Do you think American kids get a bad rap on education?

Are American kids getting a bad rap on education?

  • Yes, I think the kids are the same everywhere and the test groups are different.

  • No, I think American kids deserve being labeled poor students.


Results are only viewable after voting.
I would go out on a limb here and say that if a kid that took high school Spanish spent several years living in Spain that that kid would be fluent as well. I don't consider it a great feat to live in a country for several years and becoming fluent in their language. The reverse is also true, there are many foreign exchange students that come to the US having taken English in their schools and they are no where near fluent nor can they really converse with their peers.

Maybe I wasn't clear. The kid born in Germany is fluent in both German and Italian - not unusual since he lived in those countries. But, he is also fluent in French and English. He never lived in France and he was fluent in English long before he moved to the US.

The Spanish exchange student was born and raised in Spain. She has never lived anywhere else. Therefore, being fluent in multiple languages is a great accomplishment when you consider that her skills came simply from taking classes at her school. Many kids in the US take years of language classes and can't come close to communicating with someone from another country.
 
It's not "rap" it's "rep" as in reputation.

Yes, but I think our system sucks. It's not for the kids gaining education, it's for the schools to get money from the government. Also they keep kids in there for so long, I would support switching to a ridged year round school system and going to the Europian system. Ours is a hot mess.

No, she means "rap" as in a "bum rap." She may seem to be conflating "bum rap" with "bad rep" but I don't think so. She's saying they're unfairly criticized or "getting a bum rap."

I agree with her that Americans test everyone (or nearly so) and that our test scores, per se, do not reveal the full measure of our best talent. However, I do think American education probably would be better off with a more rigorous curriculum. As I said on another thread, we need to stop making excuses and start demanding more. The problem (and I've even seen this here on the DIS) is that some parents without much education fight hard to preserve the current system as "hard enough" since it's what they knew in school, too. They say things like, "I never had to do that--it's too hard!" School discipline issues are a major problem, too.
 
I don't think American kid get an unfairly bad reputation on education. I think American kids are the laughing stock of the international education community for a very good reason. We've earned it!
 
No, I don't think our education in the country is near good enough. I think Obama's message is right on. We need to make education a priority with year round education. I'm not sure on the longer school days, but maybe rework the time they have now and see if that works.

The kids are really not challenged enough. Most parents I know have to supplement the curriculum.
 

Look at that, it seems we're split down the middle.

I still can't help but wonder about the comparisons we are making. I mean, if you compare an American straight A honors student who reads on her own and is exposed to various museums and the theater to a child who is just not as naturally intelligent with a disruptive home life in Japan or another country that is supposed to have smarter kids than us, wouldn't you still just see the same glaring differences? I just have a hard time thinking that innate ability between the individuals being compared doesn't have something to do with it.

I don't know about anyone else but when I discover an area I think the school is missing I cover it at home like study skills, technical reading, note taking. My kids' teachers have 30 kids to worry about and I just have 2, I totally have an advantage.
 
I don't care how many extra days they add to the school calendar or how many extra hours they add to the school day. We can continue to blame teachers, principals, school districts, etc. We can add extra funding, extra programs and anything else you can imagine to "improve" our schools. However, nothing will change until all parents take the same responsibility in raising their children and preparing them for school. For instilling in their children the importance of education and how it will directly impact their lives.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where many people pop out kids left and right and believe that once they start preschool or kindergarten, that their job is done. I cannot tell you how many times I have met with parents (of 4th graders) that are surprised that their kids can't read. They are quick to blame the school and teachers, but never acknowledge their own role in their child's education.

All of these countries that do so much better than the US have residents that value education. They know what happens when you are not educated and what impact it has on your future life. We don't have that here. I've had 9 year old girls tell me that it's okay if they don't go to college and/or get a job, because you can get money from the government, and if you have babies you can get your food paid for as well. :sad2:

The truth hurts, but we need to be honest with what the real problem is.
 
