Disney pricing the middle class out

[minnie-apple-mouse]

Sure, but not because either of these parks are "too busy" as of the present. Rather, they're "too empty" - hence the new construction to try and remedy that.

Too busy...IMO. Double the price from where it is today, and we may actually get a 2nd ride on a headliner.

Secondly-my point is they are expanding on what your complaining about-old news now.

Big picture, yes they are. However, I am guarded, as every other recent project / expansion has gone something like this: announce big, drag out, scale back, drag out some more, under deliver on initial promises. Especially in this stagnant economy, I'm all the more cautious. As previously mentioned, all that it would take is one more economic setback (i.e. Greece defaulting), which would lead to anything currently under construction being massively scaled back, and anything awaiting shovels hitting the ground to be shelved indefinitely. In other words, I'll believe all of these visions of grandeur when I see them. Not saying that they won't happen - I'm just cautious.

If any other business went to its customers with massive, YOY price increases for more than a decade - in a flat/declining economy - without providing any additional products/services in return, they wouldn't be in business today. In essence, we've acted as the bank since the early 2000's, and we don't have much interest (i.e. new attractions) to show for it. I get that Disney "can", and that's why they have. It doesn't make it any less painful to the faithful consumers.

Yes it could slow down again, but some of us like it already. And to me, 10 years of expansion (1989 to 1999) can result in continuous price increases for another 10 years. ACtually I think it should, plus they added 3 of the top attractions of all WDW then as well.

We bought and sold 3 DVC contracts during the 2000 to 2008 period, virtually staying Deluxe for free the whole time.

If the additional $3.8 Billion goes through (plus D Springs, Frozen, DVC, Pandora, Soarin 2, TSM 2, MK Hub, NFL, 7DMT, AK Night show etc) and it does get implemented by 2020ish-I am perfectly OK with 10 more years of 3 of top 3 major headliners additions, and yes annual price increases. I'm even happy with no additions for 10 years after that, even with annual price increases.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

I think you're giving way too much credit where credit is not due...

A very common diagnosis in the land of disneydom

The issue is with the individual guest satisfaction.

If a guest is not satisfied with a product, yet still contributes/pays the price-then they are unwise.

The guest that is satisfied with the product and gladly will pay more is actually wise with their vacation/budget selection.

 

[Planogirl]

So if they charge more because something is too busy and more because something is not busy enough...

I agree that as long as the guests come and pay the prices then Disney isn't doing anything bad. It is painful for some of us though.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If a guest is not satisfied with a product, yet still contributes/pays the price-then they are unwise.

....Hmmmm....

 

[lockedoutlogic]

So if they charge more because something is too busy and more because something is not busy enough...

I agree that as long as the guests come and pay the prices then Disney isn't doing anything bad. It is painful for some of us though.

I would say this as honest/ even keel we're gonna get around these parts...

 

[Andrew015]

Too busy...IMO. Double the price from where it is today, and we may actually get a 2nd ride on a headliner.

Or save the Billion $ on FP+ and revert back to the old system. I never had any trouble riding headliners over and over again under the old system. And the crowds were virtually the same.... I digress.

Secondly-my point is they are expanding on what your complaining about-old news now.

Only about a dozen or so years late... Hence the beef...

And to me, 10 years of expansion (1989 to 1999) can result in continuous price increases for another 10 years. ACtually I think it should, plus they added 3 of the top attractions of all WDW then as well.

Again, show me an example of any other business anywhere in the world where increases that are double or triple that of inflation are considered to be "acceptable" for a decade running after receiving said product / service? Fact of the matter is, you'll have better luck finding a pink unicorn.

 

[Josh Hendy]

Again, show me an example of any other business anywhere in the world where increases that are double or triple that of inflation are considered to be "acceptable" for a decade running after receiving said product / service? Fact of the matter is, you'll have better luck finding a pink unicorn.

Universities? Health care companies? Grocery stores? Gas companies? Electrical companies?

