disney trying to get back the genZ boys

[Smugpugmug]

And the lyrics are terrible, when King Magnifico and Asha sing together for the first time in the room with the wishes that song was originally meant to be a love song and Disney had the writers change it to better fit the story (it didn't work). I could go on but basically this movie is a hot mess, it touched on some really interesting ethical questions but in the most shallow way possible.

Hiring people who mainly write pop songs to do the score was such a bad decision and why the music sucks so much.

Sorry couldn't help myself when I said I wouldn't get into it

 

[Madteaparty001]

How on Earth is Asha the villain? The system as established was not in the best interest of the people - whether they knowingly agreed to it or not (which I don't think they really understood the whole picture). The slightest challenge to Magnifico's status quo sent him off the rails. I'm not necessarily trying to defend the movie here and you are free to not like it, but I think that's a pretty bad read that Magnifico's system was just fine until it got jacked up by some kid.

I will defend the look, which I think is the best part of the movie. It harkens back to 2-D animation, which iw shy it has a sort of flat look. That was welcome to me! The hazy, dreamy color pallette also suits it. Look, I'm not saying it's the best movie or anything - It's pretty average in the Disney movie canon, but I am still surprised by how harsh people are toward it. Can't anything just be "okay" anymore?

Someone wrote up a great summary as to why Asha is the villain in a reddit thread that discusses film theories, I'll quote it here (edited for clarity):

"If you ask most people why King Magnifico is a villain it's because of three reasons

1. He doesn't grant every wish
2. People forget their wish when they give him it
3. He uses people's wishes to empower himself

With the Trailers saying that the first one alone is what makes him a villain, but in the opening song Welcome To Rosas, Asha confirms that the second one is public knowledge with the line "you won't even miss (your wish)", and also confirms that he typically grants 1 wish per month, with Magnifico later stating that his granting of 14 the year prior was a high amount, meaning literally anyone could just do some basic math to figure out the first, and Asha being shocked by it is more of a case of her being an idiot who never thought too hard about it, and as for the third, if it's one of the ones he was never going to grant anyways, who cares?

And while some do interpret his line of only granting those he deems best for Rosas as being those that benefit him, Welcome To Rosas list some of the wishes he's granted, including giving a guy really long hair, making another a good dancer and even helping someone visit outer space, none of which provide any benefit to him, him making someone a knight in the trailers does, but that is only one out of four, but Asha and the Star do cause some chaos throughout Rosas in the Trailer, and if we interpret those as wishes being granted, it seems that what Magnifico is doing is more along the line of risk assessment, as a guy with long hair is not gonna cause trouble like a giant chicken would.

It's also worth pointing out that unlike other wish granting Disney villains like Dr. Falicer, Ursula & Jafar in the Aladdin Sequel, if Magnifico grants your wish, there's no catch, no downsides or negative consequences, you get exactly what you want in the way you wanted it, and if he doesn't grant your wish, there's no real negative effects, you still get to live a long fulfilling life

This Is The Thanks I Get? gives us more info on Magnifico, clearly showing that's he's a raging narcissist, but while that is a flaw, it doesn't automatically mean "Evil", especially when he goes into detail about how he gets the praise he craves, he literally built Rosas from the ground up, has spent his days constantly helping others (even if he does so by making use of his subjects now and then) and literally granting wishes, even if it's not every wish. The people are happy and healthy, and the kingdom is safe, prosperous and even tax-free (depending how you interpret the "not charging rent" line). Not having a wish granted seems like a very small price to pay, especially when most of them seem to be frivolous.

