Disney will post Alligator warning signs and fences

[whiporee]

I wasn't saying that, and you know it.

I thought the boulders in the water would make a good, attractive deterrent to alligators approaching the beaches. And as they are scaling them, they'd mostly likely be seen. You clearly disagree (and I think it was the first time I've ever seen anyone on the DIS suggest something costs too much, so Disney shouldn't do it. But there have been a lot of firsts in this discussion, so there's a new one).

I don't think there's an issue with people being in the water at all -- the attack last week was a fluke, but it did represent what I think is a growing problem of the plethora of alligators in suburban Florida. You clearly disagree that it's a growing problem.

Likewise, I don't think it's wise or valid of Disney to actively work to keep its visitors from using the resources of their resort. You clearly disagree. I think Disney should work to find a way to make wading in ankle-deep water or hanging out on a lake-front beach appear to be something other than death defying activities. You seem to disagree.

And as for the Niles, I never said they were breeding. I don't know (neither do you or anyone else). But if they do, they become a problem fast. So they should be aggressively searched for and removed from the Glades. No one thought pythons were a problem until they became one, and I'd hate to have the same thing happen with Nile crocodiles, because they are more tolerant of cold weather, larger and more aggressive than American Crocs or alligators. And since my stance on alligators has been oft (if not well)-stated, I think adding another large predator, apex or not, to Florida's food web would be a bad thing.

 

[dres40]

What part of "no swimming" means stay completely out of the water due to dangerous animals?

Weird that you left that out of your example, isn't it?

Agree! You can't "ignore" a sign that is not there. This poor child was not swimming.

 

[LSLS]

I wasn't saying that, and you know it.

I thought the boulders in the water would make a good, attractive deterrent to alligators approaching the beaches. And as they are scaling them, they'd mostly likely be seen. You clearly disagree (and I think it was the first time I've ever seen anyone on the DIS suggest something costs too much, so Disney shouldn't do it. But there have been a lot of firsts in this discussion, so there's a new one).

I don't think there's an issue with people being in the water at all -- the attack last week was a fluke, but it did represent what I think is a growing problem of the plethora of alligators in suburban Florida. You clearly disagree that it's a growing problem.

Likewise, I don't think it's wise or valid of Disney to actively work to keep its visitors from using the resources of their resort. You clearly disagree. I think Disney should work to find a way to make wading in ankle-deep water or hanging out on a lake-front beach appear to be something other than death defying activities. You seem to disagree.

And as for the Niles, I never said they were breeding. I don't know (neither do you or anyone else). But if they do, they become a problem fast. So they should be aggressively searched for and removed from the Glades. No one thought pythons were a problem until they became one, and I'd hate to have the same thing happen with Nile crocodiles, because they are more tolerant of cold weather, larger and more aggressive than American Crocs or alligators. And since my stance on alligators has been oft (if not well)-stated, I think adding another large predator, apex or not, to Florida's food web would be a bad thing.

Not being in the water is not because of alligators. There are lots of other reasons. And you are creating a place that is much more likely to attract gators. It makes no sense. And yeah, I will mention price. Trucking in that many boulders, cranes, etc., for something that is unbelievably rare. Of course cost is considered, it's considered in any decision.

And get out of here with your python comparisson. First off, experts and people who have studied the everglades for 20 plus years have a good idea of if there are breeding populations of anything. Second, pythons were a gigantic worry before they exploded. I remember reading scientific journal articles from 2000 talking about the concerns that a population would establish because they were finding too many of them. When I was in school down there that is all that was a big concern with the everglades. There is a concern that people are dumping them in the everglades and it could become a worry if they start recovering more that are larger, but it is nowhere near the concern they had about pythons.

Look, here is my issue that I'm going to leave this on. Everything you are stating is in your opinion, or you think. The problem is you have no data to back up your claims. Gators aren't attacking dozens of times a day anywhere. They have an importance in the ecosystem despite what you think. And any potential threat from gators is easy to remedy based on things like keeping people away from the water edge. At this point, I'm done even trying to discuss this point anymore.

 

[HopperFan]

It is true.
I didn't say Disney ceased their program in dealing with the gators. They made departmental cuts that effected the overall hours and operations of their wildlife program that then, in turn, effected their program to deal with gators. Just because it is not public knowledge, and you are unaware of it does not make it untrue.

You said they "cut" the program implying it was gone.