The fact is, when you talk about the "inflation" of the last several decades, you are talking about a deliberately fudged statistic. Fudged downward, for the purposes of making it easier for the government and banks to pay off debt, meet "inflation indexed" payments such as salaries, pensions, annuities, etc. and (most importantly) allowing them to print trillions of dollars of money out of thin air, and then to use that money as freely and carelessly as a baby blows bubbles in the bathtub.

Disney is not particularly evil. Not because they're outstandingly moral or charitable people, but because they must offer products for a price that is as close as possible to the cost of production ... otherwise they would lose their customers to a harder working and less greedy competitor. They're not the ones screwing the middle class. The middle class is being screwed out of their paychecks and their savings by the collusion of the government and banks, who are inflating the currency (meaning, destroying its value) while at the same time pointing to fake statistics called "official inflation" which they claim are proof that they're not flooding the world with trillions of dollars of fake, worthless money.

It's not communism, and it sure isn't capitalism. It's governmentism. The history of money is the history of governments issuing currency, promising that the currency is stable and well managed in the people's interest, and then debasing the currency as fast as they can get away with it. Nothing in the history of money has changed from the time of Roman and Chinese emperors until now, except that the euphemisms and lies used to deny the existence of currency debasement have changed. The Big Lie right now is called "official inflation".

 

[Andrew015]

Universities? Health care companies? Grocery stores? Gas companies? Electrical companies?

I was hinting at corporations, not government institutions or utilities. And FWIW, natural gas prices are at a ~10-year low.

The fact is, when you talk about the "inflation" of the last several decades, you are talking about a deliberately fudged statistic. Fudged downward, for the purposes of making it easier for the government and banks to pay off debt, meet "inflation indexed" payments such as salaries, pensions, annuities, etc. and (most importantly) allowing them to print trillions of dollars of money out of thin air, and then to use that money as freely and carelessly as a baby blows bubbles in the bathtub.

Disney is not particularly evil. Not because they're outstandingly moral or charitable people, but because they must offer products for a price that is as close as possible to the cost of production ... otherwise they would lose their customers to a harder working and less greedy competitor. They're not the ones screwing the middle class. The middle class is being screwed out of their paychecks and their savings by the collusion of the government and banks, who are inflating the currency (meaning, destroying its value) while at the same time pointing to fake statistics called "official inflation" which they claim are proof that they're not flooding the world with trillions of dollars of fake, worthless money.

It's not communism, and it sure isn't capitalism. It's governmentism. The history of money is the history of governments issuing currency, promising that the currency is stable and well managed in the people's interest, and then debasing the currency as fast as they can get away with it. Nothing in the history of money has changed from the time of Roman and Chinese emperors until now, except that the euphemisms and lies used to deny the existence of currency debasement have changed. The Big Lie right now is called "official inflation".

In general, I don't disagree.

 

[mvk]

Or save the Billion $ on FP+ and revert back to the old system. I never had any trouble riding headliners over and over again under the old system. And the crowds were virtually the same.... I digress.

The billion $ on FP+ wasn't about FP+, it was about data collection and making it easier to for the guests to pay for more stuff/impulse items. FP+ is a side benefit (to most, it seems there's a vocal minority though) to the MM+ rollout.

 

[Andrew015]

The billion $ on FP+ wasn't about FP+, it was about data collection and making it easier to for the guests to pay for more stuff/impulse items. FP+ is a side benefit (to most, it seems there's a vocal minority though) to the MM+ rollout.

I'm fully aware of the entire scope/intentions of MM+. The point of my post was to illustrate that it's not "excessive crowds" that are prohibiting the previous poster from riding headliners more than once...

 

[theyoungs07]

So do tens of thousands of other U.S. companies, and I'm hard-pressed to name one that has had price increases anywhere near the size of Disney's over the past decade...

You obviously haven't been looking into college costs in the past decade...

