Difference between the fires and Katrina

(don't know if this was already posted I saw it on www.cnn.com)


FEMA faces wildfire, Katrina comparisons

Story Highlights :
-FEMA doesn't face utter devastation as in Gulf Coast in 2005
-Victims can escape in own vehicles on open roads
-Communications infrastructure remains intact
-Agencies learn from Hurricane Katrina mistakes

(CNN) -- Federal Emergency Management Agency officials know the agency's performance in the California wildfires will be watched closely for comparisons to its failures in Hurricane Katrina.

FEMA Director David Paulison promised on Tuesday "a different type of response than the federal government put together for Katrina."

Paulison said Katrina "was a wake-up call" and that "this is a new FEMA."

President Bush signed a federal disaster declaration Wednesday, freeing up federal funds for families affected by the wildfires in seven counties in Southern California.

"I will continue to make sure that our efforts are coordinated, that we are responding to the needs of people, but most importantly I want the people in Southern California to know that Americans all across this land care deeply about them," he said.

The action follows an emergency declaration by Bush on Tuesday morning for the counties of Los Angeles, Orange, Riverside, San Bernardino, San Diego, Santa Barbara, and Ventura.

He said he's "looking forward" to his visit to the region on Thursday.


According to a statement from the White House, the federal disaster declaration will allow for federal aid that "can include grants for temporary housing and home repairs, low-cost loans to cover uninsured property losses, and other programs to help individuals and business owners recover from the effects of the disaster."

FEMA and other relief and rescue services face significantly different challenges in the fire zone than they did on the Gulf Coast in 2005.

For example, the fires aren't covering every square foot of the region, as Katrina did. The devastation in California is intense but not universal.

During and immediately after Katrina, the destruction was so complete that relief personnel and supplies -- even the U.S. Army -- could not get within miles of the disaster's epicenter, New Orleans' Lower Ninth Ward, for several days.

By contrast, roads in Southern California have remained open for residents to get out and help to get in without delay. Residents there are generally more affluent and are able to use their own vehicles to escape, whereas many of Katrina's victims were poor and had no means of transportation.

Victims in California are not stranded on rooftops without food or drinkable water, but are able travel the relatively short distances to safe places.

One of those safe places is San Diego's Qualcomm Stadium, which is not endangered by the fires. FEMA and other relief agencies are able to stage supplies and meet victims' needs in an organized way.

New Orleans' Superdome, on the other hand, sitting in the center of the disaster zone, was severely damaged by hurricane winds and threatened by rising water. What had been a shelter devolved into a trap.

Katrina also wiped out the Gulf Coast's communications infrastructure, crippling the coordination of relief efforts -- even for the military.

Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff acknowledged Tuesday that the government's response machinery had benefited from the Katrina experience.

"I think there's no question that [there were] a couple of the lessons from Katrina which we have put into effect here," Chertoff said.

"First of all, planning and preparation in advance for these kinds of challenges, so that we have worked together and planned together with the Defense Department and with state authorities well in advance of the crisis. That's been a big help here," Chertoff said

"Second, we have really flooded the zone as quickly as possible by staging assets to deal both with the firefighting issue and with the response issue," Chertoff said.

Chertoff said federal officials began discussing over the weekend the need to have FEMA ready, "and as we saw the evacuation issue becoming more prominent, and the number of people seeking shelter becoming more prominent, we sprang into action yesterday.

"So we've been monitoring the situation continuously. The president's been on top of it. We've been on top of it. And we're going to continue to stay ahead of this as far as we can."

Chertoff said Tuesday that he hadn't waited for the paperwork to be signed before staging assistance.

"We have been moving cots, blankets, other supplies into the area of San Diego so that we can handle any necessity for additional sheltering capacity," he said. "We've also moved air assets to be poised to take flight when we do have the opportunity to deal with the fire, once the winds begin to die down."

People left homeless by the fires can already go online to apply for federal help at www.fema.gov, Paulison said. Watch Paulison discuss the "new FEMA" »

He denied suggestions similar to those made in the aftermath of Katrina that the federal response was hampered because National Guard equipment was in short supply because of the Iraq War.

"I just haven't seen that," he said.

The U.S. military has sent aircraft to help fight the fires, including 11 Defense Department helicopters equipped with water buckets and six C-130 aircraft able to drop water and flame retardant.

More than 17,000 National Guardsmen have been made available; 550 Marines were ready for deployment from Camp Pendleton, north of San Diego; and 12 Defense Department firefighting teams, were engaged.


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And now we come back to my question from 2 years ago. It is your point (and LuvDuke's) that he should have broken the law and sent in aid anyway. I get that. Do you get the Constitutional powers that would give him if he did that?