But Asha has her own flaw: Entitlement

And the way she goes about satisfying it definitely makes her a villain, for context, in Welcome to Rosas, she makes it clear that she wants both her and her grandpa's wishes granted soon, she also makes it clear that she takes great pride in the idea that everyone's wishes gets granted in Rosas, the song also confirms that the youngest you get to turn in your wish is 18, and Asha is currently 17, meaning that when Magnifico reveals his wish granting process to her, she literally just found out there's very little chance of her wish being granted before she even makes it, and as the king's apprentice she could learn how to grant wishes herself, but that would likely take years, and she wants her and her grandfathers wishes granted now, and she wants Rosas to be the way she envisions it, and to do that she:

1. Breaks the King's laws regarding Magic
2. Causes chaos throughout the kingdom with it
3. Starts inciting dissent amongst the populace
4. and Actively rebels against the King with intent to Overthrow

Even if you want to argue that the first 2 are accidental because she didn't know how Star would respond, the last 2 are deliberate choices on her part, with the song This Wish having complained that no one cares to listen to her, expressing dissatisfaction with her lot in life, and wishing for more... all over some ungranted wishes."

Someone pointed out in the thread that the group song 'Now We Know' makes for a better villain song then 'This is the Thanks I Get' and I agree. I think another big point against the King being the villain is when you compare him to classics like Scar, Ursula, Jafar, etc. who have a long history of being bad and doing bad either openly or in the shadows, the king just doesn't, he only turns truly villainous when over taken by dark magic.

I pointed out several movies that were just okay: Luca, Soul, Onward, and Turning Red. My DH will defend Onward with all he's got because of the Guinevere storyline, it reminds him of the van he had as a teenager and he thought the send off was spectacular. I think most people aren't saying these movies shouldn't have been made, just that they failed to reach the heights that Disney had set the bar for in their golden era which I talked about in my last post. When you have intended straight to streaming movies such as the Zombies franchise outdoing box office releases in both song quality and popularity it makes people feel like something's off.

 

[BrianL]

All of that presupposes that everything was just fine with the status quo, but the whole point of the story is that people are better off keeping their wishes so they can work to make them come true on their own. So, it was right to challenge that, even if Asha may have at first jsut wanted her wish granted. The universe sent Star to help correct things, so it is the gods or what have you who took action to correct things. It's pretty straightforward.

 

[imbelle]

Very interesting viewpoints. I tend to judge films on how I connect to them emotionally. I tend to be kind of ho hum when it seems like the animators are working through their personal therapy issues (the "Inside Out" movies were excruciating).

I was really looking forward to "Wish" and wanted to love it. While visually beautiful, it just didn't inspire the feels. I did love the song "At All Costs" but thought it was a weird fit (which makes sense if it was originally supposed to be a love duet).

On the other hand, I had low expectations of "Elemental" but when Wade evaporated, both my spouse and I had tears rolling down our faces.

 

[Madteaparty001]

All of that presupposes that everything was just fine with the status quo, but the whole point of the story is that people are better off keeping their wishes so they can work to make them come true on their own. So, it was right to challenge that, even if Asha may have at first jsut wanted her wish granted. The universe sent Star to help correct things, so it is the gods or what have you who took action to correct things. It's pretty straightforward.

I understood all of this when watching the movie, my point is that it was done in the most shallow and clumsy way possible. They could have made the stars dying out or growing weaker because people stopped wishing on them leading to a more compelling reason as to why things had to change, they could have had a backstory where Star had sensed evil in Magnifico early on to play off the poignant line directed at Star by Magfnico 'Where were you when I needed you?'. Hell, DD watched a ton of my Little Pony when she was little and they did a long episode about ponies giving up their cutie marks (what makes them unique) to fit in and they turned dull, grey, and almost zombie like. They handled basically the same storyline way better at a fraction of the cost and with better story telling.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to like Wish, I'm not going to yuck your yum, but I don't think it's right to say that fast food is gourmet dining so to speak. Wish has a lot of problems and the audience clearly agreed. I'll say this, it's better than Cars 2 but that's a low bar.

Very interesting viewpoints. I tend to judge films on how I connect to them emotionally. I tend to be kind of ho hum when it seems like the animators are working through their personal therapy issues (the "Inside Out" movies were excruciating).

