Disturbing day this AM at daycare - Update pg 4

[Christine]

I think I'll carefully step out here and remind everyone that *I* used the term "wacko" and not Hillbeans! I use that term loosely after years and years of experiencing some crazy stuff and at predominately day care centers. Sometimes it was just very bad. I don't want to make anyone feel bad about using daycare centers, we all have to do what is convenient and works at the time, I know I did. But in hindsight, I just cringe at some of the things my kids were subjected to. This, in no way, is a reflection on the staff who in my mind were very good. There was just usually too many kids, not enough breaks for the workers, and a situation of burnout. I also KNOW that there were more disciplinary problems in the centers than in the home daycares. I know that the employees aren't supposed to talk but they do and many of these kids just had terrible home lives and parents who did not care. After seeing it time and time again, it is hard for me not to throw up my hands and use *bad* phrases. Also, these kids were not special needs and the center was quite open about not being able to accommodate that.

As for wacko kids, I do have two of my own that I'm sure did their share of things there. Both of them have ADD/ADHD and are now considered "special needs".

I've read Hillbeans ongoing daycare situations and, from experiencing this stuff myself, it really, really wears on you. Most of them are all minor things but when they keep happening, it just gets to you.

 

[Hillbeans]

Bethany,
So what you are telling me is that I, as a person paying $550 for 3 days a week care, shouldn't be told that a child on a daily basis is hitting the teacher, spitting, throwing a fit, making the teacher physically stand in front of and block the doors?????

How is that fair to me? I'm not asking for anyone to break "privacy" laws, but I should know something as serious as a teacher having to physically hold down a child from hurting themselves, the teacher and the other students.

I know their has to be some neutral ground, however I think I should know what's going on there so when my son comes home crying that so-and-so was removed from the class, I know what to say.

 

[robinb]

Originally posted by Hillbeans
Bethany,
So what you are telling me is that I, as a person paying $550 for 3 days a week care, shouldn't be told that a child on a daily basis is hitting the teacher, spitting, throwing a fit, making the teacher physically stand in front of and block the doors?????

Wait. You're taking one incident and blowing it up all out of proportion. How do you know this happens daily? You don't. You saw it happen one time and one time only.

I know their has to be some neutral ground, however I think I should know what's going on there so when my son comes home crying that so-and-so was removed from the class, I know what to say.

And what would that be? What would you say?

By all means, talk to the director when you pick up your child. Make an appointment so you can be sure to catch her. Make sure you know extractly what your issues are. The safety of the girl? The behaviour of the teacher? Your son's sensitive feelings? Your sensitive feelings?

Honestly, unless you homeschool your child will be exposed to children who are have issues and disabilities. He will meet evn more children once he goes to elementary school and children who are not used to even daycare or pre-school will enter the educational system. IMO, it's best that he, and you, learn to deal with these kind of things now.

 

[twinmomplus2new]

Are you sure your in Jersey??? This could be my neice your talking about. Although it was yesterday that she pulled a flip out like this.


As Kimberle said Please don't call little kids a whacko. She could have been tired, upset, or just plain spoiled and that is not within her control. Children become out of control it takes time for them to learn to control themselves. Of course some of us are blessed with easygoing kids others not so much.....

AS for the mom in question. Like I said My neice did this yesterday... Her mom was very distraught and crying about it to me on the phone. She fealt like the worst mom on earth leaving her there. And I will tell you it was all over a rather large stuffed animal. They are not allowed in school. No outside toys period.... SHe knows the rule. Threw a fit at home and mom let her bring it. Of course the teacher said,,, mom will hold that for you later. She flipped, screamed hit, kicked, spit.... Apparently it was beyond ugly. But you know what Mom wanted them to break the rules and let her keep it so she would stop. Thank god the teacher nixed that... Mom is not talking to me, Because she wanted to sneak back in and put it in her cubby anyway... And there my friends is why she acted that way,, she knew mom would give in. So I bascically told mom... don't you dare etc etc.. you just never know... They act in a way that gets them results..

 

[bananiem]

Actually I think I brought up the privacy thing. I don't make the rules I just had to enforce them.
Under the Privacy Act unless the child is hurting your child you would not be told. If she has been diagnosed with a behavior disorder or syndrome they will not be able to disclose it to you. However they should be able to assure you that they are working on it, if it's an on-going problem. Don't feel like they're trying to keep secrets from you. They will give you as much reassurance as they possibly can. But once these laws are made the employees hands are tied.
I can see the point of the law too. If it was my child I wouldn't want everybody to know that their was a behavior plan in place. People are very judgmental and it wasn't uncommon for me to hear "My mommy says I can't play with Johnny 'cause he bit me in the toddler room." And this was when they were 5 years old and 3 classrooms later. Most of the time the kid was an angel by the time he got to my class.
Like I said, it's a law that the employees didn't write aor ask for, but they have to follow.

