Disappointing News - Primeval Whirl

[larworth]

I thought AV had some very interesting revelations about Disney and the perceived value equation (# attractions) at the beginning of this post that seemed worthy of some discussion. However, there is nothing like DiRa to get things rolling so I will open another thread on this.

If we can look past it being cheap. I said forget about it being cheap, just totally ignore the cheap way it was built for a moment (see I was able to do it) I was wondering if having such a contrasting mini-land is a good design technique or not?

The rest of DAK has a proper, formal feel. Is it good behavioral science to provide some sort of brief counter-experience? Kind of like having a vaudeville comedian entertain the audience during the intermission of the Lion King on Broadway. If it hadn’t been done on the cheap (dang, slipped) would it still have been a good concept, not really appropriate for what DAK was trying to do accomplish, or doesn’t really matter it's just a theme park?

I like the whimsical concept. Don’t like the fact there is no berm to separate the clashing themes. I’m also not fond of what they decided to stock it with. Did I mention that it sure seems to be done on the cheap. Could it have been a good idea or not?

 

[Lesley]

Sorry scoop...not what I meant to say...but even if you replace "done" with "themed" the point is the same.

And I do appreciate a question with substance...
Larworth, you ask whether or not a little "comic relief" in theming is a good idea at AK? Perhaps...but I do see plenty of that in evidence around the park already. There is plenty of playfulness to counter some of the more serious messages the park passes along. Look at the LK show, the dig site, the music and signs as you wait for ITTBAB.

If they had added an area with an appropriate theme, not changing an area of the park that was fine the way it was, maybe something different could work. But still, calling "roadside carnival" a theme is like calling "Six Flags" or "big thrill ride park" a theme. But heck, I'm not a big fan of the Camp Minnie-Mickey concept either.

And I also think that perhaps to keep AK focused on what it is supposed to be they should develop a full park before considering diversions. Right now all they've created is a diversion from the fact that there is a shortage of things to do that actually belong in a park called *Animal* Kingdom....and I don't think the public is that easily fooled.

 

[Lesley]

Sorry scoop...not what I meant to say...but even if you replace "done" with "themed" the point is the same.

And I do appreciate a question with substance...
Larworth, you ask whether or not a little "comic relief" in theming is a good idea at AK? Perhaps...but I do see plenty of that in evidence around the park already. There is plenty of playfulness to counter some of the more serious messages the park passes along. Look at the LK show, the dig site, the music and signs as you wait for ITTBAB.

If they had added an area with an appropriate theme, not changing an area of the park that was fine the way it was, maybe something different could work. But still, calling "roadside carnival" a theme is like calling "Six Flags" or "big thrill ride park" a theme. But heck, I'm not a big fan of the Camp Minnie-Mickey concept either.

And I also think that perhaps to keep AK focused on what it is supposed to be they should develop a full park before considering diversions. Right now all they've created is a diversion from the fact that there is a shortage of things to do that actually belong in a park called *Animal* Kingdom....and I don't think the public is that easily fooled.

 

[Lesley]

Sorry scoop...not what I meant to say...but even if you replace "done" with "themed" the point is the same.

And I do appreciate a question with substance...
Larworth, you ask whether or not a little "comic relief" in theming is a good idea at AK? Perhaps...but I do see plenty of that in evidence around the park already. There is plenty of playfulness to counter some of the more serious messages the park passes along. Look at the LK show, the dig site, the music and signs as you wait for ITTBAB.

If they had added an area with an appropriate theme, not changing an area of the park that was fine the way it was, maybe something different could work. But still, calling "roadside carnival" a theme is like calling "Six Flags" or "big thrill ride park" a theme. But heck, I'm not a big fan of the Camp Minnie-Mickey concept either.

And I also think that perhaps to keep AK focused on what it is supposed to be they should develop a full park before considering diversions. Right now all they've created is a diversion from the fact that there is a shortage of things to do that actually belong in a park called *Animal* Kingdom....and I don't think the public is that easily fooled.

 

[Another Voice]

I know plenty of young children who dream of flying with Dumbo after seeing the movie. The spinner was the best way Disney had at the time of giving them that experience.

I have yet to hear of any child or adult that dreams of spending a few days in the shadow of a fifty foot bowling pin while a neon “Do The Funky Chicken” sign flickers outside their window. Those artifacts were the cheapest why Disney thought it could express its present “brand image” so a premium could be charged for standard issue motel rooms.

That, Captain sir, is the difference.

At its core, ‘Dumbo’ was about making children happy. At its core ‘Dino-Rama’ is all about making a few adults a little richer. I simply prefer to make my children happy rather than lower my standards to insure the continued good fortune of some businessman.

