Do you think American kids get a bad rap on education?

[eliza61]

I see what some of you are saying. But even though maybe our best and brightest aren't being as challenged by public education as they should be isn't the flip side of that the fact that our poorest and most underprivileged members of society are the best educated in the world? If we were to take a look at a the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder (so to speak) here and compare them to an equivalent group of kids in one of these other countries, which kids do you think have more resources available to them?

?

Usually looking at the lowest rung of the ladder is not a good indication. Mainly because in many other countries things like just surviving is a major issue. Countries in India & Africa where war, famine, genocide and Aids are wiping out generation after generation you're lucky if you make it pass age 10educated or not.

Most comparisons take rankings among the 13 leading industrialized nations. They do weigh things like availability of education, gender, (not race due to the fact that race is mainly an issue of the U.S.) and income.

A bigger concern would be, why with all our advance resources are our kids still coming out either mediocre or in the bottom 1/3?

Also as with every survey, it does depend on who is doing the ranking. My company uses the statistic on 8th graders (usually 13 years) and then again at 11th grade

 

[gina2000]

I dont see how the parent is the problem..I have a 7 year old who i worked with all the time and yet he falls a little behind the other children in his class.It is wrong to blame the parents for it thats like blaming a gun for killing someone.When it was the person behind it how can you blame the parents when most parents to all they can to make sure there child has the best they can.. How ever i also wonder if we dont push our kids to hard because of all of this when does the child get to be a child i have a middle schooler who comes home with alot of home work every night of the week no time to play or be a child because of all of it. Could it be they are just burned out! I know i would be....

If a parent works with a child every day, a teacher can tell. The student shows up with finished homework. The student has read the assignment. The students' comprehension and understanding may be below average but the effort is there. I certainly am not blaming a parent who is working with a child who has trouble achieving. I am blaming the parent who ignores the child's education allowing the child to make decisions about his/her future by him/herself.

It's very, very apparent when a student has no support at home. A student who rarely completes homework, who never uses a planner, who has a parent that doesn't sign/check a planner and/or makes excuses during a parent/teacher conference, has a home problem. Teachers see many, many situations such as this example every single year.

My concerns for this nation are manifold. As our manufacturing base has eroded, middle class jobs have permanently disappeared. As our technology has been outsourced, middle class jobs have disappeared. If middle class parents don't put their time, effort, and resources into helping their children achieve, the next generation will no longer be middle class.

Parental direction is the most important influence in a child's life. No one else has such complete power. Parents need to harness and use this power in a positive manner. Children will value education if parents put education on a pedestal.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Usually looking at the lowest rung of the ladder is not a good indication. Mainly because in many other countries things like just surviving is a major issue. Countries in India & Africa where war, famine, genocide and Aids are wiping out generation after generation you're lucky if you make it pass age 10educated or not.

Most comparisons take rankings among the 13 leading industrialized nations. They do weigh things like availability of education, gender, (not race due to the fact that race is mainly an issue of the U.S.) and income.

A bigger concern would be, why with all our advance resources are our kids still coming out either mediocre or in the bottom 1/3?

But why isn't the fact that our kids do not have to deal with war, famine, genocide and HIV wiping out generation after generation a feature we should be proud of? The improved quality of life these kids have here is comparable to no-where else in the world and the situation exists because countless people work very hard and a great deal of money is spent on raising the lowest members of society up to a humane level. Our poorest members ARE better off and that is where the difference between us and the 13 leading industrialized nations shows itself. How is it that you can have all these advantages and refuse to count them in when this very group is probably what makes us look less than stellar at first glance?

I think our kids come out mediocre or at the bottom because we are averaging in incredibly brilliant 100 average students with the other side of the spectrum who can't even write there names and get zero's. If you take a 100 add it to a zero and find the average you will get a 50 which is not at all an accurate representation of either of the members of the set. I think it would be more infinitely useful to use raw data in the form of modes, medians and means instead of weighted numbers that no-one understands. Obviously, if you see a group has a mean of 50 but you can also see that the mode falls around 90 a different situation exists than a group where the mode actually falls in at around 50.. KWIM?

The biggest thing I learned when I was studying for my degree is how easily things can be distorted when using statistics. Statistics are shortcuts to compiling data but without the raw data as a reference they can be very misleading. That's why whenever I see a graph I ignore everything and look for the numbers pre-crunched. I even learned that even the rise/run of a graph can distort perceptions.

