Do you think American kids get a bad rap on education?

[friend of pooh]

A big part of the problem is that our society doesnt value education like other countries do. Many kids come to school unable to identify any numbers, letters, or colors. Many students do not complete homework or classwork. Many see it as a time to socialize instead of learn. Sadly many parents can't or won't help their children at home. Kids are often told that school isnt important and they don't have to listen to those dumb teachers. How on earth can the U.S. even dream of competing when education is looked down on?

 

[golfgal]

A big part of the problem is that our society doesnt value education like other countries do. Many kids come to school unable to identify any numbers, letters, or colors. Many students do not complete homework or classwork. Many see it as a time to socialize instead of learn. Sadly many parents can't or won't help their children at home. Kids are often told that school isnt important and they don't have to listen to those dumb teachers. How on earth can the U.S. even dream of competing when education is looked down on?

Exactly--and many of these kids get this attitude from their parents. I think a lot of the decline in our education comes from the "special snowflake" attitude that heaven forbid your child EVER get anything less then an A and if they don't get all A's they have some kind of disorder or it is the school's fault. How on earth are our schools supposed to overcome this attitude?

I do find it interesting that you find a lot of these top students coming from India, China, etc. to go to college in the US though. I do agree that other countries push their students more however their learning is very much book learning, wrote learning, etc. They don't have any emphasis on anything but the basics. When our kids were in China the thought of a school over there having a band class in school was almost unheard of. The schools they visited had just started band offering a couple years before. You certainly won't find auto shop classes in the high schools in India. The learning in other countries is much more robotic which is why you find a lot of people from India in the tech world, for example.

 

[eliza61]

I do find it interesting that you find a lot of these top students coming from India, China, etc. to go to college in the US though. I do agree that other countries push their students more however their learning is very much book learning, wrote learning, etc. They don't have any emphasis on anything but the basics. When our kids were in China the thought of a school over there having a band class in school was almost unheard of. The schools they visited had just started band offering a couple years before. You certainly won't find auto shop classes in the high schools in India. The learning in other countries is much more robotic which is why you find a lot of people from India in the tech world, for example.

Our colleges are usually much better than our general education. Especially our top notch universities which have deep pockets to stay leaders in various fields.

I agree with alot of others. We donot as a rule make education a priority. Near my home we have a Japanese pilot school. The kids there are required to do so many things and what I found interesting was the attitude of Our parents.
For example: Parents were required to attend monthly meetings to discuss the childs progress. You know who B*(& ed about it being a hassle? The American parents. All the Asian parents were there front and center.
Also the kids are required to clean and maintain their classrooms. Now we're not talking about scrubbing floors, we're talking about wiping their desk, picking up papers, cleaning the board. Once again who had a cow? the American unions. How in the world could teaching kids to be responsible for their environment be a bad thing? Requiring a 8 year old to pick up after themselves is horrible?
I could go on and on.
We need some serious attitude adjustments

 

[BeachGirlFLA]

I went to private school all the way through 12th grade and when I got to college I was absolutely shocked at what the other students (who had mostly gone to public schools) didn't know and had never heard of, especially in History and English Lit classes. There were women in my Women's History class with me who only knew of Susan B. Anthony and had never heard of Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Sojourner Truth (both of whom I had heard of in 4th grade and had been discussed in any American History class I had after that point), just as one example. I also had a friend when I was a Junior in high school who was using the exact same History textbook that the school that I attended from K-8 used for 7th and 8th grades (and she was in AP History.) I definitely think our educational system (and especially our public schools) have a lot of room for improvement.

 

[hereyago]

Just recently, a school district close to ours wants to change the grade system for themselves.
Say a kid has 100 questions. That kids just gets 20 of those answers correct, they still want to give the kid 50 points.
Really, is that helping the kid? They should be ashamed for even wanting to do that. They are saying that they want to get rid of the "zero" grade because it is so hard for the student to rise up from that. And if the kids turns in work that kid gets 50 points towards his grade.
So what is that really teaching if that happens? You can half **** your work and get a grade you dont deserve? Kids are supposed to turn in their stuff and do homework and study.

 

[sunnyday123]

It's not "rap" it's "rep" as in reputation.

Yes, but I think our system sucks. It's not for the kids gaining education, it's for the schools to get money from the government. Also they keep kids in there for so long, I would support switching to a ridged year round school system and going to the Europian system. Ours is a hot mess.

Thanks. And btw,it's "rigid" and "European". I don't think everything is political, and that our kids are used for political gain.

