Disney Vacation Club adjusts 2010 Vacation Points charts

[Belle & Ariel]

I understand that a unit is a group of rooms. But since units appear to often be random groupings of physical rooms, crossing those boundaries from one room size to another would appear to be exceedingly difficult. As you said, some OKW units have Grand Villas and others do not. It seems like it would be impossible to blend (for example) a global increase in Grand Villa point costs across all of the OKW units and still have those deeded ownership percentages be equal.

I'm not saying you're wrong--I'm just trying to make sense of this aspect of it. According to the deed the number of points I own is almost an incidental figure. It's a unit of measure to simplify our lives.

What I really (legally) own is .3284% of a physical building. And if the points are shuffled across multiple room sizes, my 150 points would almost certainly no longer equate to the .3284%. Ignoring the entire issue of how far points go, changing the ownership percentage seems like the equivalent of selling someone 5 acres of land and later saying "oh, well you only have 4 1/2 acres now." I'm not grasping how that is possible.

If I owned a fixed percentage of "Saratoga Springs Resort", then it would make more sense that the points could be shuffled however they wish. But the existence of the legal units makes this less clear.

Think of your 150 points in relation to the 45,676,004 total points (150/.002384). That is what portion you own now and you will still own in 2010, 2020, 2030, etc. You still own 150 out of the same total. Your piece of the pie has not changed.

 

[MiaSRN62]

I understand the Sun-Thurs people being upset. And a 30 point increase does seem high to me. But another way to look at it is those who stay more weekend days who have been gouged for points for years in the past are finally getting a break with a more even allocation of points during the week. It's still higher on the weekends but not double, which was just nuts IMHO.

True Inkman...you could look at it this way. So now we're just messin' with the Sun-Thurs folks. That makes it so much better I suppose ?

I just think the allocation is a bit drastic in it's change. Nothing subtle about it for alot of us. I'm being charged a whole 30 points more for our traditional OKW stays. So my only option is to reduce our stay by one night every year. That's significant to us as I have mentioned.

And besides, I would think that the "weekend stay" Members who are so thrilled with this would have purchased their contracts having planned ahead that they were going to use alot of weekend points ? I know we purchased feeling Sun-Thurs was the way to go for us. This is due, on part, to an offsite timeshare we own that MUST be used weekend to weekend. So we planned on weeknight stays at DVC so we could tack on and lengthen our stays. It's not that we haven't ever use weekend points over the past 8 years, just wasn't the way we generally planned our point purchase.

And I'm still miffed Disney didn't let on about this allocation before recent AKV/BLT purchases. We purchased our add-on Sept 20. I'd bet money alot of us would have rethought our point purchase. I know we would have purchased more AKV points with that add-on. Now the Jan 15th date has passed, we would have to pay the higher point cost. Doesn't leave us feeling very magical about the whole thing. And this is all for the enhancement of the Member's experience. How convenient for Disney with their planning ..........very clever disney....if they wanted to enact this allocation in 2010, we should have already been notified months ago about it.

To be honest, those numbers surprise me a bit. I figured reactions would be about 99% against this move--at least in terms of the people who were willing to speak up and voice their opinions. Instead there are quite a few people saying "it's about time!"

Me too tkraz....a poll might be interesting...........

 

[tjkraz]

Sure. Ill agree. I even thought weekends were too high. But the "change" that really bothers me is that I own at AKV and Savanna view rooms had an increase across the board where the "balance" was bringing down the points in value studios. No one asked for that change.

I think you need to check again. According to the +/- chart that someone put together for AKV, there were no "across the board" increases for AKV Savanna View at the expense of the Value rooms.

The weekly numbers (which is the relevant piece) shows only slight variations in each season. In some cases the weekly costs for some seasons went up by a point or two, while Premier Season went down by several points for the week.

I don't see any evidence that Savanna got a universal increase with another room class being lowered. Weekdays went up. Weekends went down. And the weekly prices stayed as close as possible (given the fact that each week has 5 weekdays and 2 weekends.)