 

[crashbb]

Our poorest members ARE better off and that is where the difference between us and the 13 leading industrialized nations shows itself.

On what are you basing this? You are stating the poor Americans are better off than poor Canadians, Britons, French, Swiss, Germans, Japanese....

Any facts to back up your claim?

And it's the axes that can distort the graph, not the rise/run (which are properties of the slope).

 

[LuvOrlando]

I'll have to get back to you on the facts about the education levels of illegal immigrants and the disabled in other countries but I am disinclined to think that other countries provide as much support as we do here.

Thanks for trying to point out the flaw, but Rise/Run are the same thing when used in practical application on a graph as Dependant/Independant variables and the X & Y axes. The problem with always using appropriate terminology is it tends to end up looking show offy and that alienates people. Sometimes I think field specific terms are meant to make things harder for people so they don't bother investigating things. As a result, I revert to more common terms. Don't think I don't know the difference, I do, but sometimes I just choose to not make the distinction.... it is absolutely deliberate.

 

[crashbb]

I'll have to get back to you on the facts about the education levels of illegal immigrants and the disabled in other countries but I am disinclined to think that other countries provide as much support as we do here.

You said POOR. You didn't say illegal immigrants or disabled. So, finding facts (which, frankly, I'm not sure you'd find) saying the US was the BEST amongst industrialized nations, would do nothing to prove that your original assertion was correct.

ETA - off topic and not worthwhile

 

[luvsJack]

Our school system is absolutely sub-standard!! A couple of years ago, we took our dd to Europe, and while we were in Paris, we met a 16 yr. old American girl who was living with her parents in Paris. I asked about school, and she told us that school in France was MUCH harder than in America, and she had been living in France since she was 2.

I asked where she thought she might go to college, and she said, "Oh, definitely America. I am not smart enough to get into any universities in France." She said her parents were encouraging her to go to one of their universities. I asked where her parents went to school, and she replied, "Well, my dad went to Harvard and my mom went to Yale."
After I pulled my jaw off the sidewalk of the park, I asked (as politely as I possibly could), "So, you cannot get into ANY university in France, but are thinking you can get into Harvard or Yale?" To which she replied, "Oh yes, I was actually accepted into both for next fall, but I might decide to wait a year before I go."

We purchased my daughter some "pre-school" books while we were in France. One book we purchased for 3 year-olds was teaching kids to write in both print and cursive. The math books were really advanced as well.

Yes....we are behind.

Most 3 year olds are not developmentally ready to write in either print or cursive.




A question: I have seen a couple of comments about no band classes, for instance, in schools in other countires. So, in some countries they only have academic classes in the schools? No art, music, drama, etc?

 

[crashbb]

A question: I have seen a couple of comments about no band classes, for instance, in schools in other countires. So, in some countries they only have academic classes in the schools? No art, music, drama, etc?

I can only speak for the schools I attended in England and France, but all did have art/music/drama/sports, etc. In fact, the school I attended in France had more art/drama/music than my Canadian school did.

Again, this small sample cannot be used to make generalizations.

 

[golfgal]

I don't care how many extra days they add to the school calendar or how many extra hours they add to the school day. We can continue to blame teachers, principals, school districts, etc. We can add extra funding, extra programs and anything else you can imagine to "improve" our schools. However, nothing will change until all parents take the same responsibility in raising their children and preparing them for school. For instilling in their children the importance of education and how it will directly impact their lives.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where many people pop out kids left and right and believe that once they start preschool or kindergarten, that their job is done. I cannot tell you how many times I have met with parents (of 4th graders) that are surprised that their kids can't read. They are quick to blame the school and teachers, but never acknowledge their own role in their child's education.

All of these countries that do so much better than the US have residents that value education. They know what happens when you are not educated and what impact it has on your future life. We don't have that here. I've had 9 year old girls tell me that it's okay if they don't go to college and/or get a job, because you can get money from the government, and if you have babies you can get your food paid for as well.

The truth hurts, but we need to be honest with what the real problem is.

Something just happened a few minutes ago that made me think of this thread.

My 14 y/o is dual enrolled for the first time this semester. She is NOT gifted. She simply passed the test to get into college. Not a big deal.

One of her classes is speech. The age range of the students is from 14 (DD) to 25. I dropped her off this morning and 25 minutes later I get a text that she is done. I pick her up and ask why the heck they are done so early.

It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.

