Do you believe misogyny exists and people should be protected from misogyny?

[Smugpugmug]

It is also an enormous twisting stretch from anything I have said. But, as no one appears to be interested in reading any actual data, I have said all that I will for now.

To be fair, one of the articles you posted has a paywall (or at least you need to make a NYT account) so that might be a reason why not as many people are reading it.

 

[LuvOrlando]

In efforts to make sure young women have all the same opportunities and resources that they did not have in the past, young men are being left behind. There is also a not so small element that feel that young women should be made the priority and the young men should suffer based on our society's past flaws.

So in your mind the ONLY path for women to have a chance at equality in the the world, meaning things such as equality with regard to educational access, compensation, expectations of safety and legal protections, men need to be damaged?

You are, unfortunately, an unwitting display of the subversive nature of misogyny and it occurs to me that you may be completely and utterly unaware. I'm not attacking, only pointing out how thinking that the wellbeing of men is somehow more valuable than the wellbeing of women seems to be the default. Have you ever considered why this is your default? Maybe you have and you decided to double down or maybe not, either way the conclusion you are espousing can't happen without deciding there is a hierarchy either consciously or unconsciously and women are not supposed to be sharing the top with men

 

[barkley]

Actually, that isn't true. At some point it might be, but right now it isn't.

For example, if the power grid dropped out in California right now, and all the men in the world disappeared at the same time, power would never be restored. It is not that women aren't capable of doing the job, it is just that there are not near enough women trained to do it.

It is the same in transportation, shipping, construction and the rest of the trades. Women could of course do the jobs, but right now there are not enough capable women in those industries to support the rest of society if there were no men.

can't speak for california but in my state it's not for lack of opportunity that females are not in larger numbers in the trades. every high school student has the option here to do-

traditional 9-12 grade
traditional 9-10 w/ 11-12 college attendance resulting in a diploma/associate degree
OR
traditional 9-10 w/11-12 trade school attendance resulting in a diploma/2 year skilled trades, health careers or professional skills certifications. the skilled trades programs have an abundance of local employers vying to hire from. females are actively recruited.

our local utility company activly recruits and employs females. an abundant number of the scholarships they award each year to pay for line-school are to females and is evident in the common place sighting of females working on the power lines when we have an outage.

I have one skilled trade out to my home several times per year-i have not had other than a female tradesperson more than a handful of times in over 10 years. I observe women in all aspects of skilled trades and heavy construction routinely in my region.

we have had a state wide organization since the late 70's encouraging and facilitating females in the trades with training, networking and scholarship. their trade shows and hiring fairs are packed with employers looking to hire females.


are there still fewer females in these jobs than males? yes, but it's not for lack of opportunity-it by virtue of personal choice (at least where I live). many young females have heard the same 'lesser than' bashing of a career in the skilled trades vs. getting a college degree/any college degree as their male counterparts but they appear buy into that mindset in greater numbers b/c recent reports show that the split on college enrollment currently sits at about 57% female to 42% male.

 

[gsdweller]

So in your mind the ONLY path for women to have a chance at equality in the the world, meaning things such as equality with regard to educational access, compensation, expectations of safety and legal protections, men need to be damaged?

You are, unfortunately, an unwitting display of the subversive nature of misogyny and it occurs to me that you may be completely and utterly unaware. I'm not attacking, only pointing out how thinking that the wellbeing of men is somehow more valuable than the wellbeing of women seems to be the default. Have you ever considered why this is your default? Maybe you have and you decided to double down or maybe not, either way the conclusion you are espousing can't happen without deciding there is a hierarchy either consciously or unconsciously and women are not supposed to be sharing the top with men

I'm sorry, but I am against everything you just stated. I am not in any way unaware. Please reread what I have written. I think everyone can have what they need. There is more than enough in this world for everyone to be successful. All I stated is that the way things have turned out, in order to try and give young women what they need, young men are being left behind and it is a travesty.

 

[LuvOrlando]

I'm sorry, but I am against everything you just stated. I am not in any way unaware. Please reread what I have written. I think everyone can have what they need. There is more than enough in this world for everyone to be successful. All I stated is that the way things have turned out, in order to try and give young women what they need, young men are being left behind and it is a travesty.

Are you saying you believe women are actually equal right now and the fight for equality is overkill?