 

[Barb]

No offense, d-r.
I love Dumbo, I like Aladdin. They do have a legimate basis for being there. I don't do the Carousel, it makes me dizzy.
Try as I may, try as I might, I still don't get the concept. I haven't read a lot of Walt's ideals, but I find it very hard to believe this is what he had in mind. To those who revel in Disney themeing, this is a disappointing quick and dirty fix to a problem. I love AK as a whole. It has charm and appeal. All of the charm and appeal goes right out the window the minute you see that section of the park. I am almost embarrassed to be seen there.
Then again, we are all entitled to our opinions-that's what makes the world go 'round.

 

[raidermatt]

I am trying very hard to stick to my guns, and withhold judgement on DR (not d-r) until I see it in May/June. Same with Aladdin. But its getting very difficult...

Suzy- Very well thought-out and even passionate post. The only part that throws me a bit is the example of your mother and 11 year-old brother. Even if we accept that the recent direction is too Six Flagish, there is still so much more at WDW that is not Six Flagish that its hard to envision infrequent visitors coming away with a complete Six Flags impression. MK has the Mountains, PoC, HM, Fantasyland, parades, fireworks, etc. ToT and Fantasmic are certainly not Six Flagish. The non-DR portions of AK may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they are hardly Six Flagish.

This is not meant as a challenge to your opinions, because while I personally disagree to a certain extent, I realize this is a very subjective topic, and I'm open-minded enough to know my opinions may very well change in the future (though I hope not).

But is it possible that your little brother has hit that "tweener" stage that so many do? The point when Disney is no longer cool? Because when you take a step back and look at the complete package, its very hard to say WDW is merely a cluster of Six Flags parks.


As I hinted in my first sentence, I have reservations about DR. Much more so than Aladdin. As Scoop pointed out, there really is no difference in Aladdin and Dumbo. Both are appropriate for what they are trying to achieve. But I also see the point that Dumbo was more of an achievement in its time than Aladdin is in its. So while my initial opinion is Aladdin is a nice addition, I can understand not giving Disney the same credit for it as Dumbo.

But back to DR. Triceratops' don't fly. I was a Dino-lover as a kid, and I never wanted to fly like a Triceratops. Because they don't fly. Carnival games? I'll wait to see how they fit, but I would feel much better if the prices were similar to what was charged at those roadside carnivals oh so many years ago. The prizes could be toned down to avoid taking a loss. If that were done, and the clear emphasis was on how much fun these games could be, not on finding the spare ones in my pocket, then I would feel much better going in. That would fit with the theme. PW? We'll see. I'm sure it will be fun, but we'll see how it fits.

So if I have reservations, why am I still car 1? Because even if DR is a bomb, the Magic that is still in WDW and even AK will make that bomb sound more like a handful of Pop-Rocks. It'll take more than a few bonehead attractions to fade the Magic I find.


Larworth- For the most part I think the answer to your question is that it would be better to keep the overall feel of the park in order. Fun, exciting attractions can be added without disrupting the overall feel of the park. Things that simulate running like/with a Cheetah, going underwater with a whale, flying like an eagle, and even dueling with a dragon can be themes that would fit in well with Kilamanjaro, Kali, etc. The Boneyard proves the kiddies can be entertained. I'm not sure it has to stay proper and formal, but I think it would be best not to stray TOO far from that theme. After all, it is a THEME park.

 

[Another Voice]

Oh please Mr. Scoop….

‘Aladdin’ does have a lot in common with ‘Dumbo’ and I’m far less critical of that ride than I am of ‘Dino-Rama’. My qualms are that ‘Aladdin’ was hyped as a “major addition” to the Magic Kingdom (when it’s very clearly not) and that with fifty years of progress in technology and experience behind them that Disney couldn’t come up with something better. It’s all part of the “lack of ambition” trend The Company is exhibiting. I had hoped they would use skill and imagination to design new attractions rather than picking from the menu of cheaper rides in the ‘Rollercoaster Tycoon’ game. But my hopes were dashed once again when the plans for Dino-Rama came out. At least they could have bought one of the upgrades first.

By the way, rumors are saying the cars only spin at the very end of ‘Primeval Whirl’. The cars face forward and are locked in place for most of the ride.

 

[Captain Crook]

I thought rumors were saying the cars spin the second half of the ride...But so what? Is the ride great or what? So far the advance reports have been overwhlmingly positive.

I NEVER recall Aladdin being billed as a major attraction...