I can see how this happens very easily. It used to be that kids could walk to the library after school to do their homework, now they can't leave their yard without an armed guard or parent OR they are too busy at football practice to go to the library so they don't get to practice HOW to use a library. The computer and internet is just too easy to do research so people don't take the extra step to go to the library. Heck, we didn't even HAVE a library in town until April of this year. They were smart and built it within walking distance of the schools so kids can walk over there after school and then take the activity bus home.

Why would any parent demand their child pass, knowing they can't read at the level they are supposed to? Why would a parent go as far as taking a school district to court if they needed to retain the child. How about the parent step up to the plate and take responsibilty for their child by teaching them to read, or making sure they get the help they need to do it and not worying about little Johnny's feelings when he gets held back.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with a system that allows parents that much power, but ultimately its the parent who is causing the child to be pushed through when they really shouldn't be.

You are kidding right? A parent not demand that Johnny move on even if he can't read. If that were to happen someone might think that they weren't doing their job as a parent.

Most 3 year olds are not developmentally ready to write in either print or cursive.




A question: I have seen a couple of comments about no band classes, for instance, in schools in other countires. So, in some countries they only have academic classes in the schools? No art, music, drama, etc?

Yes, some countries do not offer anything but academic classes.

 

[eliza61]

But why isn't the fact that our kids do not have to deal with war, famine, genocide and HIV wiping out generation after generation a feature we should be proud of? The improved quality of life these kids have here is comparable to no-where else in the world and the situation exists because countless people work very hard and a great deal of money is spent on raising the lowest members of society up to a humane level. Our poorest members ARE better off and that is where the difference between us and the 13 leading industrialized nations shows itself. How is it that you can have all these advantages and refuse to count them in when this very group is probably what makes us look less than stellar at first glance?

I think our kids come out mediocre or at the bottom because we are averaging in incredibly brilliant 100 average students with the other side of the spectrum who can't even write there names and get zero's. If you take a 100 add it to a zero and find the average you will get a 50 which is not at all an accurate representation of either of the members of the set. I think it would be more infinitely useful to use raw data in the form of modes, medians and means instead of weighted numbers that no-one understands. Obviously, if you see a group has a mean of 50 but you can also see that the mode falls around 90 a different situation exists than a group where the mode actually falls in at around 50.. KWIM?

The biggest thing I learned when I was studying for my degree is how easily things can be distorted when using statistics. Statistics are shortcuts to compiling data but without the raw data as a reference they can be very misleading. That's why whenever I see a graph I ignore everything and look for the numbers pre-crunched. I even learned that even the rise/run of a graph can distort perceptions.

Oh, I'm very proud of it but I guess what they are saying is you can't compare apples to oranges.

You're absolutely right you can't view any statistics in a vacuum and that's why it does depend on who does the studies. That's where the weighted Average comes in. It's not whether or not our folks on the bottom are better off, because even that is skewed. There are many who feel that with all our advantages it's an absolute disgrace that we have such an illiterate population.

I think the best you can do is once again get rid of extremes and look at average. for example, in studies comparing England, U.S. Japan, Australia, Canada and France 8th graders and 11th graders we are routinely fifth or 6th. If you throw China into the mix it's worse. and Finland blows just about every one out the water. They also try to take in consideration of curriculum

So my concern is not so much how the numbers are skewered (which is why my company tries hard to collect alot of data from reputable sources) but my concern is why our children are lagging behind and what must be done to make sure they are competitive.

I do want to reiterate that my perspective is from the college, graduate and hiring angle. My concerns are why more and more of our brightest colleges (MIT, Standford, Harvard) struggling to bring in American students. More and more of our seats are being filled with students from Asia, Pakistan, Eastern Europe. These are not just numbers these are real live people.

So in terms of global competitiveness we have to get our collective you know whats in gear and find out why.

I will say from early reports our kids improved in 2008

 

[MM27]

With your statement, I'm still not understanding how this is a parent problem.

How is it a parent problem if the system/courts are set up for social promotion?

Color me shocked on how it is possible.

Then I guess you just won't understand. People (politicians included) can twist and turn it any way they want, but the fact is, there are parents out there that don't raise their children and will point at everyone else for blame. Blame the school district, the courts, the teachers, or whoever else you want to blame, but the fact is, if these kids came to school ready to learn, they would not be in this situation (unless there is a genuine learning disability).

 

[LisaR]

I can only speak for the schools I attended in England and France, but all did have art/music/drama/sports, etc. In fact, the school I attended in France had more art/drama/music than my Canadian school did.

Again, this small sample cannot be used to make generalizations.

