Disney with toddlers -the good bad and ugly

[Channyn]

We've been to Disney twice in the last few years. The first trip was with our 18month old and then 2 years later...with our 12 month old and 3 1/2 year old. I will admit we are one of those families that enjoyed every minute of our time there. The girls on both trips were great. We really went with what worked for them at the time. We slept in each morning, had breakfast in our room and let them play...we arrived at the parks by 10 or 10:30. Everything went smoothly...no melt downs. On both trips the girls fell asleep in their strollers around 3:00 for an almost 2 hour nap. (The baby had a couple naps throughout the day) We would just take it easy, walk around, shop and have a snack. Then they were good to go all night. We would usually get back to the room by 10:00 -10:30, they would quickly fall asleep and we could relax for a bit before we went to bed. I think the key is that we never pushed it, relaxed and went withthe flow. Each child and family is different, so I think you just need to adapt to your own ways.

 

[brightspark]

Can I pass on a tip which made our visit SO much easier!

The hippychick hipseat!

I don't know if you can get these in the US but this is a life (and back saver). Wear it like a belt over your clothes and you have a seat for your child to sit on (6months-3years). I wore it all the time - esp for waiting in lines... made a huge difference to my abillity to hold DS (19 months) for long periods of time!

I can't seem to get a picture to work on here, but if you google it - you'll find plenty of info!

 

[Trinity524]

My son has been 2 times and will be going again in Sept. He was exactly as he was at home with the guaranteed meltdown at the same time every day. We stayed at Poly last year and every night when we got off the boat from MK we would have to pass the pool to get to our room in Tokelau (sp). Even though we ended every night in the pool, at 22 months he could not understand that he had to get on his bathing suit first and it made for a hellish return. We finally learned we could walk a different way and it was much better. Just something to keep in mind!

 

[happymommy]

We've been taking our kids since they were 2 and 4, and had a wonderful time from the first trip (where we drove 1000 miles straight through the night, it was after 9/11 and I wouldn't fly that year). We brought our double stroller, and the kids both took a long nap in it every afternoon. I remember one afternoon at DAK, the kids both fell asleep, so DH and I parked ourselves at the bar and relaxed and had a couple of beers. We were there for 11 nights, so we took our time and relaxed, never rushed much, just enjoyed everything. It helped that the place was beyond dead - early December right after 9/11 - no lines anywhere. We also got a great deal on the BWV, so had space which totally spoiled us!

We never had many meltdowns that I can remember, and my DS has severe ADHD. There is so much to distract him at WDW that I think that helped.

I even started taking the kids when they were 4 and 6 without DH, as I found WDW to be the easiest place to bring young kids.

We've almost never gone back to the room specifically for a nap, although a few times we would just to chill out if it's hot outside. Sometimes we'd fall asleep, sometimes just relax and watch some tv (which is awful at Disney, can't they get some better channels?).

We use fastpasses, plus I get a GAC for my son due to severe asthma (we don't stay too long in the parks, as it's gotten worse as he's gotten older, never had it much when he was young, although had several bad cases of pneumonia). I always try to plan fun things, but also know that little kids don't always want to sit through a long meal, so many of our meals are quick.

We took a stroller until the kids were 7 and 9, and really did need it.

I agree though - my DD would get cranky and upset, then we'd sit and eat something and she'd turn into the sweetest little girl. We didn't know she was hungry! Matter of fact, sometimes really young kids don't know themselves that they're hungry. I don't think we ever brought sippy cups, as we got straws everywhere except DAK. I may have had juice boxes with us there.

I would take a child any age to WDW - although the teen years I'm getting scared of!

 

[Zeebs]

If I am tired I am cranky...... (then we become one of those families that get comments of why is she yelling at her child in Disney of all places)

If the kids are tired they are cranky..... (then we become one of those families that get comments of why are their parents not sorting those kids out)

Our one and only trip so far to WDW was great kids were 11 months and 2.5,

We had no meltdowns on that trip which I attribute to sticking to a similar schedule as at home.

We would be at the parks for opening (staying offsite so no EMH) and then carry on until around 3.30 - 4.00 maybe a little later if the kids were doing ok, before heading home for a swim or dinner. Kids in bed around 7.30 pm

They got their needed 11 hours of sleep, we got our 8 hours of sleep.