I was really looking forward to "Wish" and wanted to love it. While visually beautiful, it just didn't inspire the feels. I did love the song "At All Costs" but thought it was a weird fit (which makes sense if it was originally supposed to be a love duet).

On the other hand, I had low expectations of "Elemental" but when Wade evaporated, both my spouse and I had tears rolling down our faces.

DH and I loved Elemental, we thought it was great both visually and story wise, it's a shame Disney promoted it so poorly. If word of mouth hadn't spread about how good it was it would have flopped like Elio. It was actually people singing it's praises here on the Dis that made us go see it in theaters.

 

[BrianL]

I understood all of this when watching the movie, my point is that it was done in the most shallow and clumsy way possible. They could have made the stars dying out or growing weaker because people stopped wishing on them leading to a more compelling reason as to why things had to change, they could have had a backstory where Star had sensed evil in Magnifico early on to play off the poignant line directed at Star by Magfnico 'Where were you when I needed you?'. Hell, DD watched a ton of my Little Pony when she was little and they did a long episode about ponies giving up their cutie marks (what makes them unique) to fit in and they turned dull, grey, and almost zombie like. They handled basically the same storyline way better at a fraction of the cost and with better story telling.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to like Wish, I'm not going to yuck your yum, but I don't think it's right to say that fast food is gourmet dining so to speak. Wish has a lot of problems and the audience clearly agreed. I'll say this, it's better than Cars 2 but that's a low bar.

DH and I loved Elemental, we thought it was great both visually and story wise, it's a shame Disney promoted it so poorly. If word of mouth hadn't spread about how good it was it would have flopped like Elio. It was actually people singing it's praises here on the Dis that made us go see it in theaters.

Okay, but I didn't say that Wish was gourmet - I said it was fine and that I am surprised at the extreme hate it gets. I also don't think it was that great, just decent enough. The music definitely disappoints, but the visuals are indeed top-notch. It's like the fast-food in a commercial that had a great food stylist. It could have been a bit better though, sure. I don't think the "Asha is the villain" take is valid though. People love to do subversive tear-downs on movies with a hot-take like that, but I think it's silly.

 

[Madteaparty001]

Okay, but I didn't say that Wish was gourmet - I said it was fine and that I am surprised at the extreme hate it gets. I also don't think it was that great, just decent enough. The music definitely disappoints, but the visuals are indeed top-notch. It's like the fast-food in a commercial that had a great food stylist. It could have been a bit better though, sure. I don't think the "Asha is the villain" take is valid though. People love to do subversive tear-downs on movies with a hot-take like that, but I think it's silly.

We'll just have to agree to disagree then because I do genuinely think it qualifies as bad. The price that Magnifico asked for peace and prosperity was people's wishes and the right to decide whether or not they got granted. Asha bucking that because her grandfather's wish was never going to get granted does make her motivation selfish even if it is justified later, her grandfather even tries to stop her in the beginning. But I digress, Disney is having a hard time connecting with the masses right now and I'm very interested to see how the sequels of their major franchises fair.

 

[BrianL]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then because I do genuinely think it qualifies as bad. The price that Magnifico asked for peace and prosperity was people's wishes and the right to decide whether or not they got granted. Asha bucking that because her grandfather's wish was never going to get granted does make her motivation selfish even if it is justified later, her grandfather even tries to stop her in the beginning. But I digress, Disney is having a hard time connecting with the masses right now and I'm very interested to see how the sequels of their major franchises fair.

The price was too high. Even if the people knowingly agreed to it, it was an existence without fulfillment. Star was sent to make that right. Asha may have been selfish at first, but she learned and grew, which you typically want to happen to a protagonist in any story.

I just wish people would stop expecting every movie to be the greatest thing ever or else it's totally worthless garbage. Everything is so extreme. Can't we just enjoy a movie despite it's flaws and not exaggerate every little thing? Sometimes stuff is just okay. To continue your analogy, it might just be a Big Mac, but sometimes I just want to eat a Big Mac, you know?