I'll add to your small sample and refer back to the 2 kids I mentionsed earlier.

The Spanish student was great at drawing and has taken very advanced art classes at her school. She was enrolled in her schools drama club in high school and complained about PE in the lower grades.

The friend from Germany took music and art in both countries. The music program was very rigorous compared to our standards. Art seemed on par with what we have in the states.

I can see how this happens very easily. It used to be that kids could walk to the library after school to do their homework, now they can't leave their yard without an armed guard or parent OR they are too busy at football practice to go to the library so they don't get to practice HOW to use a library. The computer and internet is just too easy to do research so people don't take the extra step to go to the library. Heck, we didn't even HAVE a library in town until April of this year. They were smart and built it within walking distance of the schools so kids can walk over there after school and then take the activity bus home.

This is a college class. The class is supposed to be taught on an adult level. I don't care if everyone enrolled in the class is 12, it is drilled into our heads during the orientation that these are classes designed for adults. If you can't cut it, drop out - plain and simple. To design an assignment to teach adult high school graduates how to use a library is beyond ridiculous. I don't care if their mommy and daddy didn't allow them to go to the library when they were younger. They are old enough to figure out something that most kids learn in 2nd grade.

Somewhere along the road the school system apparently forgot to teach some kids to use a library. That is pathetic. Or, the teacher wanted a day off from teaching. Again, pathetic. I am not against fun assignments but this assignment was child's play. We continually dumb things down in our schools or we take the lazy way out and that is beyond sad.

 

[NotUrsula]

This is a college class. The class is supposed to be taught on an adult level. I don't care if everyone enrolled in the class is 12, it is drilled into our heads during the orientation that these are classes designed for adults. If you can't cut it, drop out - plain and simple. To design an assignment to teach adult high school graduates how to use a library is beyond ridiculous. I don't care if their mommy and daddy didn't allow them to go to the library when they were younger. They are old enough to figure out something that most kids learn in 2nd grade.

Somewhere along the road the school system apparently forgot to teach some kids to use a library. That is pathetic. Or, the teacher wanted a day off from teaching. Again, pathetic. I am not against fun assignments but this assignment was child's play. We continually dumb things down in our schools or we take the lazy way out and that is beyond sad.

I'm sorry, but that is not the case at all.

Almost every college in this country traditionally required a freshman class on library research; in my world we jokingly call it "Books n' Berries" because it was often entitled "Books and Libraries 101." Up through the early 1990's in most large universities it was a half-credit or one-credit class that meet once per week for about 8 weeks, at small liberal-arts schools it was sometimes more involved than that. In recent years Books n' Berries has been getting axed all over the place -- not because it wasn't needed, but because there has been a major movement away from required freshman courses.

However, we still do actively teach undergraduates how to use our libraries. University libraries are much more complex than public libraries, and most students have never been inside one until they arrive on campus. (And you would be AMAZED at how many undergraduates pride themselves on never having ever set foot inside a library -- even before the advent of online databases.)

The field is called bibliographic instruction, and it is a legitimate subspecialty in academic librarianship -- there are plenty of people who do Ph.D. dissertations on the topic. These days, the most common strategy is via self-guided online tutorials, but they tend not to get the use that we would like except when departments choose to force freshmen to go through them.

Here are some examples from MIT: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Materials-Science-and-Engineering/3-093Fall-2006/Tutorials/

 

[LisaR]

I'm sorry, but that is not the case at all.

Almost every college in this country traditionally required a freshman class on library research; in my world we jokingly call it "Books n' Berries" because it was often entitled "Books and Libraries 101."

I never encountered a class like that in my college career, nor did my DH. However, that isn't the point. The point is that this is a speech class. It isn't a class on how to use the library. The teacher didn't accompany the class to the library and teach them some little hidden secrets. She didn't give them any outside the box questions. They had to look up a few books and write down some info on the books like the ISBN and the publication date. This is a very elementary assignment that adults should already know how to do.

 

[NotUrsula]

That's my point, actually. Now that a general class for everyone is no longer required, the onus is now on departments to arrange for their students to learn research techniques. We still design the exercises, but the best way to get them done now is to have instructors assign them as part of a class.

The exercise your DD encountered does seem woefully simplistic, but especially if this happened at a community college, I cannot say I'm surprised, especially if the instructor happened to be an adjunct. I have nothing against adjunct instructors, but because they tend not to be resident on campus outside of class time, they sometimes don't take as much advantage of available library programs as they otherwise might.

