

I'm not stating that all war is motivated by Christianity but that ALL religions are culpable. It can be a very blurry line between nationalism and religion.

 

[cardaway]

Actually, Cardaway has indeed shared some of his beleifs with us in a clear fashion.

He believes in God.
He believes all faiths are attempts to understand God, and are therefore pretty much equal.
He Beleives all faiths are attempts to understand that which we do yet really know.

Mike, please correct me if I am wrong on any of this. I do not want to misrepresent you here.

No, its not too general, at least not to qualify as a faith. You and I would disagree with it, but Univeralism is a faith. The belief that all faiths are ways of describing the same thing may be common, but so what? Christianityb is a common beleif too. You ask him to pick a God, but what if he feels they are all different viewsd of the same God. Many people beleive that when a faith such as Christianity gets too specific, it is going beyond what we can know. Of course you and I would disagree because its is very very fdifferent than what we beleive, but cant you at least understand the basis for a faith like Caraway's?

(Again, I hope I am getting it right. My appologies if I have mistated your views Mike).

Obviously I HAVE stated my beliefs quite clearly in the past.

Thank-you Don, you wrapped up many of my beliefs quite well. You're a prime example of the kind of Christian that people of other religions can talk to and learn from.

 

[hokiefan33]

My church doesn't have a test about the core of your faith you need to pass in order to attend. Maybe you're Christian church wouldn't let me in but mine does. I still don't understand why it scares you?

I never said there was a test to pass in order to attend. And it doesn't scare ME myself, it scares me FOR YOU, that you have so many questions still about a faith that you profess to believe in.

I might flip one of my central struggles around and ask you - what do you think happens to the 2/3 of the planet that doesn't believe Jesus is THE Savior. Do you believe in your core that they are ALL burning in hell? Even Ghandi?

Wish I could answer that one, but that answer often offends people on these boards, who then like to complain to the mods, who then have to warn me not to answer that question. So, I cannot answer it publicly on these boards. Not my choice, but it's what I've been warned against. I will say that the answer is very clearly spelled out in the Bible, irregardless of whether it coincides with what we "think" is fair or just and irregardless of whether we can get our minds around it or not. The answer is right there in the Holy Bible. That's all I can say.

I just asked for a link. I hadn't heard that before. I still see that people are killing eachother in the name of God and I wonder if that was what He intends. Whether it's one or a billion, why does that matter?

I never said I think it's what He intends, nor do I believe it is. Many people say that Christians killed to, but don't realize the magnitude of killings that occurred from people who WEREN'T Christians is FAR greater than the magnitude of those who say they were. That's the point I was getting at. Even one is bad, however.

Al queda is fighting in the name of God. Catholics and Protestants in Ireland have been fighting in the name of God. The serbs an croatians - fighting for religious reasons. India and Pakistan - religion issues.

Again, make sure that the "God" you reference is indeed the same. By virtue of the nature of the god that Muslims believe in, he is not the same as the God of the Bible, which is the God that I (and you, as a professing Christian, I assume) believe in. Our God is a triune God, whose son Jesus came to die for us and is the Savior of the world. The god of the Muslims is not a triune god, and the "Jesus" they believe in isn't our savior. 2 different gods entirely - it's not just 2 different manifestations. Remember that. I can call an orange an apple, but just b/c I call it an apple doesn't make it one, b/c its attributes are those of an orange.

 

[cardaway]

I understand what you are saying, but facts are facts even before we prove them. They are simply unproven facts. Reality does not giuve one whit whther or not we have proven it yet. There are many facts abouyt the way the universe functions now that we have not yet even begun to understand or prove, but they are still true right now.

Exactly. But the point wasn't as much about what is later proven to be true as it was about what has proven to be false. One example is ancient religions that were based on things we now accept to be false. I know we have had this discussion before, but here is part of it again... We routinely consider everything about these religions to be nothing more than myth and legend. Reason... because we proved their beliefs to be false. The same can happen to some of the beliefs of modern religions.

Also, faith is not just a wild guess as too the way things ware. True faith is not blind faith. Faith is based on the real experiences of the beleiver that bear out their faith. Like all observations, this feedback is relative to the beleiver, but that does not make it true or untrue.

But the "to the believer" part is the key and should be part of every statement in regards to truth of religion. My point on truth is only a comment on how we must go forward and run civilzations given all the "truths" out there.

 

[hokiefan33]

Obviously I HAVE stated my beliefs quite clearly in the past.

Thank-you Don, you wrapped up many of my beliefs quite well. You're a prime example of the kind of Christian that people of other religions can talk to and learn from.

I guess I just missed the post where you did, and forgot about the rule of only being able to state them once for the record. All you had to say to clear it up was "I am a Universalist." Would that have been so hard? Are you ashamed of it? Not convinced of it?

Wait, too many questions...

 

[2funny2c]

Yes, more vague and general spirituality.