 

[Madteaparty001]

I just wish people would stop expecting every movie to be the greatest thing ever or else it's totally worthless garbage. Everything is so extreme. Can't we just enjoy a movie despite it's flaws and not exaggerate every little thing? Sometimes stuff is just okay. To continue your analogy, it might just be a Big Mac, but sometimes I just want to eat a Big Mac, you know?

Sure I get that, the problem was that Wish was marketed to hell and back as this great pinnacle of animation that was supposed to encompass the greatness of Disney's golden era and it failed at the big time. I think that's why people give it such an extra hard time as the distance between expectation and reality was too great.

 

[Smugpugmug]

Sure I get that, the problem was that Wish was marketed to hell and back as this great pinnacle of animation that was supposed to encompass the greatness of Disney's golden era and it failed at the big time. I think that's why people give it such an extra hard time as the distance between expectation and reality was too great.

This is my main issue with the movie. I remember when I went to see it in theaters, the internet was making fun of how bad the songs were (mainly Magnifico's) and I ignored it. I wanted to see the film for myself and form my own opinion. When I walked out of the theater, I was just....annoyed. I was like, wow the internet was right and this movie was trash. Doesn't help that the art book shows actually cool concept art and plot ideas that would've made this movie WAY better.

But I digress, Disney is having a hard time connecting with the masses right now

I mentioned this movie pages ago but Disney somehow needs their own Kpop Demon Hunters. That was able to resonate with younger audiences AND the music is actually really good.

 

[Madteaparty001]

I mentioned this movie pages ago but Disney somehow needs their own Kpop Demon Hunters. That was able to resonate with younger audiences AND the music is actually really good.

I've heard good things and the limited release sing along showing in theatres sold out. I don't have Netflix right now so I haven't seen it but it's on my list of things to watch when I do. I also really want to see Ne Zha 1 and 2 when I have time, I'm surprised at how poorly the English Dub release of 2 has been fairing in the US but I suppose I can't be that surprised considering no one on this side of the world has really seen the first one and the second wasn't well marketed here.

 

[BrianL]

Sure I get that, the problem was that Wish was marketed to hell and back as this great pinnacle of animation that was supposed to encompass the greatness of Disney's golden era and it failed at the big time. I think that's why people give it such an extra hard time as the distance between expectation and reality was too great.

Okay, but doesn't every movie get marketed as the greatest thing ever? That's advertising. I can't recall a movie ever running a commercial saying, "Come see the movie that critics are calling 'just okay' and 'worth matinee prices.' It has a solid 70% on Rotten Tomatoes - that's still conisdered 'Fresh' remember." That'd be pretty werid.

 

[Smugpugmug]

I've heard good things and the limited release sing along showing in theatres sold out. I don't have Netflix right now so I haven't seen it but it's on my list of things to watch when I do. I also really want to see Ne Zha 1 and 2 when I have time, I'm surprised at how poorly the English Dub release of 2 has been fairing in the US but I suppose I can't be that surprised considering no one on this side of the world has really seen the first one and the second wasn't well marketed here.

I still find it baffling that the sing along wasn't available in ANY AMC theater. That definitely contributed to it selling out super fast.

The first Ne Zha movie is available to watch for free on Youtube right now but Ne Zha 2 is awesome. The entire movie is a spectacle in a good way. Tbh I didn't even know the English dub was out yet but also I'm someone that will ALWAYS watch the subbed version of a movie that is not in English. I remember having to drive 30+ minutes from where I live to see Boy and the Heron in Japanese with English subs as my local theaters only had the dub.

 

[Madteaparty001]

Okay, but doesn't every movie get marketed as the greatest thing ever? That's advertising. I can't recall a movie ever running a commercial saying, "Come see the movie that critics are calling 'just okay' and 'worth matinee prices.' It has a solid 70% on Rotten Tomatoes - that's still conisdered 'Fresh' remember." That'd be pretty werid.