There you go with your "lack of ambition" type charge again. What was the DAKL, chopped liver? I know it's 'just' a resort, but please, what else compares to the breadth, granduer & scheme put forth?

 

[mattjs]

I'm skeptical but the few first hand rider reports I've read have been exceptionaly positive. Doesn't address the issue of fitting in with the rest of AK but, like raidermatt, I'm trying real hard to withold judgement on this one.

In any case, Orlando Rocks just posted both pictures and video of PW up and running. For some reason I can't seem to get the video yet but the pictures are most deffinitely up.

 

[Planogirl]

Captain Crook, I actually agree with you in a way! You said:

When I see DR, I have to say it makes me smile...It is so silly & hideous that it somehow compelling.

I can actually understand what you mean by this statement even if I don't see it myself at DR. I have seen it at other attractions and maybe I'm being overly critical. I guess the only fair thing to do is see how the public reacts to both DR and PC. AND to see if Space will finally be the badly needed BIG attraction at WDW. These little additions just don't cut it which makes all of this worse I think.

Suzy, brilliant post! You say so well what I constantly struggle to say. The problem I have is that I'm by nature succinct which doesn't work real well in these discussions. So post on when you can please! I enjoyed reading your comments.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

What was the DAKL, chopped liver? I know it's 'just' a resort, but please, what else compares to the breadth, granduer & scheme put forth?

Ah, that's easy, Captain! Wilderness Lodge. To which it is almost identical!! Sure wish they would have changed it a little bit. Don't you?

 

[Lesley]

Landbaron, have you been to AKL? It really is wonderful....and is not nearly identical to WL. Both are beautiful, but I digress.....

And for the "so hideous its compelling" thing....ah, yes...I used to have a couch that fit that description. I don't find Dinorama compelling.....but perhaps others will. Honestly though, I pray everyone hates it so they might consider removing it quickly...they've done that before haven't they? Wasn't there some Goosebumps thing at MGM for awhile?

And sorry about the last triple post...boards were acting up and it won't let me remove the extras.

 

[Another Voice]

“What was the DAKL, chopped liver? I know it's 'just' a resort, but please, what else compares to the breadth, grandeur & scheme put forth?”

Compared to the breadth, grandeur and schemes that had been planned for the Mediterranean Resort or even the “moderate” Buffalo Junction – Animal Kingdom Lodge does come off as nothing but a well decorate Hilton. There’s nothing unique about the structure or layout. Yes, it’s a very nice hotel from what I’ve seen. But it also didn’t set a very high bar either.

There’s a huge difference between being “innovative” and being “well-done”. A standard box hotel, no matter how much stuff they nail to the walls or how many animals they cage out back, really isn’t innovative. So much COULD have been, but Disney lack the courage to try.

At least Captain you’ve finally acknowledge that Dino-Rama is a complete auto wreck. Something “so hideous that it’s compelling” always draws a crowd on the freeways around here. At least Disney’s figured out a way to make a buck from the gawkers.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

... Kinda busy at work lately!!

Suzy or Ms SJ or perhaps Mrs. JJ (just to mitigate the confusion ) VERY good post!! I still have the longest post on record, but yours came very close!! It just means I’m not trying hard enough. So, watch out guys!!! Maybe it’s time to dust off that Walt Quote book again!!!

Oh, and BTW, I agree with every word of it!! It cuts to the essence of the problem.

Landbaron, have you been to AKL? It really is wonderful....and is not nearly identical to WL.

Yes I have. And you are right. I like it. Sort of. But, I was referring to lobby portion I suppose. To me it was very reminiscent of WL. Maybe I’m wrong (wouldn’t be the first time) but from the moment I walked in I was just slightly disappointed that the lobby, with minor changes and of course theme details, looked, and felt the same as WL. Doesn’t anyone else see the rather overt similarities?

At least Captain you’ve finally acknowledge that Dino-Rama is a complete auto wreck.

Awe NUTS!! I was gonna say that!!!

 

[Lesley]

Ah, yes, some small similarities...it was designed by the same architect wasn't it? I'll admit I felt some "okay, so this is it" at first but as I explored more I found more little things that I love...the firepits, the different levels that I didn't really expect, the cool things that can be found when you venture down the hallways.

Really, I'm curious as to why AV refers to this as a "decorated Hilton" or "standard box hotel". Please tell us, AV! I really want to visit these places that make AKL look so average.

Geesh this really bugs me because I usually completely agree with you guys.....but then again those Garden Wings are magical to me (but that's a totally personal thing and I can understand why they're not to others!). I'd better go to bed....maybe its just that I need sleep!