On our 1 late night at MNSSHP (baby slept through the entire event in the stroller) we had a day off the next day we did visit Epcot around 2.30 in the afternoon for a dinner at Coral Reef around 5.

We recently had a trip to DLP and as it was cold and nothing to do if you weren't in the park(except hang out in the room) we did opening to close then dinner, Seth 2 a couple of major meltdowns, fighting and a lot of whining. We still had a good time but it wasn't the same easy trip as it was to WDW.

Kirsten

 

[Stasieki]

Love your number 1, so true!! Not only that, but their quirks are compounded exponentially! You have a tantrum thrower at home, he'll be a holy terror at WDW. But I really wanted to comment on #2.

We've known since DD was 5w old that she needs complete darkness and quiet to sleep. And if she gets that, she'll sleep for 4 hours. If conditions aren't right, she won't sleep and we have a majorly cranky child.

So when we went on our first trip with her we stayed at CSR so we could put her crib in the closet. Then we pulled the curtains to keep out light and distractions. It worked great, but we had nowhere to go for 4 hours. So we hung outside on the walkway and got drunk.

Our 2nd and 3rd trip (and 4th coming up) we have rented a 2-bed at Bonnet Creek (next to the Four Seasons on(off) property). She gets her own dark room, and we have the rest of the suite to chill out and do whatever (get drunk usually ).

Thanks for the review!

Your experience is just like ours. Our first trip with our DD we stayed at CSR and had the same difficulties with naps (needs long naps like your DD), last year we stayed at Bonnet Creek and are in love. Planning our next trip for October (will have a 6 mo old - due March 30th, whoo hoo) and will stay at Bonnet Creek again. I thought about trying a Deluxe hotel and DH told me I was nuts - he was right - it was just a pregnancy moment.

 

[AlexandAndysMom]

When my youngest was 14 months old, we took my oldest to WDW for the first time...I know, mean mommy...but there were other things going on too, and he couldn't go...but he did get to spend great time with grandma.

My oldest was 6 and had a blast. We knew we would be going back with both kids, and he had been having some issues with 'the baby' so we wanted to do something special just for him. He is my angel and always has been. And he immediatly had a meltdown our first night there at the MNSSHP when he put his candy bag down and forget it. He wanted to go home...not hotel room home, but on a plane and back home...lol. Thanks to a wonderful cast member, his problem was solved and we had a wonderful trip.

Fast forward 11 months. Thanksgiving week with the family (hubby, both boys, grandma, grandpa, and me) As angelic as the oldest one is...well, we just call the youngest one THE MONSTER. He did so much better than we thought he would. And we were prepared for the worst. Yes, he had his meltdown every morning over breakfast because he wanted to 'do it myself' (like cut the waffles...). What we figured out real quick is, don't fight back..he wants to cut the waffles and it takes 10 extra minutes before he asks for help, what's 10 minutes?? He refused to take naps (unless we were on the bus), but really, he did surprisingly well...and was asleep on the bus immediatly...lol. When he didn't want to ride in his stroller, we went someplace where he could roam for a few minutes and get it all out. If he didn't want to wait in line, we got out of line. When he was hungry, we ate. We also split up quite a bit. I rode the bigger rides with the oldest (cause hubby is a big baby!! ) and hubby took the monster to a play area.

The biggest thing we learned on that trip was that a) we want to do it again...and will be for his 3rd bday in August b) go with the flow...let them dictate how fast or slow you move and c) just like at home...pick your battles...if you don't you will all end up miserable and that isn't how it should be at Disney....

And, I love my little monster and wouldn't trade him or his attitude (which he got honestly) for anything!!

 

[Cinbride]

we survived. Everything went really well. Yes, there were a few small meltdowns but we just took it slow. We did a break everyday except one. my 2.5 was okay with that. She used the stroller a lot more than I thought she would. We carried our 4.5 mth old most of the time esp in MK. In other parks we put her in the stroller more. We thought we would need a harness. We didn't buy one. Everything was fine. Crowds were pretty low so we could keep an eye on her easy. all in all it was a success and my 2.5 yr old and I can't wait to visit again.

 

[photographymom517]

Does disney have toddler cutlery available? I guess its another thing to pop in my bag if not!