I don't care how many extra days they add to the school calendar or how many extra hours they add to the school day. We can continue to blame teachers, principals, school districts, etc. We can add extra funding, extra programs and anything else you can imagine to "improve" our schools. However, nothing will change until all parents take the same responsibility in raising their children and preparing them for school. For instilling in their children the importance of education and how it will directly impact their lives.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where many people pop out kids left and right and believe that once they start preschool or kindergarten, that their job is done. I cannot tell you how many times I have met with parents (of 4th graders) that are surprised that their kids can't read. They are quick to blame the school and teachers, but never acknowledge their own role in their child's education.

All of these countries that do so much better than the US have residents that value education. They know what happens when you are not educated and what impact it has on your future life. We don't have that here. I've had 9 year old girls tell me that it's okay if they don't go to college and/or get a job, because you can get money from the government, and if you have babies you can get your food paid for as well. :sad2:

The truth hurts, but we need to be honest with what the real problem is.

:thumbsup2
 
Something just happened a few minutes ago that made me think of this thread.

My 14 y/o is dual enrolled for the first time this semester. She is NOT gifted. She simply passed the test to get into college. Not a big deal.

One of her classes is speech. The age range of the students is from 14 (DD) to 25. I dropped her off this morning and 25 minutes later I get a text that she is done. I pick her up and ask why the heck they are done so early.

It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.
 
Something just happened a few minutes ago that made me think of this thread.

My 14 y/o is dual enrolled for the first time this semester. She is NOT gifted. She simply passed the test to get into college. Not a big deal.

One of her classes is speech. The age range of the students is from 14 (DD) to 25. I dropped her off this morning and 25 minutes later I get a text that she is done. I pick her up and ask why the heck they are done so early.

It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.

Oh my. That is so sad. I had a friend who homeschools who put her 17 year old into a college course, mostly because she thought he was slacking. You guessed it. The students failed to do and turn in work, didn't know what they were doing, etc. He came out with an A+, and an offer for the President's scholarship.
 
I don't care how many extra days they add to the school calendar or how many extra hours they add to the school day. We can continue to blame teachers, principals, school districts, etc. We can add extra funding, extra programs and anything else you can imagine to "improve" our schools. However, nothing will change until all parents take the same responsibility in raising their children and preparing them for school. For instilling in their children the importance of education and how it will directly impact their lives.

Unfortunately, we live in a society where many people pop out kids left and right and believe that once they start preschool or kindergarten, that their job is done. I cannot tell you how many times I have met with parents (of 4th graders) that are surprised that their kids can't read. They are quick to blame the school and teachers, but never acknowledge their own role in their child's education.

All of these countries that do so much better than the US have residents that value education. They know what happens when you are not educated and what impact it has on your future life. We don't have that here. I've had 9 year old girls tell me that it's okay if they don't go to college and/or get a job, because you can get money from the government, and if you have babies you can get your food paid for as well. :sad2:

The truth hurts, but we need to be honest with what the real problem is.

True....

But why would a parent first be told in 4th grade. The child should NOT have passed first, second, or third and if the parent fought it, the school would have told the parent(s) that their child could not read.

I have a hard time buying that the parents didn't know unless the system decided to just trot the child along expecting them to catch up at some point.

I do agree that many parents toss their kids out to school and they are done with them.

My mother was "kind of" like that--at least she appeared that way. But she was active duty military and didn't have much of a choice. Coming to open houses and parent meetings were difficult at best.

In fact for much of my early elementary career, her higher ranked husband would be coming to get me and handle things if needed b/c he was easier able to step out of the office for such things. As a pion, she was at the mercy of her superiors--and way back when...the military wasn't exactly family friendly (not sure what they are no!).

Heck, my driver's license acquisition was delayed by more than a year for similar scheduling issues.

However--my mother would have known if I couldn't read much earlier than 4th grade. They just didn't pass non-readers back then.

Both my brother and my sister were held back early on due to learning difficulties. Best decision for both of them despite being somewhat "elder" when they graduated high school. Both did go on to college and get college degrees.

************

Onto my own opinion of the topic in question--we have such a very different thought of the educational process than other countries. I know someone mentioned Japan. Well, that country has longer school days and goes to school more days in the year.

Our country would have a cow.

There just isn't enough time in the 12 years of school to get an adequate education that is comparable to other nations.

Plus as others have said, EVERYONE can get an education here. That is not a bad thing. But it can cause a "dumbing down" so that "average" here--will be "below average" in other nations. Again--nothing wrong with that inherently, but it makes for a tough comparison and borders us comparing apples and oranges.