 

[Inkmahm]

I think you need to check again. According to the +/- chart that someone put together for AKV, there were no "across the board" increases for AKV Savanna View at the expense of the Value rooms.

The weekly numbers (which is the relevant piece) shows only slight variations in each season. In some cases the weekly costs for some seasons went up by a point or two, while Premier Season went down by several points for the week.

I don't see any evidence that Savanna got a universal increase with another room class being lowered. Weekdays went up. Weekends went down. And the weekly prices stayed as close as possible (given the fact that each week has 5 weekdays and 2 weekends.)

I know that my standard spring vacation to a 1 bedroom savanna view villa decreased from 208 to 202 points. That's for a W thru Su stay. No increase there...

 

[Inkmahm]

True Inkman...you could look at it this way. So now we're just messin' with the Sun-Thurs folks. That makes it so much better I suppose ?

Yes, actually. Why should Sun-thurs be so much cheaper than Wed-Sun? What makes Sun- Thurs sacred?

 

[jakenjess]

We're Sun-Thurs. people also (with only 160 points). I just calculated our April 09 stay to April 2010 and the increase is 25 points! I haven't had time to study the charts carefully, but it also seems those of us going during school vacation times are getting hit a little harder also. With the kids getting older, it's more difficult to take them out of school. I'm crossing my fingers that the final charts will have some adjustments; otherwise we'll really have to rethink our vacation plans in the future.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Most of our stays evolve around a weekend, usually Thursday to Monday. It's what we can do as a couple. I have mentioned to MS many times since we joined in '03 that I thought the weekend points are too high.

When we've traveled with family, we are more likely to do the Sunday to Friday stays, but we also have rented 2 bedrooms on weekends to maximize the airfare.

Who knows, maybe all of this is moot...the ponts may not change, all of the outrage could be over nothing. I do not like the way this is being handled. I have the marathon weekend (2 bedroom + at least one studio) from Wednesday night to Sunday morning that I'll be booking soon.

In polls here, there were people who never used points on weekend, there were those who say they averaged the week. There are all sorts of members, and I say again that I thought the weekend points that we've been paying have been too high.

Bobbi

 

[jarestel]

I believe DVC would open itself up to possible litigation if these new charts were to take affect.

Historically, each time an adjustment is made to the way DVC operates, posts of litigation & class action suits make their way into the discussion. I can't recall a single case where any policy change or "enhancement" was ever overturned thru legal action. There have been instances of policy reversals due to member feedback (glassware fiasco, for one).

Bottom line - I wouldn't count on the legal system to save us from the new point charts.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Buying Dean's "10% cushion" would still do no good at Vero

Same with me KLR-wlv. I'd still be short 15 points instead of 30 points every year. We would still not be able to do our 5 night stay at OKW in Magic season.

 

[tjkraz]

Think of your 150 points in relation to the 45,676,004 total points (150/.002384). That is what portion you own now and you will still own in 2010, 2020, 2030, etc. You still own 150 out of the same total. Your piece of the pie has not changed.

I understand that. I'm just trying to make sense of this from a legal standpoint and DVC points are not a legal unit of measure. My ownership percentage in a physical structure IS the legal unit of measure.

Let me take a step back and ask a more basic question. Are there any specific resorts and room sizes that appear to have had an across-the-board increase or decrease at the expense of another room size?

Early on in this thread someone suggested that the AKV Concierge had been raised for every night. Another poster suggested AKV Savanna view all went up. But according to the +/-chart someone posted, the weekly values for every room category and size at AKV only have minor fluctuations (as expected.)

So for those of you who have studied portions of the new charts: Are there specific room sizes that appear to have had a net annual increase? If not, this is probably a moot point.

 

[jekjones1558]

But the "change" that really bothers me is that I own at AKV and Savanna view rooms had an increase across the board where the "balance" was bringing down the points in value studios. No one asked for that change.