 

[Hillbeans]

Originally posted by robinb
Wait. You're taking one incident and blowing it up all out of proportion. How do you know this happens daily? You don't. You saw it happen one time and one time only.

By all means, talk to the director when you pick up your child.
IMO, it's best that he, and you, learn to deal with these kind of things now.

First of all, the way the teacher and the parent acted made me KNOW this wasn't the first time. If it were, the teacher would have been surprised and the parent wouldn't have just run out the door. I'll know later today what's going on because you can be sure i'm going to ask.

I think your last line is a very rude thing to say. You say that I should just sit back and pretend nothing's going on and just chalk it up to nothing?? How is that any way to raise my child? I'd know how to deal with it if I KNEW it was going on in the first place.

 

[bananiem]

Actually this is a great time to teach compassion. Tonight, when you talk to your son about his day ask him the usual stuff like what he did for art and had for lunch and stuff. Then ask about "Mary" and "Boy, she was having a rough morning, wasn't she?" Then go into how she misses her Mommy and I bet you're a good friend to her... You might get a lot of info out of him by just casually asking a question or two.

 

[Hillbeans]

Originally posted by bananiem
Actually this is a great time to teach compassion. Tonight, when you talk to your son about his day ask him the usual stuff like what he did for art and had for lunch and stuff. Then ask about "Mary" and "Boy, she was having a rough morning, wasn't she?" Then go into how she misses her Mommy and I bet you're a good friend to her... You might get a lot of info out of him by just casually asking a question or two.

That is a good idea.....because I really do want to know what's going on with my son. I'm not trying to be mean to anyone nor make some little girl who has a disability feel left out. I just was shocked seeing my son's teacher physically restraining a child. It was a first for me.

I just think as a parent who sends a child to school, I should have *some* idea of things that go on.

 

[robinb]

Originally posted by Hillbeans
I think your last line is a very rude thing to say. You say that I should just sit back and pretend nothing's going on and just chalk it up to nothing??

I never said to pretend it didn't happen. I said you and your son will have to learn how to deal with children who are different. bananiem has a good point. Use this as a positive learning experience and not a negative one.

 

[RadioNate]

I am the parent of that child! Ok well my not that exact child but you described my son when I leave him at preschool. He went to parents day out for nearly 18 months and has been in preschool for about 2 months and guess what EVERY time I leave him there he screams, kicks, rolls around on the floor, and generally acts like like someone is killing him. Teachers have had to block the door so he doesn't run out after me. In the one-year-old room at parents day out they had to put one of those door knob things on the door because he was bolting as soon as he could walk.

But guess what - I've been told by the 6 different teachers he has had over the years that he stops before I can make it out the center door. And they are right, I've suck back to his room may times only to see him playing quietly and behaving well. All of his teachers have commented about his theatrics and how dispite his display he is one of the most well behaved children in his class.

I would be completely mortified if another parent went to the director about my son. I have tried for YEARS to get him to stop and he still throws giant embarrasing tantrums. I've tired leaving quickly, staying to comfort, timers, extra hugs, no hugs and he still does it. What can I say, he puts on a good show...maybe this girl does too.

 

[Hillbeans]

Originally posted by robinb
I never said to pretend it didn't happen. I said you and your son will have to learn how to deal with children who are different. bananiem has a good point. Use this as a positive learning experience and not a negative one.

My son knows how to deal with children that are different. In his class there are boys and girls that are White, Black, Indian, Chinese, Japanese and Spanish and the speak different languages and have all sorts of differences.

With that being said I still feel very uncomfortable seeing a child with so much physical strength hit and kick his teacher right in front of his eyes. My opinion on that won't change. It was violent and upsetting.

 

[bananiem]

Originally posted by Hillbeans
I just was shocked seeing my son's teacher physically restraining a child. It was a first for me.

I can understand your shock. Having worked in the field I can assure you the employees were not. Restraining a child during the morning seperation is an ongoing situation. The situation you described is a bit extreme though. Banging her head on the floor and being self-injurious is a reason for concern. If it's a good center I'm sure they have a plan in place.
You probably didn't notice because, as you said you were in shock, but how did the rest of the kids seem to be handling it? Sometimes kids can so easily block out the stuff that doesn't affect them.
Also, we used to remove kids from the classroom when they were hitting and kicking at teachers (which didn't happen often at all.) But if the teacher was the only staff person in the room at the time, or if the other staff person in the room is relatively new and can't be left alone with students yet, or the center was short-staffed so another person wasn't able to come to her aid... Those are all reasons why the tantrum may have happened in the room in front of the others. They may have even tried separating in area of the center and today was the day to try it in the room.