 

[gina2000]

Americans don't value an education. When I was a kid, the only way you got ahead was to get an education or to get a second job. Now you get another credit card. Why get an education when you can boost your income by filling out a form?

We've fallen so far behind that it's sad. Most students don't have the perseverance nor the fortitude to put in the hours required to create scholars. And most parents don't value it enough to push their children, give them the opportunity, or provide them with the tools to do so. Ask parents how many of them track their childrens' progress past grammar school. Most will tell you that it's the students' responsibility to do so. Yet, the middle and high school years are probably the most important time to help a student maintain interest, set goals, and find avenues in which to succeed.

 

[MrsPete]

This isn't a simple "yes" or "no" answer:

It's absolutely true that we're measuring ALL our students in our figures. So we're measuring kids whose parents are both college graduates and who have provided educational opportunities from birth, AND we're also measuring the children of crack addicts who've barely managed to keep their children alive. Many other countries are giving the lower-level kids only a few years of education, then they're sending them out for training in manual labor jobs. In that sense, our low-level and low-average kids are MUCH BETTER OFF; sure, they aren't going to achieve at the top-top levels, but they'll be literate and will have an opportunity to do something with themselves.

It's also true that most American families do not put education first. How many people pull their kids out of school for vacations? How many teens work excessive hours at part-time jobs? How many kids spend more time playing video games and surfing the 'net than they do studying?

At the same time, our top-top students are MUCH FARTHER AHEAD than I was at their age. My own daughter has more motivation, intelligence, and better grades than I did at her age PLUS she knows technology, which didn't exist when I was her age. These students may be fewer in number, but they are really top-notch. We need to do more for them.

 

[agnes!]

My SIL had an exchange student from China stay with her for a year, and this girl couldn't believe how little work the HS students are expected to do. Where she lives, she basically goes to school, does homework, sleeps and eats. They do school work over holidays and summers, too.

My DD goes to school in the US, does school work over all holidays and over the summer. Usually in the summer she has a project or two plus extensive reading (Anyone for some light reading? How about Vergil's "Aenid"?) for the classes she's taking in the fall. She took 2 HS courses in 8th Grade, took AP World History last year (scoring the best possible) and is taking 2 AP courses this year. She's also taken almost exclusively Honors courses throughout HS.

It's not "rap" it's "rep" as in reputation.

Yes, but I think our system sucks. It's not for the kids gaining education, it's for the schools to get money from the government. Also they keep kids in there for so long, I would support switching to a ridged year round school system and going to the Europian system. Ours is a hot mess.

Thanks. And btw,it's "rigid" and "European". I don't think everything is political, and that our kids are used for political gain.

Actually is *is* (getting a bad) rap, According to dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bad rap
bad rap
n.
a false criminal charge. (Underworld. The same as bum rap.) : Freddy got stuck with a bad rap.
n.
unjustified criticism. : Butter has been getting sort of a bad rap lately.
Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions by Richard A. Spears.Fourth Edition.
Copyright 2007. Published by McGraw Hill.

And this blog has an interesting essay on the phrase "getting a bad rap"
http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-it-Bad-Rap-or-Bad-Wrap

agnes!

 

[SwedishMeatball]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090927/ap_on_re_us/us_more_school

 

[Beca]

Our school system is absolutely sub-standard!! A couple of years ago, we took our dd to Europe, and while we were in Paris, we met a 16 yr. old American girl who was living with her parents in Paris. I asked about school, and she told us that school in France was MUCH harder than in America, and she had been living in France since she was 2.

I asked where she thought she might go to college, and she said, "Oh, definitely America. I am not smart enough to get into any universities in France." She said her parents were encouraging her to go to one of their universities. I asked where her parents went to school, and she replied, "Well, my dad went to Harvard and my mom went to Yale."
After I pulled my jaw off the sidewalk of the park, I asked (as politely as I possibly could), "So, you cannot get into ANY university in France, but are thinking you can get into Harvard or Yale?" To which she replied, "Oh yes, I was actually accepted into both for next fall, but I might decide to wait a year before I go."

We purchased my daughter some "pre-school" books while we were in France. One book we purchased for 3 year-olds was teaching kids to write in both print and cursive. The math books were really advanced as well.

Yes....we are behind.

 

[LisaR]

My DD (14) has a friend that was born in and lived in Germany until he was nine and then lived in Italy. He now lives in the US. He is FLUENT in German, Italian, French and English. I capitalized fluent because he truly is. I have watched kids take years upon years of the same language in the US and they can not communicate with a person from that country. When he arrived in the US, school was beyond easy for him. He ended up enrolling in the community college at the age of 13 and has taken things like calculus and biology already and passed.

