Do you have "class"?

[phamton]

I was reading a thread on the Resort boards on those who abuse concierge. http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=424642 When Tiiiigergirl posted this:

Originally posted by Tiiiigergirl
This has been an absolutly facinating thread for the socioligist in me. I think one thing that has people at cross purposes is the word class. For some they are looking at it as using your manners. For example you say please, don't cut in line and don't engage in overtly rude behavior. People of all socio-economic levels have this kind of class. Or sadly there are a few exceptions.

The other kind of class divides American societies into groups depending on the size of your community. Low, lower-middle, middle, upper-middle, upper, and upper-upper (if you can believe it!) People in each group know how to behave by nature in functions and settings unique to their group. Their parents teach them.
{snip}
I think two groups of people were using class correctly and differently. Or maybe I'm just sleep deprived!

This reminded me of a teacher inservice I attended on working with kids from generational poverty environments. The workshop mostly dealt with students and communication skills, etc, but they gave us a "test" (for fun) to see how well we could survive in poverty, middleclass, or wealth. I know some questions may be biased or generalized but it was still eye-opening to me. (If this doesn't belong on the community board, moderators, feel free to move this if it isn't appropriate here. This is the first thread I've ever started on the DisBoard so I am hoping it isn't offensive to anyone.)

Excerpt from A Framework for Understanding Poverty by Ruby K. Payne, PhD

Could You Survive in Middle Class?

1. I know how to get my children into little League, piano lessons, soccer, etc.
2. I know how to properly set a table.
3. I know which stores are most likley to carry the clothing brands my family wears.
4. My children know the best name brands in clothing.
5. I know how to order in a nice restaurant.
6. I know how to use a credit card, checking account, and savings account--and I understand an annuity. I understand term life insurance, disability insurance, and 20/80 medical insurance policy, as well as house insurance, flood insurance, and replacement insurance.
7. I talk to my children about going to college.
8. I know how to get the best interest rates on my new-car loan.
9. I understand the difference between principal, interest, and escrow payments on my house payment.
10. I know how to help my children with their homework and do not hesitiate to call the school if I need additional information.
11. I know how to decorate the house for the different holidays.
12. I know how to get a library card.
13.I know how to use the different tools in the garage.
14. I repair items in my house immediately when they break--or know a repair service and call it.

Could You Survive in Poverty?

1. I know which churches and sections of town have the best rummage sales.
2. I know which rummage sales have "bag sales" and when.
3. I know which grocery stores' garbage bins can be accessed for thrown-away food.
4. I know how to get someone out of jail.
5. I know how to fight and defend myself physically.
6. I know how to get a gun even if I have a police record.
7. I know how to keep my clothes from getting stolen at the laundramat.
8. I know what probelms to look for in a used car.
9. I know how to live without a checking account.
10. I know how to live without electricity and a phone.
11. I know how to use a knife as scissors.
12. I can entertain a group of friends with my personality and my stories.
13. I know what to do when I don't have money to pay the bills.
14. I know how to move in half a day.
15. I know how to get and use foodstamps or an electronic card for benefits.
16. I know where the free medical clinics are.
17. I am good at trading and bartering.
18. I can get by without a car.

Could you Survive in Wealth?

1. I can read a menu in French, English, and another language.
2. I have several favorite restaurants in different countries of the world.
3. During the holidays, I know how to hire a decorator to identify the appropriate themes and items with which to decorate my house.
4. I know who my preferred financial advisor, legal service, designer, domestic-employment service, and hairdresser are.
5. I have at least two residences that are staffed and maintained.
6. I know how to ensure confidentiality and loyalty from my domestic staff.
7. I have at least two or three "screens" that keep people whom I do not wish to see away from me.
8. I fly in my own plane, the company plane, or the Concorde.
9. I know how to enroll my children in the preferred private schools.
10. I know how to host the parties that 'key' people attend.
11. I am on the board of at least two charities.
12. I know the hidden rules of the Junior League.
13. I support or buy the work of a particular artist.
14. I know how to read a corporate financial statement and analyze my own financial statements.

 

[Eiblis]

WOW a real eye opener that one..

ermmm I fall between surviving in middle class and poverty.

 

[Jenn Lynn]

Pretty solid middle class for me.

If we were suddenly living in poverty I would have A LOT to learn to survive!

 

[phamton]

I fall in middleclass which was reasonable as I was raised in a middleclass family and am middleclass as an adult. I also learned many of the poverty rules this year because of a move and lack of income for a few months this year. There is difference in generational poverty and situational poverty (which is what I had). Those who are thrown into situational poverty because of loss of employment, divorce, or illness, etc. often don't know how to survive because we don't know the rules. We each bring with us the hidden rules of the class in which we are raised. Even though the income of an individual may rise or fall, many of the patterns of thought, social interactions, cognitive strategies,etc. remain with the individual.