Lastly--all the magnet schools, AP classes, IB classes--the reason we have those--is to create smarter students who have a better education. That is a sign that what our country has isn't adequate. And quite frankly--the availability of those classes extends only to the counties that have enough funds to provide those classes and the teaching staff capable of teaching it.

I am partial to some of the European models that have students tracking an area of interest much earlier in their high school (and perhaps middle school careers). But often, the complaint is "kids should be kids" and "why have them decide their life's work so early".

Parents often fight for their kids "right to be kids" and not so much for their "right to be prepared for life".

Education is part of child rearing--and one of my reasons for homeschooling is that I would likely spend MORE time with homework and keeping up with their teachers than it would take me to just teach the curriculum myself.

I saw that someone balked b/c their 3rd grader didn't have formal science for more than 1 week out of a 6 week period and didn't have any social studies.

Different curriculums do different things and this is the first year her science has gotten a bit formalized. Yet she performs astoundingly well on her standardized testing for science in the past 2 years despite us truly not cracking a science text book until this year. She just likes to read about it for fun and has fun with science kits. Science is all about the world around us and a 3rd grader not having a more formal science curriculum likely will not suffer.

Sometimes, I feel that our educational system in America can't see the forest for the trees (probably messed that one up, sorry!) and attempts to go about fixing things all the wrong ways. Until we get back to super basics with modern technology added in, it will just continue to spiral in the wrong direction.

I do not feel this way always--just sometimes.

I am not sure our country would know what the REAL problem is if it smacked them in the face. We have 50 different states and countless school districts and individual schools doing what "they" think they should to fix the problem with the "right answer".

The problem isn't just ONE problem and it is unfair to blame it on any one entity.

There's that old saying--you can't change others, you can only change yourself.

Schools can't make parents take an interest and parents can't make schools do what they think they should to properly education their children. We should stop pretending it is someone else's fault and stop playing educational victim.

Who was it--Ron Clark? (movie in which Matthew Perry played him and he now has a school in Atlanta). He didn't seem to blame anyone but opted to just teach the kids and did so in unconventional ways. Couldn't bring the kids to conform to how he did things, so he did things to appeal to them that would help them learn.
 
Something just happened a few minutes ago that made me think of this thread.

My 14 y/o is dual enrolled for the first time this semester. She is NOT gifted. She simply passed the test to get into college. Not a big deal.

One of her classes is speech. The age range of the students is from 14 (DD) to 25. I dropped her off this morning and 25 minutes later I get a text that she is done. I pick her up and ask why the heck they are done so early.

It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.

That's scary.

I would be curious about what she had them look up though.

My daughter is in a homeschool speech class for 4th - 6th graders. They did have to look things up the first week. But they were famous speeches (or lines from them) and they had to look up who said them.

So I tought her how to google those very specific things (use quotes) and she would check with me on reliable resources (we avoid wikipedia for example b/c they could be error filled.)

She did well. One quote was obscure so I pretty much had to do that "for" her. It came up on 2 web pages in a search that happened to be blogs and one was sooooooo lengthy that I just dug through it for her. She had done the other 14 herself and we are in our infancy of googling with her.

Since it is a Christian class--the other assignment was to look up scripture quotes.

The assignment was actually pertty valuble. But I can't understand making college students scavenger hunt in a library. I would guess my daughters first day was much more academic than that.

It's our first foreray into homework from another source and it is a bit challenging for her. But I am doing my best to have her do all of it with just my prompting as needed.

They have already completed 2 speeches (though they were little speeches). The first was the presentation of Bible quotes that pertained to public speaking and the importance of three things (words--and 2 other things) and then what she felt they were saying.

The second was a shield that had stuff about them--name, greatest accomplishment, biggest success in the past year, biggest setback, and a few other things.

They get a score sheet from the teacher and another student (different student each week)--the students keep scoring her less than the teachers. I think in some cases they are kind of mean.:rotfl: One scored her a 2 b/c her badget information was boring. The teacher scored her a 4. It was probably a 6th grader who finds 4th grade girls boring.:rotfl2:

I would :scared1: if it was my speech class.
 