 

[sam_gordon]

I'm sorry, but I am against everything you just stated. I am not in any way unaware. Please reread what I have written. I think everyone can have what they need. There is more than enough in this world for everyone to be successful. All I stated is that the way things have turned out, in order to try and give young women what they need, young men are being left behind and it is a travesty.

No, you also said women need men "to get by". Then you tried to defend it saying "if all the power went out and all the men disappeared, it would take a long time to restore power".

I disagree men are being left behind to give women what they need. I think some people are reacting to women should be treated with respect. Actually, all people should be treated with respect, but it was withheld from women until relatively recently. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way, and some people don't know how to take it.

 

[gsdweller]

No, you also said women need men "to get by". Then you tried to defend it saying "if all the power went out and all the men disappeared, it would take a long time to restore power".

I disagree men are being left behind to give women what they need. I think some people are reacting to women should be treated with respect. Actually, all people should be treated with respect, but it was withheld from women until relatively recently. Now the pendulum is swinging the other way, and some people don't know how to take it.

Young boys are being left behind to give young girls what they need. There is mountainous data proving this.
I agree that everyone should be treated with respect. That is my core point. If we see that the pendulum is swinging the other way - or swinging at all - we should be intelligent enough as a society to stop it and give everyone what they need to thrive. Somehow, we cannot manage to do that.

I did refute a statement that "Women CAN get by just fine without men though. That's just a fact.". That is just not true.
The opposite is also not true. Men could not get by just fine without women in society.

 

[Moliphino]

can't speak for california but in my state it's not for lack of opportunity that females are not in larger numbers in the trades. every high school student has the option here to do-

traditional 9-12 grade
traditional 9-10 w/ 11-12 college attendance resulting in a diploma/associate degree
OR
traditional 9-10 w/11-12 trade school attendance resulting in a diploma/2 year skilled trades, health careers or professional skills certifications. the skilled trades programs have an abundance of local employers vying to hire from. females are actively recruited.

our local utility company activly recruits and employs females. an abundant number of the scholarships they award each year to pay for line-school are to females and is evident in the common place sighting of females working on the power lines when we have an outage.

I have one skilled trade out to my home several times per year-i have not had other than a female tradesperson more than a handful of times in over 10 years. I observe women in all aspects of skilled trades and heavy construction routinely in my region.

we have had a state wide organization since the late 70's encouraging and facilitating females in the trades with training, networking and scholarship. their trade shows and hiring fairs are packed with employers looking to hire females.


are there still fewer females in these jobs than males? yes, but it's not for lack of opportunity-it by virtue of personal choice (at least where I live). many young females have heard the same 'lesser than' bashing of a career in the skilled trades vs. getting a college degree/any college degree as their male counterparts but they appear buy into that mindset in greater numbers b/c recent reports show that the split on college enrollment currently sits at about 57% female to 42% male.

Women often don't stay in male dominated fields because the men make it a toxic work environment, too.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

So in your mind the ONLY path for women to have a chance at equality in the the world, meaning things such as equality with regard to educational access, compensation, expectations of safety and legal protections, men need to be damaged?

You are, unfortunately, an unwitting display of the subversive nature of misogyny and it occurs to me that you may be completely and utterly unaware. I'm not attacking, only pointing out how thinking that the wellbeing of men is somehow more valuable than the wellbeing of women seems to be the default. Have you ever considered why this is your default? Maybe you have and you decided to double down or maybe not, either way the conclusion you are espousing can't happen without deciding there is a hierarchy either consciously or unconsciously and women are not supposed to be sharing the top with men

This is not how I understood the comment.
To me it sounded more like, In order to build one side up, you don’t have to knock the other side down.

 

[barkley]

Women often don't stay in male dominated fields because the men make it a toxic work environment, too.

agree (and I've seen the reverse happen with males hiring into traditionally female dominated fields) but I don't think all traditionally male dominated fields are inherently toxic towards females and that there have been TREMENDOUS and intentional strides in addressing, reducing and eliminating toxicity.

 

[sam_gordon]

Young boys are being left behind to give young girls what they need. There is mountainous data proving this.
I agree that everyone should be treated with respect. That is my core point. If we see that the pendulum is swinging the other way - or swinging at all - we should be intelligent enough as a society to stop it and give everyone what they need to thrive. Somehow, we cannot manage to do that.