 

[SpecialK]

I am not going to address the issue of the tantrum here.

In my opinion, if you have felt displeased with this center and minor incidents have bothered you, by all means explore other options.

When my oldest was in day care, there were a couple little things that bothered me but I put them out of my mind. After #2 was born and I decided to stay home, I had some conversations with other parents and found that they had the same discomfort. Had we communicated at the time, I would have found a different placement for my son.

If you are at all uneasy with the level of care that is being provided, do something about it. Talk to other parents, talk to the director, explore other options. This is one of those times when you need to trust your instincts.

I repeat - not addressing the tantrum here.

 

[justhat]

I too worked in a day care before my daughter was born, while I was in school to get my doctorate in child psychology. We had a child join us for our summer camp who went to another preschool that only ran during the school year. She threw tantrums like this everyday when her mother dropped her off. She was 4yo at the time so she also had to be physically restrained or she would have run out the door as well, and we often ended up with bruises as well. She would continue on like this for about 20 minutes each day and was then generally okay after that (though some days had more tantrums later on). One week her mother had to go to work early so her father dropped her off and she smiled, kissed him goodbye, and went off to play without even a tear the whole week! It was incredible, you would not have known it was the same child. The next week mom was back and so were the tantrums. We talked to the mom about how the child was an angel when the dad dropped her off and for the rest of the summer the dad dropped her off and that was the end of our problems. I'm not sure after my years of psych training why there was such a difference since both parents had similar routines when dropping her off, but I also didnt' care as long as it worked. I'm sure it has something to do with her being more clingy with mommy in general, maybe the mom is more likely to give into her demands, etc. So it's also possible that this child may be the same way with one parent, but they know she's okay.

 

[m&m's mom]

I think you are perfectly justified being alarmed at the situation you and your DS had to witness. I would hope if this was an on-going issue they would make some kind of arrangements. I do not think banging your head on the floor to that extent is anything a daycare worker should be expected to deal with.
I also know from my years at daycare that the daycares always have to use more time on the "highly needy" children. Not fair ro the rest, but just think that our kids are learning how to cope early.
Maybe on the way home you can use this as an intro and talk about how it may have made him feel. I really miss the alone one-on-one time I had w/ my DD's going to and coming home from daycare. It was the only time we were together that there was not something else distracting us.
Good Luck and try to not let it upset you too much!

 

[BethanyF]

Originally posted by Hillbeans
Bethany,
So what you are telling me is that I, as a person paying $550 for 3 days a week care, shouldn't be told that a child on a daily basis is hitting the teacher, spitting, throwing a fit, making the teacher physically stand in front of and block the doors?????

How is that fair to me? I'm not asking for anyone to break "privacy" laws, but I should know something as serious as a teacher having to physically hold down a child from hurting themselves, the teacher and the other students.

I know their has to be some neutral ground, however I think I should know what's going on there so when my son comes home crying that so-and-so was removed from the class, I know what to say.

No, what I said was:

it is very possible the child you mentioned has some sort of learning disabilty. I would be insulted if anyone told me they didnt want my child with the other children since he wasnt 'normal'. We have worked very hard to have my son in a regular classroom. Kids like him need to be with typically developing children to learn to better behave in society.

Obviously, this is a sore subject and I will remove myself since i am not very good at debate. I stand by my above statement as to being insulted if someone asked my child to not participate because he wasn't 'normal' It's discrimination.

 

[Disney Doll]

You need to do what's best for your child, and if you think that this daycare isn't the best situation for your child, then you need to find another.

If you think this other child's behavior is disruptive and distressing enough that it is going to cause difficulty for you rchild, then by all means, find another daycare provider for your child. Nothing against the little girl, she obviously has issues that we assume are being addressed, but her issues are not your rpoblem.

 

[kadaten]

Originally posted by Hillbeans
What bothers me is that this teacher had to PHYSICALLY block the door and not pay any attention to the other kids while not letting this child go out the door. If this girl is special needs she may need to be in a different daycare situation. It was very upsetting and I feel for any parent that has to go through that on a daily basis. I think the parents should know what's going on and what their children are being exposed to at their daycare and this was a shock to me today. I'm also not asking for any personal information about this little girl, however i'm very concerned for her well being and the teacher after I saw what she had to go through today...she's going to have bruises for sure (the teacher).

IF that child has special needs, you can bet that her special ed team has thought about which environment is best for her.... and have decided a normal classroom offers her things like good models of appropriate behavior, appropriate learning activities for her age, etc. However a tantrum does NOT mean this child is special needs. Many, many children have tantrums....some rarely, some often.