And I am pretty sure that NO ONE asked for weekday rates to go up either. But the point is that Disney must have seen less of an interest in the value studios than they anticipated when the points structure at AKV was put in place. Disney is muddying the waters of member understanding by inferring that members have asked for the specific changes in the proposed points charts. It is members' booking patterns that have spoken and required the changes in order to keep room occupancy as close to 100% as possible. The popularity or lack thereof of these changes is really not important. Disney must make point usage match room availability or the whole system falls apart.
The short notice of the changes is, IMHO, objectionable. Certainly these booking patterns have not just suddenly appeared. Forewarning members should have happened and didn't. Very unacceptable treatment. And BLT owners really have a right to scream, no doubt about it. I hope that Disney will make some accommodations to members in order to make up for these issues.

 

[Cindaddy]

I think you need to check again. According to the +/- chart that someone put together for AKV, there were no "across the board" increases for AKV Savanna View at the expense of the Value rooms.

The weekly numbers (which is the relevant piece) shows only slight variations in each season. In some cases the weekly costs for some seasons went up by a point or two, while Premier Season went down by several points for the week.

I don't see any evidence that Savanna got a universal increase with another room class being lowered. Weekdays went up. Weekends went down. And the weekly prices stayed as close as possible (given the fact that each week has 5 weekdays and 2 weekends.)

His statement is correct, if you look at less than a week or longer than a week (but less than two weeks). If you only consider a one week time period relevant, than your point is valid.

 

[Kmango]

Sure. Ill agree. I even thought weekends were too high. But the "change" that really bothers me is that I own at AKV and Savanna view rooms had an increase across the board where the "balance" was bringing down the points in value studios. No one asked for that change.

I've heard a few OPs comment that they shouldn't have lowered the Values because no one really wants to stay in them, and raised the Savannahs, where everyone DOES want to stay. However, that's exactly why DVC SHOULD have done it. The basic principle of supply and demand is that if you have way more demand than supply, you should raise your prices, and vice versa. In this case, apparently people aren't willing to pay the current number of points for the less-desirable Value rooms, at least not in sufficient numbers to maintain the necessary occupancy rates. Thus, DVC must be hoping that lowering the points will entice people to stay there. Conversely, concierge is

Also, a lot of people are insinuating that DVC's going to lose money by doing this because their family will be staying one less day and not spending money at WDW. And, in individual cases, this may be true. On the whole however, by raising the occupancy rates, especially on weekends, they're going to make more, because SOMEBODY's going to be in those rooms spending money.

I understand this sucks a lot for a lot of people, and the rollout should have been handled a lot differently, but it seems necessary, if not way overdue.

 

[Tinkmom]

In the long run, I think this is a good idea, and what some people seem to miss is that it actually provides more flexibility to trips.

Instead of the high weekend points more or less forcing people to either stick to Sunday-Thursday night trips or having to move because they can't afford Saturday and Sunday, now it makes the days more balanced. I don't have to look for airfare arriving Sunday and leaving Friday; arriving on Saturday or departing on Sunday is now a realistic option and opens me up to some better rates on airfare.

Once the dust settles, I think that most will find it is a better system.

 

[tjkraz]

Disney's responsibility is not to make things better for any individual DVC member but to try to balance demand for rooms. Currently that is not happening. The changes may not entice all current Sun.-Fri. vacationers to occasionally go on a weekend, but it will get some to do so.

It's more about the relationship between points used (or intended to be used) and the charts than it is about vacation days for individual members.

Let's say that members (collectively) wish to use 10,000,000 points for weekday stays. However the current point charts only have 8,000,000 points represented by all of the weekday DVC rooms. That appears to be on-line with what we have now and it's a big problem. You can't fit 10 million points into 8 million points' worth of rooms.

So what DVC is doing is making each weekday night more expensive so that there are at least 10mil points worth of vacancies for the 10mil points people want to use on weekdays.

That's an overly simplistic analogy but it's pretty much what is happening.