We had a Spanish exchange student stay with us and there wasn't one teen friend of my DD's that could communicate with her beyond the basic words and these kids have taken years of Spanish. The exchange student was also fluent in two other languages and spoke better English than some people that were born here.

Both of these kids have/had very tough school days but both had plenty of time for other activities including sports teams and clubs.

 

[daisyduck123]

I think it's a mix of both. When I was in high school we had a German exchange student. She was 15-1/2 & already taking physics in school. She qualified to be a senior, but because of her age she was put in the 11th grade. They do spend more time doing their studies than we do here

My DD (turned 15 last month) is taking AP Physics here in a public school in Md. (She's actually taking 5 AP classes this year).

 

[LisaR]

My DD (turned 15 last month) is taking AP Physics here in a public school in Md. (She's actually taking 5 AP classes this year).

I am not knocking your DD's AP classes or her education but the AP classes honestly don't compare to the classes offered in other countries. My own DD is taking AP classes so I promise that I am not lashing out at you.

Back in the 50's when AP classes came out, they were designed for only the brightest kids; those that were truly gifted and needed a challenge. The AP has become a money making "non-profit" business that panders to everyone. Schools recruit at-risk students for AP classes and there have even been allegations of kids getting paid to take AP classes. When students enrolled in the AP classes are no longer the best of the best, there is only one way to get most to pass the test: lower the standards. AP classes may be a challenge to our children compared to the regular school curriculum but that does not put them on the same level as what other countries teach. The two kids I know from other countries have had much harder courses than any AP class offered.

 

[~Kik-Kik~]

My DD goes to school in the US, does school work over all holidays and over the summer. Usually in the summer she has a project or two plus extensive reading (Anyone for some light reading? How about Vergil's "Aenid"?) for the classes she's taking in the fall. She took 2 HS courses in 8th Grade, took AP World History last year (scoring the best possible) and is taking 2 AP courses this year. She's also taken almost exclusively Honors courses throughout HS.





Actually is *is* (getting a bad) rap, According to dictionary.com:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bad rap
bad rap
n.
a false criminal charge. (Underworld. The same as bum rap.) : Freddy got stuck with a bad rap.
n.
unjustified criticism. : Butter has been getting sort of a bad rap lately.
Dictionary of American Slang and Colloquial Expressions by Richard A. Spears.Fourth Edition.
Copyright 2007. Published by McGraw Hill.

And this blog has an interesting essay on the phrase "getting a bad rap"
http://hubpages.com/hub/Is-it-Bad-Rap-or-Bad-Wrap

agnes!

I was thinking the OP was trying to use modern slang, in which case it would be rep as in an individual (or group , like the US Education System) who has a demolished reputation among his/her piers (other countries in this case).

This definition certainly fits, it's just the modern interpretation of the 90's saying "bad rep" which is old as is has a place in the dictionary (which I was not aware of until you pointed it out). The only reason I said something was because I read a post on page 1 saying "I think you mean bad rap", and I havn't heard it in years, so I figured it was a typo and the OP went with it. And in case you don't know, the original saying was "bum rap" then "bad rap". Bad rap is still used but is interchangeable with "bad reputation" or "bad rep". So thank you for correcting me.

Also, to whoever did it, going through and correcting obvious typos as a dig, is quite petty.

 

[locolala]

The problems I see with the public school system are numerous.. there is such a push these days to get EVERYONE to pass through EVERY grade the first time, and they aren't holding kids back even if they truely need it. There were people in my graduating class who could barely read, and they were not special ed kids, they were in mainstream classes. I've seen entire classes slowed down because one kid couldn't get the concept. That's ridiculous, to be honest. I know that schools are working hard to keep kids from dropping out, but it's just ridiculous sometimes. Sometimes, you really do need to hold someone back because they aren't ready to move on. People have become so PC and won't risk offending someone. One of the local school systems is seriously considering getting rid of the GT program because parents are complaining that their kid feels inadequate or not smart enough to get in the program. That frustrates me to no end, it really does.