As a former preschool special ed and regular preschool ed teacher, I can tell you tantrums do not make a child special needs. I had one kid in my SPED class that tantrumed; over 5 years in regular preschool, I had 2 that did. I, unfortuantely, have had to physically restrain a child in my class. She was pummeling my assistant who could not get her off. Believe me, it is not something I wanted to do, but I had to for the child's safety as well as the safety of other children and my assistant. My assistant was left bruised up and down her legs. This child was diagnosed ADHD in a regular preschool classroom. Would it have been easier for me if her parents had put her in a special ed classroom. Sure. But that's not what she needed. She needed to see how other 4 and 5 year olds behave, how they complete their work, how they relate to each other, how they follow directions, etc. Also, she was exceptionally bright and did well in our program. These children frequently do not know how to handle a well of emotion inside of them and react by lashing out. With this child, we tried to help her learn to deal with her anger and emotion in appropriate ways rather than tantruming.

One of my "regular" kids who tantrumed in my "regular" classroom only did so when her mother was pregnant! Sounds strange, I know. BUT that's when it happened. She already had 2 younger siblings and had tantrumed through both of those pregnancies. When she came to my class, mom was pregnant again. To this day I have NO IDEA what about her mom being pregnant set her off....but I do know that the day the baby came, she was back to her angelic self! SO, you never know what might be going on at home, too....

I wouldn't change centers because of this. If the teacher handled it appropriately, you have nothing to worry about. I *would* worry if the teacher freaked out, had no idea what to do, or reacted inappropriately (screaming, being rough with the child, etc). On the one hand, I might feel a little better that your child's teacher is well-trained enough to know how to deal with those kinds of problems.

Moving centers won't solve your problem. It'll just be a different kid acting out next time.... Since your child seems worried/bothered by the behavior, definitely talk to him about it. Let him know it's ok to be worried, find out if it's the noise or hitting that bothers him, explain that some children have a hard time sometimes communicating how they feel and so may act out, that the teachers are trying to help the little girl feel better about leaving her mommy, etc. Maybe even suggest something he can do if it bothers him....maybe if it's happening and he's nearby, it would be a good time for him to find a book in the cozy reading corner until the noise has died down....

I know it's tough for you. You only want what's best for your child...like we all do! That just means you're a good mom. But I wouldn't hold this against the center or the little girl or the teacher or the girl's parents. She's just at a different place on the learning curve..... Good luck to you and your son!

PS--If the other things were reflective of the center or teachers, then they are something to worry about. But not this particular episode....this was noone's fault and they seemed to react appropriately.

Sorry so long....

 

[tw1nsmom]

Hillbeans: I wasn't trying to dismiss your concerns. I was actually responding to the other poster that referred to the child as "wacko" and implied that a good daycare would remove all "bad" children.

Christine: Yes, my children's preschool is prepared to deal with various developmental issues. However, it isn't a daycare. As far as I know there aren't any special ed daycares available in my area. My children go to school 2 1/2 hours a day. If I weren't a SAHM they would be going to regular daycare for the remainder of the day. Even if it existed, most people wouldn't be able to afford it. Any special education services are very expensive. Our preschool charges over $26,000 a year for a program that lasts 2 1/2 hours, five days a week, following a regular school calender. I shudder to think what full time special education daycare would cost. So I ask again, where should my children go (if they needed daycare), if they shouldn't be in daycare with your children? (Hillbeans, this is directed at Christine)

Kadaten: I realize that the child could very possibly have no disability. My DD is more prone to tantrums than DS and she hasn't been diagnosed with any behavioral disability. I think most of the people that have reacted so strongly did so because of the strong language that was used in the second post. A lot of us that have children with invisible disabilities are spending our lives hearing comments in grocery stores/restaurants, etc... that indicate that our child is a brat, spoiled, too loud...and that we are bad parents. It automatically makes me and a lot of others sensitive to people criticizing/judging situations/people that they know nothing about. I've also had to deal with parents who know exactly what kind of disabilities the children at Ds's school have and don't want their children interacting with "those kind" of kids.

 

[Hillbeans]

Again, I really wish there was a good solution. Quite frankly, i'm not overly thrilled at being a working mom myself, and Daycare is not my favorite thing either.

My daycare can be very good for my child, but at times I feel like it's overstimulating him with noise and yelling when he needs some quiet time. I also feel like some of my son's needs (not to be gross but we're still training him to do # 2 in the potty and they WON'T let me send him in underwear because they don't have the time or the want to change poopy underwear). Is that becuase they're busy or busy with other kids needs? Isn't my need important also?

I truly do feel for all of you parents who have children with serious special needs. I can't imagine what you go through. Personally, I don't know what this girl is going through or whether she is special needs or just "spirited". I'll let you know what happens tonight after I ask.