I didn't see any children's cutlery anywhere at any of the resorts or parks. I would take some along...the Take & Toss kind are wonderful for trips! Not sure how old your child/children are, but I mailed myself a box (to our resort) full of baby supplies...disposable bibs, diapers, silverware, bowls, baby food, baby cereal, extra binkies, etc. It worked out wonderful...the box was waiting for me at the hotel when I arrived & I didn't have to worry about putting all the extras in my luggage (we didn't have the room because I already had all of those things in our bags...but I mailed myself extra everything!) With an infant or toddler, you never know how much of anything you will need. But I highly recommend the "take & toss" because you can just throw them away at the park after your meal.

 

[kstinw19]

We have done the Disney trip with many different toddlers at many different ages and every time it's a different (but great) experience.

1. Your child will behave at Disney like he does at home, so be prepared. Logically I knew this was true, but I was so excited for the Disney experience that I pretended he would be docile and just overwhelmed with joy to be doing whatever we wanted to do. Instead, I was upset and angry and embarassed when he consistently refused to get in his stroller at the parks without an epic struggle involving copious amounts of screeching and bucking like a bronco. He wanted to walk, but he can't endure all that yet, and besides, his version of "walking" was darting in and around the crowds at warp speed and trying to climb trash cans. This resulted in a lot of us carrying our 35-pound baby, which in turn exhausted us. This was stressful.

I do agree with this and that is why we are bringing the "leash"/backpack so that ds2 can walk a bit on his own.

2. If your child doesn't nap during the day, you will have problems. we observed the mid-day retreat to the hotel for his regular nap, but the room just wasn't dark enough and he fought it and wouldn't go down. He did sleep briefly in the car coming and going. But he was not pleasant in the afternoon. Unfortunately, it was 35 degrees while we were there, so we couldn't have a relaxing pool afternoon.

ITA with this too. We have never had the kids that will just crash in the middle of the afternoon. What we have done is that either dh or I will take the little one out of the park and take them either on the monorail or boat and just keep riding it for an hour. It sure beats sitting in the hallway.

3. Seriously consider a 1BR if you can afford it. We did this and it was money well spent with a very active boy who runs around every waking minute. The garden grocer delivery was also a good call. And the rental crib.

ITA!

4. Some of the kids' rides are plain weird. Peter Pan incorporated dead pirates laying across the ship deck and even Winnie the Pooh has a strange psychadelic dream sequence that looks like Pooh ate some bad mushrooms. I don't understand this.

the Pooh acid trip is a bit odd...I think it's a 70s throwback thing.

6. Always carry a sippy cup. Some places, like the Hoop-de-doo Review (which he loved, by the way), don't even have lids. They served his milk in a giant glass bell jar. Not good.

The Hoop Dee Do was probably our biggest mistake...no sippy cups, no kid size food, too high chairs, and the restrooms are outside. We only made it through 1/2 the show because we were spending most of the time in the restroom!

7. Good stuff: he loved the actual rides when he was riding them. The carousel, Dumbo, Aladdin's carpets, Small World, Winnie the Pooh, it was all great. And he loved the character breakfast (or at least he didn't cry). He also loved the Hoop de Doo Review, I think because we were so close to the stage. We had some nice moments, but it wasn't easy.

Glad that you had some nice moments

 

[kelleyrn2000]

We went several years ago when my dds were 2yrs and 3 1/2. My youngest was prone to tantrums (first full blown tantrum at 9months!) anyways, but I think there was only one time where we had a major meltdown at MK and I had to carry her out of the restaurant. She ended up falling asleep on the bench outside...just overtired.

As far as the characters, she was afraid of all of them, until we went to see JoJo and Goliath! She gave them such hugs I could cry thinking about it. Then, we got to meet Mike and Sully from Monsters, Inc. I have THE BEST picture of her hugging Sully...priceless! Those were her favorites at the time.

This year we will be traveling with our 24 month old son in June, along with our girls. I am thinking about doing a 5 day pass, and just visiting our favorite parks more than once so we don't feel rushed to do everything in one day.

Luckily we have a double suite thanks to great grandmother's timeshare and it will have a full kitchen and there will be 3 bedrooms, so naps should be easier. Grandma is really trying to get us a first floor suite too, so that lugging the stroller and/or kids back and forth to the pool will be easier. I hope they can do that!