Most schools operate from the middle-class norms . These norms and hidden rules are not directly taught in schools. Homework was given as an example for teachers. We expect our students to do homework, but if the student lives in poverty, they often face considerably more challenges to completing homework. Suppose, the electricity has been turned off or they are staying at the YMCA because they were kicked out of their apartment. Or the child is home alone, babysitting younger siblings while mom works a night job. Maybe neither of the parents can read and help with homework and the child has no phone to call a classmate for help.

I had a child in my 3rd grade class who carried a cellphone. It was against the rules for students to have pagers or cellphones at school. When I talked to him, he told me that his mother gave it to him. Since they were kicked out of their house, she would call him everyday after school to tell him whose house they were staying at tonight. It broke my heart.

 

[Tiiiigergirl]

That was a great article! I know with my job (I work in the social service field) that the expectations of navigating those programs are geared toward those with middle class norms. We often expect the most from those with the most modest of resources. I also adopted a special needs child. On his behalf I have to navigate a variety of social programs. It is tough and I was raised middle class, have a college education (even if I can't spell absolutely ) and consider myself to be of reasonable intelligence. When you try to step out of your "class" it becomes even harder! Although if anyone would like to give me the money I would certainly like to try to be upper class.

 

[isyne4u]

Phantom,
My principal had an inservice this past year discussing exactly this. As soon as you started talking about classes, I knew you were refering to Ruby Payne. Anyway, one of the things he pointed out was food at a restaurant. People in middle income look for food to be priced appropriately and to taste good. People in poverty don't care what it tastes like as long as they can get food. Upper classes expect the food to look a certain way and are willing to pay for it. He gave the example of going out to lunch with a friend who was very well off. He is more of the middle class edging towards the upper middle. He said for him when he wanted lunch he didn't mind paying the extra for it if it was worth it, but when they brought out a plate with one little piece of meat and a couple of asparagus stalks (whatever you call those things ) he was looking around for the rest of his meal. His friend meanwhile didn't think anything about the lack of food on the plate for the price of the meal. That to me was a real eye opener. (note my principal was well over 6 feet tall and was built as big as a house..former football player with shoulders that didn't stop, so that little bit of food was a snack for him!)

Interesting topic to bring to the cb.

thanks,
tara

 

[phamton]

Originally posted by isyne4u
As soon as you started talking about classes, I knew you were refering to Ruby Payne.

Thanks, Tara. I just moved to Florida from Texas 2 months ago and Ruby Payne taught our inservice. We lived only a few miles from her town in Baytown, TX. It was an excellent workshop. I was teaching in a low-income school (mostly migrant farm workers' children.) It's often hard to leave your comfort-zone but is necessary if you want to reach all the kids. I loved my school and the kids were wonderful.

I better end this reply quickly so I can go out and find "a life." Maybe I'll stroll over to the WISH board for some more sunshine.

Bev

 

[Beauty]

Definatly 100% Middle Class, ever explanation sounded just like my family....

Well me personally...this one doesn't fit,

13.I know how to use the different tools in the garage.

But DH does.

 

[TIGGERSMOM]

Nope ain't got no class!!

I am not sure where I fall, I answered 5 from the poverty, all of the middle and 10 from wealthy. So I guess I could survive anywhere.

I have met millionaires with absolutley no class and I have met people living barely above poverty who exude it.

Personally these test the socio-economic and have very little to do with the important "class" that matters in my world.

PS - Welcome to the DIS, your first thread is a very thought provoking one - looking forward to more.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Originally posted by TIGGERSMOM
Nope ain't got no class!!

I am not sure where I fall, I answered 5 from the poverty, all of the middle and 10 from wealthy. So I guess I could survive anywhere.

I have met millionaires with absolutley no class and I have met people living barely above poverty who exude it.

Personally these test the socio-economic and have very little to do with the important "class" that matters in my world.

PS - Welcome to the DIS, your first thread is a very thought provoking one - looking forward to more.

Add me to the no class team. I looked at the list and took a tally of the items in the middle class and poverty class that applied to me now and when I was a child. I came up with ten items from each class that applied to me as both an adult and a child.

I hate these workshops. I think they are very bais and insulting.

I don't care how much or how little money you make, unless you are new to this country, you know how to get a library card. People in all income levels decorate their homes for the holidays. I had no idea this was just something middle class folks did. Don't all people entertain friends with thier personality and stories? Only poor people know how to get someone out of jail?

All American kids know the best name brands in clothes. My experience has been the kids that get free and reduced lunch tend to be the the ones wearing the most designer clothes.

Having a high income doesn't mean you have class.

 

[Micca]

Re living with wealth: I don't know all those things but when I'm rich I'll hire someone who does

 

[disneyjunkie]

Originally posted by Micca
Re living with wealth: I don't know all those things but when I'm rich I'll hire someone who does

 

[JohnTBap]

We studied Ruby Payne extensively in college. Whether you see this information as biased or not, the fact remains that she completed her doctoral work on this theory, it is widely accepted by educators, and that it has helped many teachers and schools operating on middle class norms come to an understanding with children and parents from either generational or situational poverty.