So what's the solution?

I did refute a statement that "Women CAN get by just fine without men though. That's just a fact.". That is just not true.
The opposite is also not true. Men could not get by just fine without women in society.

It depends on your definition of "get by" and "just fine" though. Does a woman need a husband or boyfriend to own a home, get a job, or raise a family (we won't go into 'making' a family )? No. A man doesn't need a wife/girlfriend for the same things either.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I don't think all traditionally male dominated fields are inherently toxic towards females and that there have been TREMENDOUS and intentional strides in addressing, reducing and eliminating toxicity.

I think you might need to say that last part out loud because you've just proved the PP's point. In order to make large and intentional strides you first have to recognize that you've got a problem to begin with and also to realize we're still not there in many ways.

 

[barkley]

Does a woman need a husband or boyfriend to own a home, get a job, or raise a family (we won't go into 'making' a family )? No. A man doesn't need a wife/girlfriend for the same things either.

gotta say-and I REALY hope it's changed but when I worked in DSHS it was a world of difference in treatment and access to services between an identicaly in-need woman with a child vs a man with a child. it was the default assumption that the only way a single man could be remotely capable of caring for a child without a female was an intact female support system already in place that was providing for the child's needs. we had active outreach for single moms in so many supportive services but none for men. community programs with public funding that openly did not serve men using the excuse that their funding was exclusivly for women (um, yeah-because you ignore the single dads who are in the same sinking boat). I saw child support enforcement more active towards absent fathers vs. absent mothers. a single mom with an unrelated adult male living in the house did'nt get a second glance but a single dad with an unrelated adult female had to provide a pile of paperwork about that person and their finances and 'contributions' to the household. it was unreal and grossly unfair.

 

[prairie_girl]

Yes, of course it exists.

There are several professional people that I will specifically ask my husband to deal with because I know if I try, nothing will get done. It’s very frustrating.

 

[LuvOrlando]

This is not how I understood the comment.
To me it sounded more like, In order to build one side up, you don’t have to knock the other side down.

Exactly the point, why is there a belief that building one up is knocking the other down? How are the two things intertwined in people's minds? How is it that you see gains for women the same as losses for men? Please, walk me through how you get there.

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

The anti male speech in general is at an all time high in my almost 60 years of living.
Women say things online like, "If this baby is a boy, I'm getting an abortion. The world doesn't need more men."
That sort of thing.

 

[Moliphino]

The anti male speech in general is at an all time high in my almost 60 years of living.
Women say things online like, "If this baby is a boy, I'm getting an abortion. The world doesn't need more men."
That sort of thing.

And men are murdering their wives because they found out they were having another girl. He also stabbed their two daughters, though thankfully they lived.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...finding-out-unborn-babys-gender-8477171/amp/1

 

[ruadisneyfan2]

And men are murdering their wives because they found out they were having another girl. He also stabbed their two daughters, though thankfully they lived.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nd...finding-out-unborn-babys-gender-8477171/amp/1

Of course, I'm not saying that is right either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do women want equality or revenge?

ETA: After reading that story, that is just horrific. Still these are not societal norms. Not even slightly. Most men would find this horrible too. My husband would want him put down like a sick dog but people protest that too. Are you implying men find this acceptable? Is there a way to prevent criminals from doing the sick things they do?

 

[BrianL]

The anti male speech in general is at an all time high in my almost 60 years of living.
Women say things online like, "If this baby is a boy, I'm getting an abortion. The world doesn't need more men."
That sort of thing.

Nobody is saying that who is worth listening to. That is not mainstream thought, just some internet weirdos who probably don't even mean it. Don't worry about what people like that say. Society as a whole is plenty tolerant of masculinity. Of course, masculinity doesn't mean being a jerk, which there are some guys who think that it does. Real men respect and support women, and doing so doesn't undermine their own confidence or sense of self worth.

 

[Moliphino]

Of course, I'm not saying that is right either. Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do women want equality or revenge?

ETA: After reading that story, that is just horrific. Still these are not societal norms. Not even slightly. Most men would find this horrible too. My husband would want him put down like a sick dog but people protest that too. Are you implying men find this acceptable? Is there a way to prevent criminals from doing the sick things they do?

I mean, homicide is the leading cause of death for pregnant women in the US, so this was not exactly an isolated incident.