For meals, we will typically eat breakfast in our room, then pack many snacks (bananas, pb&j, water, applesauce) and bring them to the park. Maybe do a later lunch, and then we can either go out to eat for dinner or if the kids are tired cook at hotel/order takeout, etc.

I'm a little nervous going with all three kids, but I am hoping the "magic" will overcome all of us
and we will have fun. I will admit I have thought about the "babysitter" idea ALOT! DH likes to not have other people with us on vacation though.

Thanks for all the tips because I will use them!

 

[champagnegirl26]

I didn't see any children's cutlery anywhere at any of the resorts or parks. I would take some along...the Take & Toss kind are wonderful for trips! Not sure how old your child/children are, but I mailed myself a box (to our resort) full of baby supplies...disposable bibs, diapers, silverware, bowls, baby food, baby cereal, extra binkies, etc. It worked out wonderful...the box was waiting for me at the hotel when I arrived & I didn't have to worry about putting all the extras in my luggage (we didn't have the room because I already had all of those things in our bags...but I mailed myself extra everything!) With an infant or toddler, you never know how much of anything you will need. But I highly recommend the "take & toss" because you can just throw them away at the park after your meal.

Thanks for the info
Im from the UK and so am not aware of take and toss cutlery
Well I guess i understand the concept we just do not get them over here. Can you get them at wallmart? are they in the baby section? We may get some once we get there
Thanks

 

[nelsonkg]

I smiled as I read your post because it could have been me writing it. Our last trip with our then two year old was definately filled with challenges. I was surprised by this because he had done so well at age 1.
The first ride we went on was Pooh. I was so excited to take him on it. He was TERRIFIED and tried to jump out of the honey pot! He wouldn't get on anything for the rest of the day unless it was an outdoor ride! It made me realize how many of the rides have a scarey element to them.
He was also overwhelmed even with us keeping his schedule and going at a slow pace I just think there was too much stimulation for him. I actually felt guilty about bringing him on the trip sometimes because he seemed stressed by it all. This made it tough on our 8 yr old who was ready for everything. So we had to split up a lot.
Our best memories of that trip are the character meals and lazing around at stormalong bay with him happily playing in the sand. He also LOVED AK and the Living Seas and of course MK train ride.
I agree on the 1 bedroom we have always had the extra room so the kids can sleep and we can have some adult time.
We usually go to WDW every year but we are skipping this year and waiting until he is 4. We want to make sure he is ready the next time.

 

[MommaMouse411]

1. Your child will behave at Disney like he does at home, so be prepared. Logically I knew this was true, but I was so excited for the Disney experience that I pretended he would be docile and just overwhelmed with joy to be doing whatever we wanted to do. Instead, I was upset and angry and embarassed when he consisten tly refused to get in his stroller at the parks without an epic struggle involving copious amounts of screeching and bucking like a bronco. He wanted to walk, but he can't endure all that yet, and besides, his version of "walking" was darting in and around the crowds at warp speed and trying to climb trash cans. This resulted in a lot of us carrying our 35-pound baby, which in turn exhausted us. This was stressful.
ahh this just happened recently after 20something trips to disney in the last year in a half, you never know which "personality" will come out from your kids, and I have two LITTLE ones

2. If your child doesn't nap during the day, you will have problems. we observed the mid-day retreat to the hotel for his regular nap, but the room just wasn't dark enough and he fought it and wouldn't go down. He did sleep briefly in the car coming and going. But he was not pleasant in the afternoon. Unfortunately, it was 35 degrees while we were there, so we couldn't have a relaxing pool afternoon.My 2yr old is not a napper but I always brought the big comfy stroller and he always napped in there and if I was tired, hot or cold, we hung out in the baby center

3. Seriously consider a 1BR if you can afford it. We did this and it was money well spent with a very active boy who runs around every waking minute. The garden grocer delivery was also a good call. And the rental crib.yes the bigger the room the better, I experienced a suite the other day and I was like this is what I needed to book in previous trips

4. Some of the kids' rides are plain weird. Peter Pan incorporated dead pirates laying across the ship deck and even Winnie the Pooh has a strange psychadelic dream sequence that looks like Pooh ate some bad mushrooms. I don't understand this.LOL too funny, but some of the movies themselves are weird!!