I don't remember Luca, Soul, Turning Red, or Onward being marketed in the same way Wish was and that's because Wish was made specifically to celebrate Disney's 100th anniversary. Honestly the last original movies I can remember getting similar hype was Tangled, Princess and the Frog, and Frozen. 2 out of 3 were box office smash hits, Princess and the Frog didn't do as well in theatres but it is generally loved. I'm not counting sequels in this because Disney tends to roll out the red carpet in marketing for proven hits (I consider live action remakes as sequels).

 

[BrianL]

View attachment 1002491
I don't remember Luca, Soul, Turning Red, or Onward being marketed in the same way Wish was and that's because Wish was made specifically to celebrate Disney's 100th anniversary. Honestly the last original movies I can remember getting similar hype was Tangled, Princess and the Frog, and Frozen. 2 out of 3 were box office smash hits, Princess and the Frog didn't do as well in theatres but it is generally loved. I'm not counting sequels in this because Disney tends to roll out the red carpet in marketing for proven hits (I consider live action remakes as sequels).

Luca, Soul, & Turning Red went straight to Disney+ and barely got ANY marketing. My point is that every commercial for every movie ever made tries to make it look good. That's the point. If you see a movie and it's bad, were you "lied" to? Well, kind of, because all advertising is inherently deceptive. I mean, that bathroom cleaner that I bought worked okay I guess, but in the commercial, it makes everything spotless in seconds! My point is, they don't make commercials for movies that try to make it look mediocre or even bad - they are always going to try to make it look as good as they can. Why would you hold a movieto some kind of standard based on that. If the commercial didn't make it look good, why would you even see it?

 

[Madteaparty001]

Luca, Soul, & Turning Red went straight to Disney+ and barely got ANY marketing. My point is that every commercial for every movie ever made tries to make it look good. That's the point. If you see a movie and it's bad, were you "lied" to? Well, kind of, because all advertising is inherently deceptive. I mean, that bathroom cleaner that I bought worked okay I guess, but in the commercial, it makes everything spotless in seconds! My point is, they don't make commercials for movies that try to make it look mediocre or even bad - they are always going to try to make it look as good as they can. Why would you hold a movieto some kind of standard based on that. If the commercial didn't make it look good, why would you even see it?

I don't know what to tell you, the masses disagree with your points, both in reviews and at the box office. Many commercial items have money back guarantees if the customer is unsatisfied, you can't return movie tickets and the time spent watching them.

 

[BrianL]

I don't know what to tell you, the masses disagree with your points, both in reviews and at the box office. Many commercial items have money back guarantees if the customer is unsatisfied, you can't return movie tickets and the time spent watching them.

Yeah, I get it, the movie was not that popular and didn't do well, but to say that you didn't like it because the trailers and marketing made it look better than it was is so strange to me. Commercials for everything always make the product look better than it is. That's a weird place to put the blame. Like if you had gone in with low expectations you would have been happier, but it's Disney's fault for making you have higher expectations - at least, that's what I got from your statement.

Like, I'm making sense here, right? This has been a lot of back and forth over a movie that I thought was fairly okay with some good points. Even that's not enough though I guess.

 

[Madteaparty001]

Yeah, I get it, the movie was not that popular and didn't do well, but to say that you didn't like it because the trailers and marketing made it look better than it was is so strange to me. Commercials for everything always make the product look better than it is. That's a weird place to put the blame. Like if you had gone in with low expectations you would have been happier, but it's Disney's fault for making you have higher expectations - at least, that's what I got from your statement.

Like, I'm making sense here, right? This has been a lot of back and forth over a movie that I thought was fairly okay with some good points. Even that's not enough though I guess.

Again, you are allowed to like the movie, you liking the movie does not mean it equals a good movie or even a good enough movie at least in the way audiences and critics rate movies. There are plenty of movies, books, games, etc. that I have liked that are arguably not good or even bad and I don't argue with others that they are good, just that they are good to me.