 

[LisaR]

That's my point, actually. Now that a general class for everyone is no longer required, the onus is now on departments to arrange for their students to learn research techniques. We still design the exercises, but the best way to get them done now is to have instructors assign them as part of a class.

The exercise your DD encountered does seem woefully simplistic, but especially if this happened at a community college, I cannot say I'm surprised, especially if the instructor happened to be an adjunct. I have nothing against adjunct instructors, but because they tend not to be resident on campus outside of class time, they sometimes don't take as much advantage of available library programs as they otherwise might.

Thanks! I get you now and that does make sense. I do think the assignment that my DD had was far too remedial.

 

[BeachGirlFLA]

Thanks! I get you now and that does make sense. I do think the assignment that my DD had was far too remedial.

I think that particular assignment was too remedial; however, in my English Comp class we did go to the library to learn to use it for our research papers. They focused on Nexis/Lexis and other academic databases. From what I understand, the students who took English Comp I at the school (I took AP English) had the same instruction twice...once for Comp I and once for Comp II.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Why would any parent demand their child pass, knowing they can't read at the level they are supposed to? Why would a parent go as far as taking a school district to court if they needed to retain the child. How about the parent step up to the plate and take responsibilty for their child by teaching them to read, or making sure they get the help they need to do it and not worying about little Johnny's feelings when he gets held back.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with a system that allows parents that much power, but ultimately its the parent who is causing the child to be pushed through when they really shouldn't be.

Let's get to our criminal law system. (eta: doh--speeding is not criminal...but hopefully the point is not missed.)

Johny gets a speeding ticket. Mom takes him to court to fight it and INSISTS the child was NOT speeding. Do you really think the judge is going to let Johny out of the ticket b/c his mother says he wasn't speeding?


How in the world would an educational system or a court system cave to an insisting parent over their ignorant child who literally is incapable of reading?

If the system provides that much power to the parent--shame on the system.

If America is going to insist that all children receive a legally mandated education--then it is unfair of said system to promote such children who are not being educated b/c the uncooperative mom or dad scared them in a courtroom.

I'm all about stepping up to the plate, but seriously--7-8 hours a day in a school for 180 days a year (assuming no hefty absences that would prohibit promotion!)---that's an awful lot of time to simply blame an uncaring parent.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Then I guess you just won't understand. People (politicians included) can twist and turn it any way they want, but the fact is, there are parents out there that don't raise their children and will point at everyone else for blame. Blame the school district, the courts, the teachers, or whoever else you want to blame, but the fact is, if these kids came to school ready to learn, they would not be in this situation (unless there is a genuine learning disability).

Sadly it ignores any other faults in the educational system.

I came READY to learn chemistry in 1991. I was in a prestigious magnet school in New Orleans that only hires the best of the best. I figured chemistry would be hard and was surprised that though it was a little difficult remembering all those symbols--it wasn't too bad. Suddenly, with no warning, our unionized teacher was effectively fired (forced to resign). Somehow, he lost something along his teaching path as he was a well known teacher. I was not familiar with his history.

However--what I discovered was, we were nearly 3/4 the way through the school year and at risk for not meeting LA state standards for chemistry credit. We went in fast forward overdrive to get caught up--which is pretty sad.

All the parental help in the world, likely wouldn't have done squat, lest a parent all out teach chemistry at home.

Just like there are many anectdotes of the poor children who come to school without money and school supplies, there are many flaws in the school system that contribute to the problem as well.

It is simply dishonest to say the blame solely lies with the parents. There was a time when it was NOT parental responsibility to be so involved in the education with their children.

In fact one of my most compelling reasons for homeschooling is that I could teach a whole curriculum in the time that it would take me to deal with the present day compulsory parental duties for a child to receive a state provided educated.

The more teachers can place the blame on complacent parents, the worse the educational system will get.

 

[Planogirl]

I see what some of you are saying. But even though maybe our best and brightest aren't being as challenged by public education as they should be isn't the flip side of that the fact that our poorest and most underprivileged members of society are the best educated in the world? If we were to take a look at a the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder (so to speak) here and compare them to an equivalent group of kids in one of these other countries, which kids do you think have more resources available to them?

I'm just saying, maybe we're not really the problem, maybe the problem is the questions being asked do not take into account where we do excel as a country?

Which countries are you referring to? Some other nations do educate their poorest children and some don't. You can't paint all the countries of the world with one big broad brush just as you can't say that all schools in the United States are the same.