5. Some toddlers, like mine, cannot tolerate wait in line for more than 10 minutes. This means that even with expert fast pass usage, you might not get on more than 3 rides all day (and that's in low season). learned that the first real trip after my 1s son turned 1...no standing in lines more than 15minutes...we used fastpasses and was able to go on all fastpass rides

6. Always carry a sippy cup. Some places, like the Hoop-de-doo Review (which he loved, by the way), don't even have lids. They served his milk in a giant glass bell jar. Not good. I always bring water, sippy cup, juice, snacks

7. Good stuff: he loved the actual rides when he was riding them. The carousel, Dumbo, Aladdin's carpets, Small World, Winnie the Pooh, it was all great. And he loved the character breakfast (or at least he didn't cry). He also loved the Hoop de Doo Review, I think because we were so close to the stage. We had some nice moments, but it wasn't easy.my 2yr old loved the Backyard BBQ and all character breakfasts too

OK, that's all I've got. Good luck to all you toddler travelers - have fun![/QUOTE]


but when I went i just had the mindframe like something will happen, my kids were so cranky at MVMCP they made me miss the christmas parade!! I was soooooo disappointed and I'm like well we'll try again next year...lol

 

[Colleen27]

Does disney have toddler cutlery available? I guess its another thing to pop in my bag if not!

No, they don't. I'd strongly recommend picking up some "take and toss" cultery and sippy cups if your child needs them. We spent our last trip washing the set of silverware that resides in our diaper bag after each and very meal (no matter how messy). Disposable would have been much better; we could have washed it to reuse when convenient but not worried about it when it wasn't.

DD is 29mo now and has "graduated" to real silverware and cups for the most part, though she does still have trouble with heavy or oversized glasses. We're still ordering take-and-toss sippies and silverware with our diaper delivery order, just in case. For $3 each it is money well spent for the a extra convenience.

 

[Colleen27]

The sleeping thing is one I wish hotels esp. Disney would try and figure out. While I know you can get 2 rooms or a bigger room. some just can't do it. I wish there was some sort of curtain/like at POR sink areas that you could use and divide the room. In saying this, I am considering doing something like that. Buy a couple of suction type hooks and a sheet??? I don't know. That is one thing I am afriad of at disney. Our girl needs her sleep.

That's one nice thing about the moderates (and it seems they're going to add it to the values too - they did at Pop with the refurb) - the privacy curtain that closes off the sink area creates a perfect place to put a pack & play to keep it dark and quieter than the rest of the room.

 

[Ava]

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. We're taking DD on her first trip in May, she'll be just turned 2 when we go. I'm trying to have realistic expectations & be prepared to just go with the flow. In general she is pretty good, not too many tantrums/meltdowns, but she is not a stroller sleeper so I'm really hoping she's able to nap at the hotel each day. The grandparents are coming with us & we've requested connecting rooms, so if we get them we'll be able to put DD to nap in one room & hang out in the other. If we don't get the connecting rooms I guess we'll try putting her pack & play in the sink area behind the privacy curtain & then will just have to sit quietly reading while she naps. We use a white noise machine at home which we'll bring with us so hopefully that will help too.

I also want to do the CP breakfast with her (she loooves Eeyore), but I scheduled it for a few days into the trip. That way we'll have time to see how she reacts to the characters & let her get used to them, and if she's terrified of them we'll just cancel the breakfast.

A question for those who have BTDT - what was your "touring plan" when you went with a toddler? I feel like I should have some idea of which attractions to hit & in what order, just so we aren't all standing around trying to decide what to do next, but I don't want a full schedule that we won't likely be able to stick to.

 

[growinupdisney]

After reading alot of these posts I realize I'm lucky.We took my dd3 when she was 8mo, 2, and 3 we will be returning in 3 mo when she will be 4. So far we have not had any problems, she has napped in her stroller, never had an argument about getting in her stroller, only one problem with the characters and that was when she was 2 and the very first Character she saw was GOOFY she did not cry but I had to stand in the middle of them because I could tell she wasn't too sure about him. The next Character she saw was Minnie and I couldn't keep her away she wouldn't stop hugging her. I don't even recall her crying on any trip at all!

She sleeps in the hotel rooms no problem! I have more of a problem with my older two kids who are 16 abd 13 they fight with each and my dd16 iusually has something to complain about.