People who claim this like to take the moral high ground while taking shots at those that DO profess to be Christians. They can take shots all day long and always look for that opportunity but yet distance themselves from any of the same criticism that they love to dole out because they always back peddle and say "well, i am not part of THAT group"

Hokie, it is obvious that Cardaway is searching and the Lord is working on his heart because Cardaway always shows up in any threads having to do with religion and take his potshots and go. Most of his responses are one or two lines dripping with bitterness and sarcasm. The Lord is leading him there for a reason and is teaching him along the way. Have faith, Hokie, and pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to work on his heart.

 

[2funny2c]

I guess I just missed the post where you did, and forgot about the rule of only being able to state them once for the record. All you had to say to clear it up was "I am a Universalist." Would that have been so hard? Are you ashamed of it? Not convinced of it?

Wait, too many questions...

He will only be a Universalist until someone calls him on that or someone from that religion does something that is called into question. Then he will disclaim any such belief.

 

[cardaway]

I'm Christian (although to some I'd venture Episcopalian doesn't count) and there are many times when I think Universalism is the only explanation. No it's not in the Bible but humans have spen2 2 millenia killing eachother in the name of their God and maybe there's one God and He has delivered multiple paths to Him to see if any of us focus on the love and understanding within each faith.

I can't wrap my head around a God that allows all the Jews, Hindus and Muslims to burn for all eternity because they don't accept Jesus as their savior. Jesus may be my path but I'm not ready to say that he's the only path.

Well said. Just my "made up beliefs" but I don't think anybody will judged harshly because they continued to look for more answers.

 

[2funny2c]

My church doesn't have a test about the core of your faith you need to pass in order to attend. Maybe you're Christian church wouldn't let me in but mine does. I still don't understand why it scares you?

I might flip one of my central struggles around and ask you - what do you think happens to the 2/3 of the planet that doesn't believe Jesus is THE Savior. Do you believe in your core that they are ALL burning in hell? Even Ghandi?

It doesnt matter what you or I believe about an eternity apart from God. God's ways are not man's ways. Too often we try to project our own human qualities upon God. When Job asked why things were happening to him, God responded and basically said when you know how the universe works then we can have this conversation <very rough paraphrase, forgive me>.

The point is that the only way to the father is through the son. It doesnt say through Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Confucious, or any other person these false religions are based on. Because 2/3 of the world is in danger of separation from God is why we are commanded to go out and make disciples of men. Instead of worrying about what will happen to these people , perhaps you should take steps to assist those that are trying to reach them

 

[2funny2c]

Well said. Just my "made up beliefs" but I don't think anybody will judged harshly because they continued to look for more answers.

But you will if you turn away and deny THE Answer.

 

[scubamouse]

I never said there was a test to pass in order to attend. And it doesn't scare ME myself, it scares me FOR YOU, that you have so many questions still about a faith that you profess to believe in..

got it - i'll let you know when my priest is scared for me. So far he's not and I ask plenty of questions

Wish I could answer that one, but that answer often offends people on these boards, who then like to complain to the mods, who then have to warn me not to answer that question. So, I cannot answer it publicly on these boards. Not my choice, but it's what I've been warned against. I will say that the answer is very clearly spelled out in the Bible, irregardless of whether it coincides with what we "think" is fair or just and irregardless of whether we can get our minds around it or not. The answer is right there in the Holy Bible. That's all I can say..

regardless

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irregardless

Again, make sure that the "God" you reference is indeed the same. By virtue of the nature of the god that Muslims believe in, he is not the same as the God of the Bible, which is the God that I (and you, as a professing Christian, I assume) believe in. Our God is a triune God, whose son Jesus came to die for us and is the Savior of the world. The god of the Muslims is not a triune god, and the "Jesus" they believe in isn't our savior. 2 different gods entirely - it's not just 2 different manifestations. Remember that. I can call an orange an apple, but just b/c I call it an apple doesn't make it one, b/c its attributes are those of an orange.

Why does it need to be the same God

IMO it doesn't need to be the same God. People supporting violence in the name of their God whether it's Yahweh, Jesus, Allah et. al., it's still missing a central tenant of the message of each religion.

 

[hokiefan33]

got it - i'll let you know when my priest is scared for me. So far he's not and I ask plenty of questions

Let me see, could it be that your priest is also... nah, couldn't be that!!

regardless

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irregardless

Well said. Thank you for the English lesson, especially since it has so much to do with what we've been discussing. Very well done.

Why does it need to be the same God

IMO it doesn't need to be the same God. People supporting violence in the name of their God whether it's Yahweh, Jesus, Allah et. al., it's still missing a central tenant of the message of each religion.

I never ever said I supported violence. Once again (this might make 2 or 3 times now) you have missed my point about that post. My point was don't just blame it on Christians, b/c MANY MORE have been killed in the name of things that aren't of God, than have been in the name of God. I don't support violence like that, from any religion. My point was that be careful when you reference the name God, b/c you might mean something that another religion clearly doesn't hold to be true.