 

[bballmom56]

My DH is a college professor and is and has been completely frustrated at the level of student coming out of our high schools (granted he is not at a top tier college). These students cannot write a three page paper well. They don't know how to research for a paper. They can't spell (and even with spell check and grammar check, the papers are awful). My DH says that to these kids, "eveything is negotiable". Don't like the grade you earned? Badger the teacher. Don't like the assignment? Complain to the teacher (yes, one student sent him a full page email telling him she didn't feel his assignment was appropriate or relevant and why should she have to do this. She was a history education major stating that she wasn't interested in learning about THE US PRESIDENTS!!!!)

There is far less respect shown to college faculty, because after all, students have been told for years how wonderful they are and how we are all equal and nobody is better than anybody else. There are no standards anymore. If you do your best, that is good enough. When my DH says it's not good enough, they are offended. Yes, offended. We have not done our kids any favors.

 

[golfgal]

My DD (14) has a friend that was born in and lived in Germany until he was nine and then lived in Italy. He now lives in the US. He is FLUENT in German, Italian, French and English. I capitalized fluent because he truly is. I have watched kids take years upon years of the same language in the US and they can not communicate with a person from that country. When he arrived in the US, school was beyond easy for him. He ended up enrolling in the community college at the age of 13 and has taken things like calculus and biology already and passed.

We had a Spanish exchange student stay with us and there wasn't one teen friend of my DD's that could communicate with her beyond the basic words and these kids have taken years of Spanish. The exchange student was also fluent in two other languages and spoke better English than some people that were born here.

Both of these kids have/had very tough school days but both had plenty of time for other activities including sports teams and clubs.

I would go out on a limb here and say that if a kid that took high school Spanish spent several years living in Spain that that kid would be fluent as well. I don't consider it a great feat to live in a country for several years and becoming fluent in their language. The reverse is also true, there are many foreign exchange students that come to the US having taken English in their schools and they are no where near fluent nor can they really converse with their peers.

 

[Pigeon]

I do think that our practice of making everybody take the same standardized test is ridiculous. Dh is a high school teacher. He's not a special ed teacher, but this year he's got one class where over three quarters of his kids are special ed students. Some of them cannot and will never be able to do the work expected for this class. According to our state's rules, they must take and fail this class once in order to then take an easier version. It's insane, a huge waste of resources, and incredibly frustrating for all involved.

I'm faculty at a state university. Our educational system is different than that of other countries, both in terms of who gets educated at what level, and in terms of the skills that are valued.

We have a substantial number of international students. Now, the kids who come to the US from their home countries tend to be a very self-selecting group of high achievers. At my institution, we get a very large number of kids from China. They are outstanding at taking standardized tests and at memorizing vast amounts of material verbatim. They are not nearly as good at writing research papers (ESL issues aside), at critical thinking or at working collaboratively. Those aren't skills valued by their native educational systems.

It's not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[crashbb]

Our school system is absolutely sub-standard!! A couple of years ago, we took our dd to Europe, and while we were in Paris, we met a 16 yr. old American girl who was living with her parents in Paris. I asked about school, and she told us that school in France was MUCH harder than in America, and she had been living in France since she was 2.

I asked where she thought she might go to college, and she said, "Oh, definitely America. I am not smart enough to get into any universities in France." She said her parents were encouraging her to go to one of their universities. I asked where her parents went to school, and she replied, "Well, my dad went to Harvard and my mom went to Yale."
After I pulled my jaw off the sidewalk of the park, I asked (as politely as I possibly could), "So, you cannot get into ANY university in France, but are thinking you can get into Harvard or Yale?" To which she replied, "Oh yes, I was actually accepted into both for next fall, but I might decide to wait a year before I go."

If she's lived in France since she was 2, how can she say anything about the American school system? All she's known is the French one.

From my own experience (I've gone to school in France and in England), I did not find either one to be particularly harder (overall) than at home (though I am in Canada, not the US). In France, my main difficulty was the language issue (I spoke French, but didn't know all the academic terms). In both countries, in the subjects I was good at (math/science), I stayed near the top of the class. In some subjects, one country was superior to the other two - languages in France, history and literature in England, science in Canada, but no one country was harder overall than the other two. Of course, this is a very small sample (I attended 1 or 2 schools in each country).

Unless the girl did miserably on her exit exams (which the US schools wouldn't need to look at) or her parents had "pull" at Harvard/Yale, I find it very hard to believe that she couldn't get into any French University (if she'd been there for 14 years, I can only assume language wasn't an issue). Not getting into somewhere like La Sorbonne I can believe, but they do have the equivalent of State schools that are not difficult to get into.

As to the original question. I'd have to look into the methods of any of the research. Any researcher worth their salt is going to take things like that (who can write the exams) into account.