The only thing that I think that has made my dd like this is since she was born she has had to accomidate with our lifestyle versus us accomidating to her, having teenagers around it is never quiet, I would vaccuum when she was napping and she slept right through it. When it was her nap time it might be when it was time to pick the kids up from school so she had to adjust.

She learned to nap wherever! She is not one to wine or cry unless she gets hurt. I used to be a coach and she has come with me to competitions, practices etc. and sat quietly and never been one to run around a not listen. I give her something to occupy herself and she is good. When she is done playing with her toys she sits and watches whats going on. I do realize I am lucky I have parents(of teenagers) all the time tell me how well behaved she is.
I'm sure if my dd3 was not enjoyable to be with in WDW we would not be going every year. I can pretty much count on it. But, thankfully since my oldest was 5 we have been every year and hopefully if we are lucky enough will continue to go every year from now on!

I started going to WDW when I was 7 and we went every year all the way up until I got pregnant with my oldest. I do remeber how much of a butthead I was to my parents when I was a teen and at WDW (i guess that's where my older dd gets it from) but if I was really bad that would'nt have continued to bring us back every year! So far for ME it's not the toddler age its the teen age at Disney that's "the good, the bad, and the ugly" Don't get me wrong my dd16 is a good girl but, she is a struggle to wake up for rope drop, she is never satisfied with the food unless its pizza and she constanly wants to shop. So I'm hoping this is just her teen years that are the aggravating ones! As for my DS he is just like my dd3 laid back and happy wherever we are!

 

[Colleen27]

A question for those who have BTDT - what was your "touring plan" when you went with a toddler? I feel like I should have some idea of which attractions to hit & in what order, just so we aren't all standing around trying to decide what to do next, but I don't want a full schedule that we won't likely be able to stick to.

Well, our situation was a little different since it sounds like you're only planning around one child. We have three with a 10 year age difference between oldest and youngest, so our touring plans were pretty much the same as they always are but with notes about places to take DD2 to play while we took turns taking the big kids on the rides. I think that's something I'm actually going to miss when DD2 gets big enough for all the rides - the kids got to ride everything twice because of the baby swap (once with me, once with DH)! But we also left things flexible, with a general plan that we knew wouldn't be followed to the letter.

We do the deluxe dining and used lunches as a break from the excitement - booked non-character table service meals so that DD could concentrate on eating and resting - but we didn't take breaks back to the resort. DD napped just fine in the stroller. And we stopped for lots of snacks. Those snack credits have never been as useful to us as when traveling with a little girl who wants four bites of food every two hours!

The only thing that I think that has made my dd like this is since she was born she has had to accomidate with our lifestyle versus us accomidating to her, having teenagers around it is never quiet, I would vaccuum when she was napping and she slept right through it. When it was her nap time it might be when it was time to pick the kids up from school so she had to adjust.

She learned to nap wherever! She is not one to wine or cry unless she gets hurt. I used to be a coach and she has come with me to competitions, practices etc. and sat quietly and never been one to run around a not listen. I give her something to occupy herself and she is good. When she is done playing with her toys she sits and watches whats going on. I do realize I am lucky I have parents(of teenagers) all the time tell me how well behaved she is.

My DD is the same way, I think for the same reason. She's 10 years younger than DS and 7 younger than DD, and she's had no choice but to go with the flow, sleep in her stroller or the baby bjorn, learn to tune out background noise, etc. With the older kids, it seemed sometimes like she spent more of her first year at sports fields and scout meetings than at home. At two, she is the most laid back, flexible, go with the flow kid I've ever known - she doesn't cling to routines or get upset with changes, she very seldom has tantrums/meltdowns even when we have long days, and even though she is very busy and loves to run around, she listens well and enjoys restaurant meals.

We had a wonderful trip with her when she was 16mo - the 12yo was a lot bigger source of drama! If she hadn't had such a good time or had been more difficult, I doubt I'd be planning our March trip.

 

[TinkWink]

This thread has been so helpful AND hilarious!

We'll be going when DD is 26 months old. We're going to rent a stroller and take our harness/leash thing. We only have one dinner booked - we did the rest as breakfast and lunch since I figure she is more likely to be happy earlier in the day. We plan to go back for nap time just about every day, too! We plan to be flexible with the meals throughout the day and take snacks with us. And if we get Peter Pan and Dumbo rides done, that will be good enough!!! I keep telling myself that, anyway!