 

[MiaSRN62]

Yes, actually. Why should Sun-thurs be so much cheaper than Wed-Sun? What makes Sun- Thurs sacred?
__________________

Because it's such an extreme change....and when I sat down with my guide years ago, our trips were planned this way according to the point charts. We planned it out. My husband and I took 3 days to think it out before signing on the dotted line. It's like having the rug pulled from under you with how drastic the change is (30 points is no joke to come up short every year), and the timing.........ALOT of us would have planned very differently with recent add-ons. The Magic season points already were high coming just under Premiere season.

My guide, back in Aug of 2000, never let on there would be a change of this magnitude or we would have planned differently. She did say something like , "they could switch the points around a little here and there" and made it out like it was not a big deal. I could see my stays coming up 4, 5, 6 points short....hell....even 10......but I cannot borrow 30 points every single year. So our vacations with DVC, as they have been planned out in conjunction with our knowledgable guide 8 years ago, are now changed forever. Unless of course Disney one day changes it back. Sorry you cannot manage to see how some of us are impacted by this in bigger ways than others.

 

[bobbiwoz]

Our '09 Concierge AKV stay from March 26 to 29, a Thursday to Sunday morning is 87 points, in 2010, a Thursday to Sunday morning AKV concerige stay would be 76 points.

I'm staying AKV, BWV from March 19, so my trip includes 3 weekend nights. Overall, THAT stay...increases by 8 points because 4 of those nights are in a BWV standard view 2 bedroom with DGFs. The remaining night is AKV savannah view studio which decreases from 30 to 25, it's a Saturday night.

Bobbi

 

[SuzanneSLO]

. . .The short notice of the changes is, IMHO, objectionable. Certainly these booking patterns have not just suddenly appeared. Forewarning members should have happened and didn't. Very unacceptable treatment. . .

I agree whoelheartedly withthis point. It shoudl be the 2011 point chart that has these changes, so that members can make 2010 booking with full knoweldge of the need to bank or borrow for 2011.

In general, though, this should be a big wake-up call for DVC members. The DVC poitns system is very flexible and many bought for that very reason. But that flexibility goes both ways. No one bought with the right to vacation in a specific size unit during a specific time. That you have been able to in the past is great, but every DVC member should now be aware that this will not always be the case. -- Suzanne

 

[MiaSRN62]

No one bought with the right to vacation in a specific size unit during a specific time.

Sorry Suzanne...but this is how the whole sales pitch with our guide went down at the time, back in 2000. We sat down at a table and went over points. She asked when we planned on vacationing and in what type of accomodations. Then she guided us to the amount of points we should purchase to fit our vacationing needs. This is why I'm suprised Members who primarily stay over weekends didn't plan the same. I would think they did and purchased the amount of points they would need to stay mostly weekends ? If I call for a reservation too late and there's no availability....then yes, I don't get the vacation scenario I want. But to not get my 5 nights in a 2 bedroom simply because now DVC wants to charge me an extra 30 points is a whole other scenario.

So I disagree with your above statement. We pay alot of money for our points and the MF's every year. To induct a change of this magnitude can significantly impact some of us in a negative way. I cannot find any way to get a 2 bedroom in Magic season for 5 nights now with 150 points. I don't even have the option to go with a resort that has lower point cost, because I'm already there with OKW. I've got nowhere to go but to shorten our vacations yet pay the same points.

 

[Cindaddy]

I agree whoelheartedly withthis point. It shoudl be the 2011 point chart that has these changes, so that members can make 2010 booking with full knoweldge of the need to bank or borrow for 2011.

In general, though, this should be a big wake-up call for DVC members. The DVC poitns system is very flexible and many bought for that very reason. But that flexibility goes both ways. No one bought with the right to vacation in a specific size unit during a specific time. That you have been able to in the past is great, but every DVC member should now be aware that this will not always be the case. -- Suzanne

That's technically true from a contract perspective. As Maria pointed out, that's exactly how the Guides are determining points during the sale. This needs to be changed.