 

[Captain Crook]

Voice, excuse me for saying so but now you're comparing 'innovation' & 'well done', there are just too many eggs to fry here. I'm with Lesley, the AKL is extraordinary. It has a zoo for goodness sake. The layout, the landscaping, man it's darn near perfect, IMO...And while you can see distinct similarities with the WL & probably the GC, it is unto itself as an African Savannah Hotel in the heart of central Florida.

I'm happy that my "hideous & compelling" statement was at least able to bridge the gap of our understandings somewhat...But, before the continuation of the "roadside car-wreck" vision continue, I must say that I find that totally uncompelling & wish I could turn back. To me another example of compelling yet will drive you crazy is IASW. Certainly it is a classic & was cool in its time, but that music must have always been irritating.

As for DR (the location), I reiterate, can't we get some consensus that they did do a good job with what they were trying to accomplish, even if you don't like, hate or despise it? Even if you hate the rationale, and realize what they could have done? Can't somebody at least recognize that they did a pretty damn good job recreating a roadside carny show???

 

[JeffJewell]

Can't somebody at least recognize that they did a pretty damn good job recreating a roadside carny show???

...I, for one, have pointed out several times that they put up a reasonably exact duplicate of a parking lot carnival. I honestly don't think that was ever in question (Actually, I believe that at one point I was taken to task for using pretty much the exact words you just used, but between the fact that I'm pretty sure it was before the last big crash and considering the roaring success I met with my most recent foray onto the "search" page, I'm not going to try to find it).

The question that I have more interest in (because it has to do with the future direction of the company and its products, rather than whether or not a particular something can be enjoyed by some subset of people) is whether "recreating a roadside carny" is a project consistent with Disney's traditions. Roadside carnies are recreated every summer weekend all over the country. I just don't see what's so special, what's so Magical, what's so Disney... about DinoRama... about "recreating a roadside carny." I don't feel a few extra concrete molds and plywood cutouts raise the common to the "Magical," even if the Imagineers did do a great job with what they were given to work with.

My problem is what they were given to work with, not the job they did erecting it.

Jeff

PS: I'll let Suzy relate her first words upon entering AKL, if she so chooses... coming from me, it's likely to sound same-old, same-old. What I will say is that the AKL often uses curved lines, whereas WL almost never does... and both are absolutely appropriate for their thematic location. That may be another one of those things that I'm the only one who notices, though. And I just love the multi-level restaurant/bar area hanging off the side of the lobby. If you asked me what's best about AKL, I'd say Boma and Jiko in a heartbeat.

 

[All Aboard]

Animal Kingdom Lodge does come off as nothing but a well decorate Hilton. There’s nothing unique about the structure or layout. Yes, it’s a very nice hotel from what I’ve seen. But it also didn’t set a very high bar either.

Sometimes I have to reread things several times before I actually believe what I just read.

AV, with all due respect... I value your insight and perspective a great deal. Never does a post of yours go unread by me. I do put alot of stock in what you say. However, when your abhorrance of current management shines through so strong as to make an absurd comment like this, well it's just disappointing. Surely you cannot believe this.

 

[Barb]

Ok, I'll give you that much-it is cute for what it is. But what it is is not what I expect from Disney when they announce they're adding a new ride/attraction/area to a theme park. Maybe my expectations are too high, maybe they're not as realistic as they should be, maybe I'm asking too much. Triceratops Spin is a concept my four year nephew could have come up with. "Gee, let's make Dumbo look like a dinosaur." When Mr. Toad's Wild Ride was closed to make way for a new attraction, I was all set to hate the replacement. I am a lover of Disney Classics and to take away Mr. Toad was unfathomable to me. But, I love Winnie the Pooh. It has all the things I love about Disney themed rides. It's all just so darned cute, I couldn't help but love it. They could have even gotten away with leaving Triceratops Spin as is, if only (and there's the rub-if only) they would have produced an adequate coaster type ride with some "real" themeing and some real effort put into it. I saw PW. It's exactly like any wild mouse you see at dozens of carnivals. Big deal, it has a lot of signs with dino's on them. Sorry it just doesn't do it for me. I will reserve my final judgement for when I ride this in June. And, maybe I will like it for what it is, maybe I won't. I know I don't like it where it is, no matter what.
As for the "games", all I can say is thank God I don't have little ones anymore. This has to be a parents nightmare at it's best. All I can see is kids having to be dragged away kicking and screaming because they want to play the games. Now I will say that I did see a lot of kids carrying stuffed dino's so they're either farely easy to win or somebody's shelling out a lot of money to win stuffed animals.