The opposite is also true, I can objectively agree that a hot dog, hamburger, sandwich, etc. are better with condiments, they add acidity and depth to the flavors as well as cutting down on the heaviness from the fat in meat and cheeses but I find them disgusting and will never eat them. Does that mean condiments are terrible because I find them disagreeable to my palate? No, and society would tell me I'm in the wrong and that's fine. Going along with the food analogy, if a fine dining restaurant opened and was advertised as a gastrological phenomenon and not to be missed but you were served burgers and fries the place would be review bombed to oblivion.

How you sell your product matters, Disney is not singled out in this. Take Epic Universe's reviews for example, they're not great, and that's because many of their attractions are outdoors or have outdoors components and it's only been opened for a summer in Florida where weather takes them down frequently. Universal made that choice when building that park and now they're having to deal with guests who are upset at paying full ticket prices for a park that seems to be always half functioning. Heck, you want to see a place that takes marketing seriously? Look no further than Japan, they have some of the strictest truth in advertising laws in the world.

 

[BrianL]

Again, you are allowed to like the movie, you liking the movie does not mean it equals a good movie or even a good enough movie at least in the way audiences and critics rate movies. There are plenty of movies, books, games, etc. that I have liked that are arguably not good or even bad and I don't argue with others that they are good, just that they are good to me.

The opposite is also true, I can objectively agree that a hot dog, hamburger, sandwich, etc. are better with condiments, they add acidity and depth to the flavors as well as cutting down on the heaviness from the fat in meat and cheeses but I find them disgusting and will never eat them. Does that mean condiments are terrible because I find them disagreeable to my palate? No, and society would tell me I'm in the wrong and that's fine. Going along with the food analogy, if a fine dining restaurant opened and was advertised as a gastrological phenomenon and not to be missed but you were served burgers and fries the place would be review bombed to oblivion.

How you sell your product matters, Disney is not singled out in this. Take Epic Universe's reviews for example, they're not great, and that's because many of their attractions are outdoors or have outdoors components and it's only been opened for a summer in Florida where weather takes them down frequently. Universal made that choice when building that park and now they're having to deal with guests who are upset at paying full ticket prices for a park that seems to be always half functioning. Heck, you want to see a place that takes marketing seriously? Look no further than Japan, they have some of the strictest truth in advertising laws in the world.

And, hey, you're allowed to dislike it too, but the advertising thing - I just don't get it. They advertised a movie - it's the same as any other movie. It cost the same for tickets as it did for any other movie. Sure, if I went to a place advertising fine dining and got fast food, I might be miffed if they are charging fine dining prices, but if I spend 12 bucks, then, okay, it's all good. Again, advertising is alwyas going to try to make the product look as good as it can. It's totally fine if you didn't like the movie, but don't pretend like you would have liked it more if the marketing had been more honest about the fact that wasn't that good. That's just silliness!

 

[Madteaparty001]

And, hey, you're allowed to dislike it too, but the advertising thing - I just don't get it. They advertised a movie - it's the same as any other movie. It cost the same for tickets as it did for any other movie. Sure, if I went to a place advertising fine dining and got fast food, I might be miffed if they are charging fine dining prices, but if I spend 12 bucks, then, okay, it's all good. Again, advertising is alwyas going to try to make the product look as good as it can. It's totally fine if you didn't like the movie, but don't pretend like you would have liked it more if the marketing had been more honest about the fact that wasn't that good. That's just silliness!

I guess the best Disney way I can explain it to you is the expectations people have going to Disney World or Disneyland during their big anniversaries vs. other years. The marketing and the hype is different, Disney World's 50th was a let down compared to what they advertised, the only reason it got a pass was because of Covid but people are still upset about all the things that didn't come into being that was shown. Wish was their 100th anniversary movie, what was supposed to be their shining star (pun intended) in their media portfolio as well as showing off a new animation style that would blow us away. When that failed, yeah, people were disappointed maybe even outrageously so. But I don't think that's silly, I think that's human.