 

[Andrew015]

You obviously haven't been looking into college costs in the past decade...

See post #248.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

....Hmmmm....

Let me guess, you just did exactly that.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

Or save the Billion $ on FP+ and revert back to the old system. I never had any trouble riding headliners over and over again under the old system. And the crowds were virtually the same.... I digress.

To be fair we travel busier weeks, so it was elbow to elbow either way.

Only about a dozen or so years late... Hence the beef...

Still old news now.

Again, show me an example of any other business anywhere in the world where increases that are double or triple that of inflation are considered to be "acceptable" for a decade running after receiving said product / service? Fact of the matter is, you'll have better luck finding a pink unicorn.

Noticed you skipped over the free DVC stays during that time. Our stays dropped in price dramatically.

 

[Andrew015]

Still old news now.

So the fact that we as consumers are finally getting what we started paying for back in the early 2000's should just roll off everyone's back? Interesting. Maybe I'll see if some of my customers wouldn't mind taking double-digit price increases today (and each and every subsequent year for the next 10 years) for future benefits to be realized in and around 2025 - provided that the economy warrants me coming through with said benefits at that point in time. The "oh well, suck it up" mentality just boggles my mind.

I get it - the easy answer is "well then don't go". Somehow, I just feel better about "sucking it up" and paying the mouse if I can vent on these forums

Noticed you skipped over the free DVC stays during that time. Our stays dropped in price dramatically.

Careful - you're stepping into my wheelhouse. So let me ask - why did you buy your ~$20K worth of "free" DVC? Was it to avoid paying $500/night for a room that is comparable to a Courtyard by Marriot? If the answer is "yes", say no more, because it's the same exact reason that I own DVC. That $500/night room is virtually identical - sans new paint - as it was when it cost $250/night back in 2004. So you said the heck with it - let's lock in at today's rate to avoid this ridiculous, unjustifiable inflation. You're actually helping my argument with this example.

If only they offered a similar program with park admission and food...

 

[pilferk]

Just to nose in a bit to the convo...

We bought our DVC when AKL was first offered (first day it was available to buy for "outsiders"). I remember doing all the ROI/Opportunity cost analysis, and a potential room rate comparison over 50 years...in fact, I still have those excel spreadsheets.

For comparison sake, I took room rates and made two projections: One according to a decade of historical inflation rates (low), and one based on a decade of historical room rate increases (high).

Disney has outpaced my high projection almost from the get go.

It makes our hotel stays an INCREDIBLE deal, now...even as ticket prices make me do a spit take.

Edit: And, not that I was asked, but...YES, we did it to avoid the hotel rate increases and lock in a more reasonable rate for our family of 5.

 

[Teamubr]

It's not communism, and it sure isn't capitalism. It's governmentism. The history of money is the history of governments issuing currency, promising that the currency is stable and well managed in the people's interest, and then debasing the currency as fast as they can get away with it. Nothing in the history of money has changed from the time of Roman and Chinese emperors until now, except that the euphemisms and lies used to deny the existence of currency debasement have changed. The Big Lie right now is called "official inflation".

Probably one of the best descriptions on this I have heard.

j

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

So the fact that we as consumers are finally getting what we started paying for back in the early 2000's should just roll off everyone's back? Interesting. Maybe I'll see if some of my customers wouldn't mind taking double-digit price increases today (and each and every subsequent year for the next 10 years) for future benefits to be realized in and around 2025 - provided that the economy warrants me coming through with said benefits at that point in time. The "oh well, suck it up" mentality just boggles my mind.

I get it - the easy answer is "well then don't go". Somehow, I just feel better about "sucking it up" and paying the mouse if I can vent on these forums

See below:

Careful - you're stepping into my wheelhouse. So let me ask - why did you buy your ~$20K worth of "free" DVC? Was it to avoid paying $500/night for a room that is comparable to a Courtyard by Marriot? If the answer is "yes", say no more, because it's the same exact reason that I own DVC. That $500/night room is virtually identical - sans new paint - as it was when it cost $250/night back in 2004. So you said the heck with it - let's lock in at today's rate to avoid this ridiculous, unjustifiable inflation. You're actually helping my argument with this example.