It would then give him the Constitutional powers, if we allowed it to stay unchallenged (and every president who follows) to send in and/or federalize troops for ANY emergency what so ever. Any emergency, such as someone dialing 911 because someone passed out. You would be establising a dictatorship for the Presidency, not in theory, not in name, but in fact. Florida would forever remain a protectorate, the Gulf as well. Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, Missouri as well.

Again, if this president is as dumb as you say he is, why in God's name would you want to give him that much power?

Well folks is this what you want or not? I'm not holding my breath for an answer!
 
I could be totally wrong here, but I thought the Federal Government through FEMA had pretty broad powers to go in and take over in major emergencies? I don't mean that FEMA can call up the Guard, but I thought there was a lot they could do to take control of a situation?

Again, I could be totaly wrong about that, I just remember hearing some conspiracy nut (and this was like 10 years ago) that FEMA had all these powers that had potential for abuse.


Sorry, but I have to say that you are wrong in this circumstance. The federal government (Bush or anyone one else including the democratic majority leader) could not go in without the permission of the state.

Unfortunately Bianco was receiving advise from her advisors telling her to not vacate her control over the situation because of political ramifications.
 
and Bush decided to allow all those people to die because he never ever breaks the law and he didn't want to offend the governor? Is that what you believe?


Bush did not allow those people to die. Nagin did. There were hundreds of city busses that could have been used to evacuate people and he said NO.
I live here. I'm a Democrat. I vote Democrat . However, truth is truth. I'm not so blinded by party that I refuse to see the forest for the trees. Fact is fact whether one chooses to believe it or not. Law is law.
How many times does a criminal get away with a crime because of a technicality in the law? alot. Bush's hands were tied in this situation. If he had called, I believe that she would have told him to stick it-it's how she operates-a real class act. Also, after reading some of these comments, if he had called, some would have criticized him for meddling. Life is not Utopia and things don't happen one way just because we believe they should.
 

WTH, this was part of the point I was trying to make on the conservative thread about the silent, non political majority in this country. You're bringing up some good points, but in the end and years from now, the American public won't recognize or remember Blanco or Nagin. They will recognise and remember GWB and what he did and didn't do in that crisis. There's a group of people in this great country of ours who don't look at things through their political viewpoints. Right and wrong, fair and unfair don't come into the picture. They see the POTUS as the man in charge, a leader, and look at him similar as some do a Pro football coach. The coach gets too much of the credit when things are going good and too much of blame when things are going bad. It just the way it is and a man educated at Yale and Harvard should of been been smart enough to figure that out.

Those regular Americans turned on their tv's and saw a American city being flooded, absolute chaos going on, dead bodies in the street, and a POTUS and a Fed government no where to be found. When the second day of the disaster was going on and Bush was seen at that political rally/gathering, laughing and playing air guitar with CW singer Mark Wills, a lot of people were angered. That was a political and public relations disaster and went over like a fart in church with a good chunk of the American public. I bet a lot of Americans didn't know who Blanco and Nagin were before that disaster, but they sure knew who their President was. To put it simply, if he would have been on the scene way earlier in N.O, like he is in California, instead of that gathering, this thread and the debate within in it, wouldn't exist. It's that simple, it really is. Him and staff dropped the ball, big time, and he has to accept that it's now part of his legacy.
 
WTH, this was part of the point I was trying to make on the conservative thread about the silent, non political majority in this country. You're bringing up some good points, but in the end and years from now, the American public won't recognize or remember Blanco or Nagin. They will recognise and remember GWB and what he did and didn't do in that crisis. There's a group of people in this great country of ours who don't look at things through their political viewpoints. Right and wrong, fair and unfair don't come into the picture. They see the POTUS as the man in charge, a leader, and look at him similar as some do a Pro football coach. The coach gets too much of the credit when things are going good and too much of blame when things are going bad. It just the way it is and a man educated at Yale and Harvard should of been been smart enough to figure that out.

Those regular Americans turned on their tv's and saw a American city being flooded, absolute chaos going on, dead bodies in the street, and a POTUS and a Fed government no where to be found. When the second day of the disaster was going on and Bush was seen at that political rally/gathering, laughing and playing air guitar with CW singer Mark Wills, a lot of people were angered. That was a political and public relations disaster and went over like a fart in church with a good chunk of the American public. I bet a lot of Americans didn't know who Blanco and Nagin were before that disaster, but they sure knew who their President was. To put it simply, if he would have been on the scene way earlier in N.O, like he is in California, instead of that gathering, this thread and the debate within in it, wouldn't exist. It's that simple, it really is. Him and staff dropped the ball, big time, and he has to accept that it's now part of his legacy.
Actually, I don't think the historians will look at it the same way as we do now. I would anticipate lots and lots of papers of "How CNN blew it", etc. They will look at the angle of this being the first hurricane of this magnatude getting 24 hour news coverage and if that hurt or helped the people, if it hurt or helped the rest of the country watching it.