People who use her work as a guide DO have a life. We teach. We care about children from poverty ENOUGH to identify WHY they don't succeed and TEACH them HOW to succeed in places with middle class norms.

Her work doesn't just end with the information that the OP put forth. It is very extensive. The guidelines are simply used as an "eye opener" to show what is important to each of the three classes that Ruby Payne identified.

 

[phamton]

Originally posted by disneyjunkie


I hate these workshops. I think they are very bais and insulting.

Having a high income doesn't mean you have class.

Actually the workshop was excellent. As I mentioned in the OP, the workshop was designed to assist teachers in recognizing the gap in communication that often occurs in the classroom. (See my example of "homework" in my second post.) The quiz on "Could you survive" was just a warm up (for fun--as I mentioned in the OP) before getting into the meat of the workshop. It was never used as a generalization and not referred to in the lessons. When I posted it, it seemed to make as much sense as the other quizzes on this board like "What Carebear/or 7 Dwarf are you?" I am sorry if some found it offensive. That was not my intentiontion and even said almost what you said in my first post:

Originally posted by phamton
I know some questions may be biased or generalized but it was still eye-opening to me.

Certainly high income doesn't mean you have class. That is why I preceeded my post by quoting tiiiiger5girls excellent words of wisdom:

I think one thing that has people at cross purposes is the word class. For some they are looking at it as using your manners. For example you say please, don't cut in line and don't engage in overtly rude behavior. People of all socio-economic levels have this kind of class.

I guess I better go back to lurking. I'm not too good at starting new threads. I do apologize for any who have been offended. Believe me, when I say I do not judge anyone by the money they may or not make. I didn't pity nor look down on any of my students. They all had "class" in my classroom.

Bev

Edited to add: Thanks JohnTBap. I was composing my post before your post showed up. You explained it much better than I did. Back to lurkdom.

 

[disneyjunkie]

Bev,please don't let my post stop you from posting here. If my post offended you, I'm very sorry. That was not my intent.

 

[Sugarbaby]

Aww,Bev, don't go back to lurking! It was a great thread! I enjoyed the quiz,and did understand that it was just for fun. If you have been a lurker,you know that sometimes no matter what you say there will be someone else with three reasons why you are wrong and/or offensive. It just goes with posting. So don't hold back,girl!

 

[Tiggeroo]

This is interesting. I was raised soundly middle class, my dh was raised during his early childhood in middle class, with a rapid descent to poverty when his father passed away leaving 6 children. Alot of the fights we have seem to be related to this list. He can answer many more of the poverty questions then the middle class ones. Alot of the things that seem perfectly normal to me and most of our friends are not for him. And alot of the things that most people have always known how to do, he doesn't. He can do them when forced but they don't come naturally. Hence, we have many fights about finances, and alot of things are left to me to deal with. And we disagree about raising our kids. He wants to give them advantages but the normal ways you raise a child towards college expectations, and success in school are forced with him. He'll back me, but he doesn't just naturally talk to our children or place demands on them that will encourage this. I fully believe that an inner-class marriage is as difficult, if not more so then an inter-racial one.

 

[isyne4u]

Phantom..keep posting, sometimes what is said on an internet bb comes across more insulting than it would in real life!

I have not read much by Ruby Payne, but I think a lot of it has an impact on the kids we teach.

It is true that not all of these statements fit any one group perfectly. But I think working with children you see a lot more of these traits than you would think. And i for one as a middle class person now, wouldn't know how to bail someone out of jail. I can't tell you who has rummage sales and I don't know where to go to get free food (I used to go to grandma's house for that!). But as a child I did get the food from the schools at Christmas time (basket of food on the front porch).

Keep posting Bev. Cool name! (it's my mom's name too!)
tara

 

[TIGGERSMOM]

Absolutley keep starting threads! I thought this one was great.

As my father once said "CLass will out!" And so it does.

 

[Robinrs]

I think all blanket generalizations have a tendency to be biased somewhat and nothing in life is black and white, so, yes, they can be a bit insulting. But I do agree that the basics do apply especially to those who have NOT lived in all three classes, such as the teachers who need to know to help out their students.

Living in Brooklyn most of my life and working in Manhattan most of my adult life, I lived with, dined with and grew up with every kind of social class. I understand ALL of them, so I wouldn't need a workshop such as this. If you live it you know it.

On the other hand I think it's imperative for everyone to understand how people live, think and react based on social class. Being a student of humankind, I find it so amazing. I consider myself "middle" but can hang with any of them. I had a very very VERY wealthy boyfriend when I was younger that loved taking me to his family get togethers because he said "you know how to talk to people"... He had no idea I grew up in the projects of Brooklyn and my Dad was a sharecropper who grew up in a house with no roof. Hmmmm....

I have two nieces that I love to death. One is a software specialist that lives in Nob Hill in San Francisco with a degree from Stanford University. The other is a welfare recipient with two children from two different men who cannot keep a job or a relationship. I love and understand them BOTH. I'm sure they don't understand each other... ... but I think it's important to make the choice to understand.

Sorry... this is a subject I truly enjoy!!