If only they offered a similar program with park admission and food...

Well yes and no-I remember adding a few days at the POLY in 2004 for $700 a night.

Point is-they expanded DVC rapidly the decade you say they ripped us off. Yet we bought BCV for $70 when it opened in 2002 or so, and sold some contracts for $95 in 2007. So those trips were more or less free stays even after dues. So even offsite would have been more expensive, but yes certainly saved a lot over our typical deluxe stays.

Now we rent 1/2 of our points so we have no dues at all for our points. We can sell our remaining contracts for much more than we bought them for at any time. Very similar to owning a home but just having taxes, or even a monthly payment. Or buying a Twin home, then renting one side out to cover both sides expenses. You can live for free-then sell when you want. Compare that to outright renting a home/apt for cash. In effect-we stay for free to this day because of what they offered in the 2000 to 2010 time frame.

An increase on the AP (esp after the DVC discount started in 2005) was fairly minimal over that time period. Certainly not the $50 to $250 to $700 per night we saved with DVC.

Food? I have to eat at home anyway. Garden Grocer and a mini kitchen, or even full kitchen? Throw in ME (started in 2005 by the way) as well so no car rental anymore, and no driving required. Also no luggage in either airport.

NO, our trips dropped in price and increased in quality dramatically during the 2000 to 2010 time frame.

.

 

[Andrew015]

See below:

Well yes and no-I remember adding a few days at the POLY in 2004 for $700 a night.

Point is-they expanded DVC rapidly the decade you say they ripped us off. Yet we bought BCV for $70 when it opened in 2002 or so, and sold some contracts for $95 in 2007. So those trips were more or less free stays even after dues. So even offsite would have been more expensive, but yes certainly saved a lot over our typical deluxe stays.

Now we rent 1/2 of our points so we have no dues at all for our points. We can sell our remaining contracts for much more than we bought them for at any time. Very similar to owning a home but just having taxes, or even a monthly payment. Or buying a Twin home, then renting one side out to cover both sides expenses. You can live for free-then sell when you want. Compare that to outright renting a home/apt for cash. In effect-we stay for free to this day because of what they offered in the 2000 to 2010 time frame.

An increase on the AP (esp after the DVC discount started in 2005) was fairly minimal over that time period. Certainly not the $50 to $250 to $700 per night we saved with DVC.

Food? I have to eat at home anyway. Garden Grocer and a mini kitchen, or even full kitchen? Throw in ME (started in 2005 by the way) as well so no car rental anymore, and no driving required. Also no luggage in either airport.

NO, our trips dropped in price and increased in quality dramatically during the 2000 to 2010 time frame.

It appears that you played the DVC game quite well based on when you bought in and decided to flip certain contracts. A tip of the hat to you for that, but your experience is in no way, shape or form representative of the typical experience for the vast majority of guests.

 

[minnie-apple-mouse]

It appears that you played the DVC game quite well based on when you bought in and decided to flip certain contracts. A tip of the hat to you for that, but your experience is in no way, shape or form representative of the typical experience for the vast majority of guests.

But was available to everyone. I would guess 90% of DVC members that bought in that early to mid 2000's, even late 2000's-still own and are basically staying on dues. These things were all offered during the time in question.

Today for under $10K (far less than most cars) you can get a week at OKW or BWV every year for no extra charge (by renting 1/2 your points-75), then sell the 150 points when you feel the time is right. Probably get your $10K back, or at least a big chunk of it.

Then get $150 each off the AP as well.

About $18K will get you a week at GFV every year, POLY for even less-maybe $16K.

Or about $5K can get you 75 resale points. Now in that case you would be also paying full dues of what..$400 annually?

$400 for a week at the BWV, around $50 a night.