The further it gets from the event, the more we have to look to the facts rather than what we "feel" happened. After 2 years, we have distanced ourselves far enough away that a few more people are able to look at it and see "you know, maybe it wasn't all Bush's fault, maybe Blanco did have more to do with it". By the time history looks at it, it will be pure fact vs. the emotional fiction that was created by the 24 hour coverage.

I think they will come to the same conclusions you and I did - Bush should have provided more leadership, he shouldn't have gone off like he did as if everything was normal.
 
and Bush decided to allow all those people to die because he never ever breaks the law and he didn't want to offend the governor? Is that what you believe?

Come on, no one can be this naive. No one, be it Democrat or Republican (including Bush) could go in without NOLA's permission, even when the federal government was begging the state to allow them to help.
 
Yanno, sooner or later, one's character comes through. And this says everything you need to know about Bush's character:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/10/26/bush-takes-shot-at-katrin_n_69972.html

People are losing everything, have lost everything, 500,000 people are still displaced from Katrina, and this sack of **** has to take a petty pot shot at Kathleen Blanco.

You truly can't make this stuff up. But the "24%" will lap it up.

This was cleverly worded to drive the opposition absolutely bonkers. Pres. Bush simply displays a garment yet the press and the "percentile-mongers" ( hey new word), exclaim it "pret a porte".

Priceless (and by that I mean really ironical funny type stuff).....
 
It really is funny when you start boiling the argument down to it's essence.

In fact, it's downright hilarious. :lmao:

And I'm still trying to figure out how an out-of-touch governor, a hysterical mayor, and misspent money somehow justify:

1) Bush's attending John McCain's birthday party,

2) playing air guitar with a C&W personality,

3) flying over the devastation

4) and then telling the one who was in charge ON THE GROUND "You're doing a heckuva job, Brownie".

And this was after 4 days of watching the tragedy unfold.

The justification dance boggles my mind, but frankly, it doesn't come as any great surprise.
Thats just it. We aren't trying to justify it. Those are the things he did wrong. But what is truly mind boggling is how these transgressions make him responsible for the Governor not calling in her troops, for the Governor not allowing in supplies, for the Governor not askign for federal help until it was too late.
 
Thats just it. We aren't trying to justify it. Those are the things he did wrong. But what is truly mind boggling is how these transgressions make him responsible for the Governor not calling in her troops, for the Governor not allowing in supplies, for the Governor not askign for federal help until it was too late.

IS someone saying he is responsible for the governors actions? Thegovernor is responsible for the governors actions.
\
 
IS someone saying he is responsible for the governors actions? Thegovernor is responsible for the governors actions.
\
Lets see. He has been accused of:

- not sending in ground troops (they belong to the governor)
- not sending in water, supplies (again, they would be coordinated through the ground troops provided by the governor)
- sending suppliles away (the state emergency management was in charge of that and sent them away)

What else? There was also this post "But once NOLA was submerged - and we watched it on TV....it was obvious literally and figuratively the problem was over their heads". Again, for the federal government to move in without being asked is against the law, she had to ask. Yet Bush gets blamed because the governor did not ask. How is that not making him responsible for the governors actions?
 
Good post and link. Pretty much "book-ends" this thread AFAIAC.

BTW, that is one seriously deranged looking clown avatar......... It's staring at me.......
It stares at everyone. Just don't stare back and you won't be hypnotized....
 
Sorry, but I have to say that you are wrong in this circumstance. The federal government (Bush or anyone one else including the democratic majority leader) could not go in without the permission of the state.

Unfortunately Bianco was receiving advise from her advisors telling her to not vacate her control over the situation because of political ramifications.

Okay, I kinda figured I was, I just wanted to put that out there just incase. Like I said, I heard it from a conspiracy nut so I took it with a grain of salt!
 
I thought this was strange! What isn't anymore!:confused3 Thought I post it here.

FEMA workers masquerade as reporters
Employees asked questions at last minute California wildfire briefing


WASHINGTON - The White House scolded the Federal Emergency Management Agency on Friday for staging a phony news conference about assistance to victims of wildfires in southern California.

The agency — much maligned for its sluggish response to Hurricane Katrina over two years ago — arranged to have FEMA employees play the part of independent reporters Tuesday and ask questions of Vice Adm. Harvey E. Johnson, the agency’s deputy director

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21490838/
 
This was cleverly worded to drive the opposition absolutely bonkers. Pres. Bush simply displays a garment yet the press and the "percentile-mongers" ( hey new word), exclaim it "pret a porte".

Priceless (and by that I mean really ironical funny type stuff).....

And given the magnitude of what happened in NO, completely classless.
 