Believe me, they were not hearing for the first time that their kid couldn't read in 4th grade. I don't know how other districts work, but in mine, a teacher can put in for a student to be retained and as long as the parents come in and put up a stink, the child will move on. It doesn't matter if the child is able to do the work or not. Is that a system issue? I guess you could say it is. However, in order to retain a child against a parents wishes, you would have to bring the parent to court and they usually side with the parents. I think the districts have realized that the parents get the final say anyway, so they give them that option. That's why in my 4th grade class I have students reading on pre-primer levels all the way up to 4th grade level.

I can't tell you the number of times that I have had parents come to conferences after the 1st marking period and look at the report card in shock because their child is failing. If you didn't know better you would think that I had never sent a test or quiz home, never called them with my concerns, etc. I've actually had to pull signed tests and quizzes out for parents to see that they were in fact aware that their child was getting low grades.
 
I believe 100% that public school children in the U.S. do not have the level of difficulty and therefore a substandard education when they finish, compared to schools in other developed countries.

The reasons this is true are many and varied and not consistent from school district to school district, but the end result is - our kids are not as well educated as Asian, European, even some South American students.
 
Believe me, they were not hearing for the first time that their kid couldn't read in 4th grade. I don't know how other districts work, but in mine, a teacher can put in for a student to be retained and as long as the parents come in and put up a stink, the child will move on. It doesn't matter if the child is able to do the work or not. Is that a system issue? I guess you could say it is. However, in order to retain a child against a parents wishes, you would have to bring the parent to court and they usually side with the parents. I think the districts have realized that the parents get the final say anyway, so they give them that option. That's why in my 4th grade class I have students reading on pre-primer levels all the way up to 4th grade level.

With your statement, I'm still not understanding how this is a parent problem.

How is it a parent problem if the system/courts are set up for social promotion?

Color me shocked on how it is possible.
 
Well, I see it both ways. I have cousins with children in the educational systems in Ireland, the UK and Spain, and when they get together with the kids of the US cousins, it tends to be interesting to compare and contrast.

IME, the main stylistic difference is that in the US, education remains general all the way through the undergraduate degree, whereas in most other countries kids are expected to begin to focus their studies on a career path beginning at around age 14. They simply stop taking those subjects that do not interest them and/or further their work ambitions.

As I see it, the main systemic problem that US schools have is the lack of a national core curriculum and national promotion standards. Thankfully, there now is a strong movement underway to get a curriculum designed and adopted.

With regard to the issue of parental involvement, there are plenty of parents in other countries who are uninvolved. I have a cousin who teaches the equivalent of 7th grade at a public school in Bradford, in the UK. It's a working-class city, and believe me, she has her share of difficult kids whose parents could not give a flying leap how they do in school. Most of the time, parental apathy is a product of economic disadvantage and a lack of education of their own; nationality doesn't make much of a difference. (And before someone mentions immigrants, let me point out that immigrant families are self-selecting -- most of them left their home countries *because* they were ambitious; it takes a lot of personal drive and fortitude to do it. Such parents tend to push their kids in much the same way that they push themselves.)
 
With your statement, I'm still not understanding how this is a parent problem.

How is it a parent problem if the system/courts are set up for social promotion?

Color me shocked on how it is possible.

Why would any parent demand their child pass, knowing they can't read at the level they are supposed to? Why would a parent go as far as taking a school district to court if they needed to retain the child. How about the parent step up to the plate and take responsibilty for their child by teaching them to read, or making sure they get the help they need to do it and not worying about little Johnny's feelings when he gets held back.
I'm not saying there isn't a problem with a system that allows parents that much power, but ultimately its the parent who is causing the child to be pushed through when they really shouldn't be.
 
I see what some of you are saying. But even though maybe our best and brightest aren't being as challenged by public education as they should be isn't the flip side of that the fact that our poorest and most underprivileged members of society are the best educated in the world? If we were to take a look at a the lowest rungs of the socioeconomic ladder (so to speak) here and compare them to an equivalent group of kids in one of these other countries, which kids do you think have more resources available to them?

I'm just saying, maybe we're not really the problem, maybe the problem is the questions being asked do not take into account where we do excel as a country?
 