That said, no I don't know their current budget and will venture no one on here does. 100% speculation.

 

[whiporee]

Not being in the water is not because of alligators. There are lots of other reasons. And you are creating a place that is much more likely to attract gators. It makes no sense. And yeah, I will mention price. Trucking in that many boulders, cranes, etc., for something that is unbelievably rare. Of course cost is considered, it's considered in any decision.

And get out of here with your python comparisson. First off, experts and people who have studied the everglades for 20 plus years have a good idea of if there are breeding populations of anything. Second, pythons were a gigantic worry before they exploded. I remember reading scientific journal articles from 2000 talking about the concerns that a population would establish because they were finding too many of them. When I was in school down there that is all that was a big concern with the everglades. There is a concern that people are dumping them in the everglades and it could become a worry if they start recovering more that are larger, but it is nowhere near the concern they had about pythons.

Look, here is my issue that I'm going to leave this on. Everything you are stating is in your opinion, or you think. The problem is you have no data to back up your claims. Gators aren't attacking dozens of times a day anywhere. They have an importance in the ecosystem despite what you think. And any potential threat from gators is easy to remedy based on things like keeping people away from the water edge. At this point, I'm done even trying to discuss this point anymore.

I know you're done with this, and so am I. But you've mentioned facts, so I thought I'd present some.

1) Between 1987 and now, Florida's alligator population went from 500,000 to 1.3 million. That's after harvesting was re-allowed. Florida's human population went from 12 million to 19 million. The alligators are increasing at a faster rate than even transplants.

2) There have been four fatal attacks in Florida since 2015. There were 12 fatal attacks in the 2000s, four in the 90s, three in the 80s and three in the 70s. To be accurate the four since 2015 are the first since 2010, so if you want to be fair, you can say that since 2000, there has been an average of one fatal attack a year. Before 2000, there was an average of .333 a year. As the alligator population has increased, so has the number of fatalities. (I do understand the population of the state has also increased, giving them more targets). Now, in almost all cases, the person was doing something invasive, snorkeling, running from cops into retention ponds, dangling feet over a dock. But the people are still dead, and alligators are still the reason they are dead.

3) An average alligator clutch is 38 eggs. Of them, four are expected to survive up to four feet, and those numbers include the Glades, where the babies have a lot more natural predators than the suburbs do. So on average, that's two mature adult offspring for every mature adult, every year. They take 10 years to reach sexual maturity.

4) In 2015, there were nearly 14,000 nuisance alligator calls -- to do the math, that's 38 a day. 7500 of them were removed. So every day, 38 or so alligators have to be dealt with by people who felt threatened/inconvenienced enough to make a call, and 20 of them were big enough to do something about.

Those are all facts. People can make of them what they will, and decide whether they are a problem or not. But you said I don't have facts: Here they are.

As for my boulders, Disney has been known, from time to time, to create fake things. I don't know why boulders are a bigger draw than reeds, but okay. But the boulders were just an idea that I thought would be cool. Others don't. I'm not on the board, so I don't think it matters.

But the bigger issue is this: You seem content to say to people they should not enjoy Florida lakes -- "easy to remedy based on things like keeping people away from the waters edge." To me, that's just wrong. People should be allowed to enjoy their lakes and waterways, and your position seems to suggest that the way to avoid danger from alligators is to stay out of their waters. And I don't want to give them the waters. I don't mind giving them the Glades or the remote swamps and wetlands, but I don't want to give up Lake Virginia in Winter Park or Lake Arnold in Orlando or any of the other suburban lakes anywhere in the state. I grew up swimming in those lakes; I don't like the presumption that the way to be safe from alligators is to avoid anywhere they might be. I don't like having to worry about my dogs running around my lakefront yard (I don't have one right now, but I'm looking). I don't want to have to worry about a 4-footer plunging into my swimming pool and best case having it put right back in the lake. Attacks on people may be rare, but those things aren't. You can say that's the price for living in central Florida -- I just answer, "why?" Why does it have to be? It wasn't always.

And to the crocs. Do you think the first python seen in the Glades was cause for concern, or was it assumed the natural order down there would take care of things? Do you think the first Water Hyacenth was seen as a problem when it made it to the St. Johns? I probably read the same articles as you did about the Niles, and the people I saw quoted sounded concerned. But I only mentioned them because someone else did.

Okay, I've written my thesis. Sorry to take up so much bandwith and pixel space.

 

[midaroco]

You said they "cut" the program implying it was gone.

That said, no I don't know their current budget and will venture no one on here does. 100% speculation.

No, there was no implication made that the program was gone... It's ok that you misunderstood, it happens.

 

[Uncleromulus]

Signs and fences--will still be ignored by the many who think they don't apply to THEM.

How big will a sign need to be to cover each and every possibility?? Probably Interstate Billboard sized.

And even then there will be a bird-brain who doesn't get the message.

 

[HopperFan]

Original Post

Disney SHOULDN'T have cut their gator removal program this year in an effort to save money.

Edited Post (Last edited: Yesterday at 11:44 PM)

Disney SHOULDN'T have made cuts to their gator removal program this year in an effort to save money.

Disney cut their gator removal program? Where did you hear this?

It is true.
I didn't say Disney ceased their program in dealing with the gators. They made departmental cuts that effected the overall hours and operations of their wildlife program that then, in turn, effected their program to deal with gators. Just because it is not public knowledge, and you are unaware of it does not make it untrue.

You said they "cut" the program implying it was gone.

That said, no I don't know their current budget and will venture no one on here does. 100% speculation.

No, there was no implication made that the program was gone... It's ok that you misunderstood, it happens.

I did not misunderstand your original post, it is very clear.

Now that you have edited your post it has a different meaning............

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Signs and fences--will still be ignored by the many who think they don't apply to THEM.

How big will a sign need to be to cover each and every possibility?? Probably Interstate Billboard sized.

And even then there will be a bird-brain who doesn't get the message.

You're right! They should just do absolutely nothing because what's the use of doing anything if you can't guarantee 100% compliance? I mean, take these drunk driving laws. There will always be people who drink and drive so why even have them, amirite? I've also seen people driving through stop signs, like they don't even apply to them! What is POINT, I ask you, of even having a stop sign at all if every single driver who sees it doesn't come to a complete stop? And don't get me started on red lights!

 

[Aurora0427]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ay-oblivious-guests-ride-Splash-Mountain.html

 

[Uncleromulus]

You're right! They should just do absolutely nothing because what's the use of doing anything if you can't guarantee 100% compliance? I mean, take these drunk driving laws. There will always be people who drink and drive so why even have them, amirite? I've also seen people driving through stop signs, like they don't even apply to them! What is POINT, I ask you, of even having a stop sign at all if every single driver who sees it doesn't come to a complete stop? And don't get me started on red lights!

You of seem to have missed my whole point. Here we had at least a No Swimming sign and they let the kid in the water anyway..at or near dark.

I am sure most folks think signs and fences will cure the problem (which hasn't really been a problem since 1971)--but they won't.

And the comparison to traffic laws is a bit of a stretch I think!!

 

[Uncleromulus]

Agree! You can't "ignore" a sign that is not there. This poor child was not swimming.

Well--to me a No Swimming sign means don't get in the water--not a ban on just the "act" of swimming. Heck you could be in water up to your waist and just be walking around--and not technically swimming.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Splashing around in ankle deep water is not swimming. I don't care how many of you try the "Well, to ME it doesn't mean that!" argument. It's not. Not even in Florida…..perhaps everyone has forgotten that little park down the road, Seaworld, where trainers were allowed to be standing in calf deep water with orcas and they were not "swimming with them" by their own rules. Isn't that how Dawn Brancheau was pulled into the water by a non water-work animal that no one ever swam with? Everyone knows what swimming means. It does not mean getting your feet wet, period. If you don't want people touching the water you better darn well be more explicit.

 

[Uncleromulus]

Amazing tho how many folks believe it means don't get in the water!!!

 

[Uncleromulus]

And to add--we used to say at the Poly all the time in the early days. You could get in the water then--they even added a lot of white sand just in the water near the beach. Spent many an hour swimming--oops--wading--oops--standing--oops--floating-- in the water

But at some point they posted 'No Swimming"--meaning to me that they didn't want folks in the water and so we never got in again.

 

[rteetz]

Original Post


Edited Post (Last edited: Yesterday at 11:44 PM)










I did not misunderstand your original post, it is very clear.

Now that you have edited your post it has a different meaning............

I still don't know how the person heard about cuts to the program. I haven't heard anything about Disney making cuts to their alligator removal program.

 

[theSurlyMermaid]

Amazing tho how many folks believe it means don't get in the water!!!