Something just happened a few minutes ago that made me think of this thread.

My 14 y/o is dual enrolled for the first time this semester. She is NOT gifted. She simply passed the test to get into college. Not a big deal.

One of her classes is speech. The age range of the students is from 14 (DD) to 25. I dropped her off this morning and 25 minutes later I get a text that she is done. I pick her up and ask why the heck they are done so early.

It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.

I agree with you that an assignment that could be finished in 25 minutes was a waste. I confess, I'm very surprised at a school system that would allow a 14 y.o. to take college classes. Unless they're designated as "gifted," ours does not.

In reference to the assignment in question, "scavenger hunts" designed properly can be both intellectually challening and helpful, even at the college level. I have used them in Comp II (second semester college English), and students took a full 50-60 minutes to complete them, laughing that the questions were "reallly tough" and "made them work." I didn't have them looking up basic "elementary school" questions, but had them research resources that few, if any, high schools would have had. I wanted them to know a college library system.

Anyway, didn't mean to highjack this thread, but I hope you don't assume all "fun" activities must be light-weight.

Good luck to your d.d. Sounds like her current prof. will cause her few problems. Hopefully, she's run into a challenge soon.
 
...
It turns out the teacher had a scavenger hunt planned today for the class. They had to go to the school library and find all the things on the list. The purpose of the assignment was to make sure they understood how to use the library since they have a big speech coming up that will need research.

Every kid in this class is there because they have either graduated high school or passed a test to get into the college. These are not 2nd graders. By their age, they better know how to use a library! I am not sure why she thinks they don't. Either she has come across many students that age that need help or she is just being lazy. Either way, it does not bode well. What a pathetic waste of time. I am truly disgusted.


...
So I taught her how to google those very specific things (use quotes) and she would check with me on reliable resources (we avoid wikipedia for example b/c they could be error filled.)

She did well. One quote was obscure so I pretty much had to do that "for" her. It came up on 2 web pages in a search that happened to be blogs and one was sooooooo lengthy that I just dug through it for her. She had done the other 14 herself and we are in our infancy of googling with her. [...]

The assignment was actually pretty valuble. But I can't understand making college students scavenger hunt in a library. [...]

... And here we have an illustration of sorts. (And please understand that I'm not picking on either of the posters that I have partially quoted. I also know that the second poster was speaking of a middle-school aged student.)

I've been a librarian for over 20 years. I can tell you that the scavenger hunt was necessary because SO many incoming Freshmen believe that Google is just as good as an academic library. These days I work exclusively with postgrads in the hard sciences, and I cannot tell you how many of them STILL believe it, after at least seven years of higher education. The Speech teacher would have discovered very quickly who used the library's resources and who just Googled for the answers.

Even public libraries provide access to resources that are not freely available via Google, but undergraduate academic libraries provide far more of such resources. Furthermore, Google's search algorithm is set up in such a way that it is easily influenced by syntax, so HOW you search will determine the order of your result in most cases.

Here's a fun trick: do a Google search on terms A and B (pick any two terms you like, even phrases), each one entered one time in the search box. Print off your first page of results. Next do a search in which you enter term A four times and term B only once, (yes, just repeat the term 4 times in the search box) and examine how the results differ. Then reverse the search entry order and check it again. I predict that you'll probably get a bit of a surprise. (After five years of this work, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of PhD-level researchers who already knew about this difference when I first met them.)

Many, many studies done by Google and by academic researchers have shown that the average student who depends on Google will not look through more than the first three screens of results. The teacher could easily design questions that insure that the correct answer does not pop up in a predictable simple Google keyword search result until screen five or six, where almost none of the Google-dependent will persevere in looking for it.
 
I dont see how the parent is the problem..I have a 7 year old who i worked with all the time and yet he falls a little behind the other children in his class.It is wrong to blame the parents for it thats like blaming a gun for killing someone.When it was the person behind it how can you blame the parents when most parents to all they can to make sure there child has the best they can.. How ever i also wonder if we dont push our kids to hard because of all of this when does the child get to be a child i have a middle schooler who comes home with alot of home work every night of the week no time to play or be a child because of all of it. Could it be they are just burned out! I know i would be....
 














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