How many people here, you mean. I've been discussing this with people around me everyday and absolutely no one interpreted it the way certain posters here do.

And I'm really not sure that it matters much either. If those parents had known of the danger of a child-grabbing alligator, I doubt they would have been on the sand at the water's edge or anywhere on the beach at all.

 

[MinnieSweetheart]

Amazing tho how many folks believe it means don't get in the water!!!

Because when you grow up near dirty bodies of water, that's exactly what it means. They don't want you swimming b/c there is bacteria or dangerous terrain or in this case possibly dangerous animals.

 

[jodifla]

I know you're done with this, and so am I. But you've mentioned facts, so I thought I'd present some.

1) Between 1987 and now, Florida's alligator population went from 500,000 to 1.3 million. That's after harvesting was re-allowed. Florida's human population went from 12 million to 19 million. The alligators are increasing at a faster rate than even transplants.

2) There have been four fatal attacks in Florida since 2015. There were 12 fatal attacks in the 2000s, four in the 90s, three in the 80s and three in the 70s. To be accurate the four since 2015 are the first since 2010, so if you want to be fair, you can say that since 2000, there has been an average of one fatal attack a year. Before 2000, there was an average of .333 a year. As the alligator population has increased, so has the number of fatalities. (I do understand the population of the state has also increased, giving them more targets). Now, in almost all cases, the person was doing something invasive, snorkeling, running from cops into retention ponds, dangling feet over a dock. But the people are still dead, and alligators are still the reason they are dead.

3) An average alligator clutch is 38 eggs. Of them, four are expected to survive up to four feet, and those numbers include the Glades, where the babies have a lot more natural predators than the suburbs do. So on average, that's two mature adult offspring for every mature adult, every year. They take 10 years to reach sexual maturity.

4) In 2015, there were nearly 14,000 nuisance alligator calls -- to do the math, that's 38 a day. 7500 of them were removed. So every day, 38 or so alligators have to be dealt with by people who felt threatened/inconvenienced enough to make a call, and 20 of them were big enough to do something about.

Those are all facts. People can make of them what they will, and decide whether they are a problem or not. But you said I don't have facts: Here they are.

As for my boulders, Disney has been known, from time to time, to create fake things. I don't know why boulders are a bigger draw than reeds, but okay. But the boulders were just an idea that I thought would be cool. Others don't. I'm not on the board, so I don't think it matters.

But the bigger issue is this: You seem content to say to people they should not enjoy Florida lakes -- "easy to remedy based on things like keeping people away from the waters edge." To me, that's just wrong. People should be allowed to enjoy their lakes and waterways, and your position seems to suggest that the way to avoid danger from alligators is to stay out of their waters. And I don't want to give them the waters. I don't mind giving them the Glades or the remote swamps and wetlands, but I don't want to give up Lake Virginia in Winter Park or Lake Arnold in Orlando or any of the other suburban lakes anywhere in the state. I grew up swimming in those lakes; I don't like the presumption that the way to be safe from alligators is to avoid anywhere they might be. I don't like having to worry about my dogs running around my lakefront yard (I don't have one right now, but I'm looking). I don't want to have to worry about a 4-footer plunging into my swimming pool and best case having it put right back in the lake. Attacks on people may be rare, but those things aren't. You can say that's the price for living in central Florida -- I just answer, "why?" Why does it have to be? It wasn't always.

And to the crocs. Do you think the first python seen in the Glades was cause for concern, or was it assumed the natural order down there would take care of things? Do you think the first Water Hyacenth was seen as a problem when it made it to the St. Johns? I probably read the same articles as you did about the Niles, and the people I saw quoted sounded concerned. But I only mentioned them because someone else did.

Okay, I've written my thesis. Sorry to take up so much bandwith and pixel space.

Gators like to sun themselves. Boulders would likely be a big draw.

At the University of Florida, huge gators sun themselves of the big rocks out in the ponds. There's nothing stopping them from roaming anywhere on campus. Nothing stopping the students for jumping in the pond. Everybody just goes about their business though. It's just another day in Florida.

 

[leahgoogle]

Everybody is different, but to DH and I "no swimming" means not to get into the water. With not knowing why they posted that sign, we assumed that something was wrong with the water that would make us not want to get into it in any way. We are from the Midwest with no alligators and still don't touch the water when a "no swimming" sign is posted.