Thats just it. We aren't trying to justify it. Those are the things he did wrong. But what is truly mind boggling is how these transgressions make him responsible for the Governor not calling in her troops, for the Governor not allowing in supplies, for the Governor not askign for federal help until it was too late.

Please point out where anyone said Bush was responsible for the mistakes made by Blanco and Nagin. Take your time.

And if you aren't trying to justify Bush's actions, just what are you doing?

Btw, keep dreaming that history is going to be kind to George Bush.
 
Please point out where anyone said Bush was responsible for the mistakes made by Blanco and Nagin. Take your time.
Challenge accepted (I really need to get a life :lmao: )

The fact that evacuees had no drinking water ( Katrina) for 5 days and many died due to dehydration in the USA is what disturbs me the most..Dehydration causes a myriad of mental and physical problems, not the least of which is death. The other thing that I can't accept is the fact people's loved ones rotted for more then a year in their attics.
There is enough blame to go around...the victims, some who could have evacuated but didn't, the local officials and the state officials.
The prize still goes to "Heck of a job Brownie"...drum roll please, our commander and chief, the decider, George W Bush.

Yep. That's it. Carry all your belongings, your babies AND 5 gallons of water to the Superdome..Shame on them! After all ,the government can drop supplies in Iraq, but can't get water to NO..Thank God they figured a way to get water to CA to put out the fires.
Someone lost their job due to the absolute incompetence at FEMA. But it was the victims fault. I saw those dead people sitting rotting in their wheelchairs..Damn, they could have carried dozens of jugs of water.
Think before you post something so ignorant.

I answered this already..Those in a position to, should have evacuated. There were thousands who were not in any position to do so for a variety of reasons..Go back and read the posts. Painting them all as welfare taking, gang banging, rapist hiding in bathrooms, is a little insensitive, don't you think? How about the people in the hospitals that were euthanized for God's sake. How can you, for a minute, excuse the inabilty of FEMA to get water to people for 5 days? There is no excuse.

No one said she didn't get help quickly. It was said though that these people who stayed brought this on themselves. I can see this woman carrying 5 gallons of water to the Superdome, right? She'd be dead. Good thing she wasn't able to evacuate.

There is blame to go around , as I have said many times. However, too many refuse to place any blame on the place the "buck stops". The decider, George Walker Bush.

It was one of the most embarrassing events of his presidency.

That's funny but the "24%" have no problem giving Bush carte blanch to torture, invade countries, and wiretap, but then have a real problem when it comes to helping victims of a natural disaster. And that's what this is all about and it's coming through loud and clear.

And lest we forget, Bush was told that the levees had been topped on the Monday morning when Katrina hit.

The other problems (there were dozens) included the Superdome being indoors......in 95 degrees....in 99% humidity....& alot of the people were NOT AT the Superdome. Supplies & relief didn't get to the CONVENTION CENTER (which was miles away) for several days......because the relief agencies, the feds & many of the news reporters DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THEY WERE THERE.

People pay money to sit outside at Qualcomm on a breezy day......but the Superdome & the Convention Center & the rest of center city NO on Labor Day of '05 was hell.

(cute puppy in SD, btw.)

I really don't give a hoot who the numbnuts are that screwed up in Lousiana. I understand there were major screw ups. Seriously I do. THere were also individuals that should have evacuated - many did not have the resources to, others were numbnuts as well. I grant you all that. I really do.They all on a state, local, and individual level should be held accountable. I get that.

But there is now way that in this country that those folks should have been waiting for that long to get basic needs sent to them. We watched it all on the news. That was DISGUSTING!!!! Our federal government officuals had access to the same crap we were waching on CNN, FOX, MSNBC, etc. Why did their HOLY CRAP radar take so long to mobilize even basic aid????

Pardon me while I vomit.

you are telling me,that it was a technical error? Again, that a numbnuts governor doesn't make a call and no aid can get sent???You are saying that as all of us watch bodies floating away on CNN, FOX, etc.....our federal government can't say "we are ready, what doyou need".

Again, I get it- local and state SCREWED UP!!!!!!Individuals who should have evacuated SCREWED UP. I agree, the call should have been made. Again, I get it, I understand. I really do. But if you say they the feds can't to ascertain need....I will just shake my head.:sad2: Believe me, I am just as pissed at the individual, state, and local response . But that does not diminish my disgust for the federal response.

There is enough blame to go around.

We've come full circle to the "technicality" argument. So when the call didn't come and we were seeing what we were seeing live on our tv's, Bush had no obligation to make the call to Blanco and say "Kathleen, we need to talk"? Is that it?

A real leader would've taken the lead and made the call himself. It didn't happen and that is where Bush made his mistake.

And, NO, he is not my president as he never intended to be my president.

and Bush decided to allow all those people to die because he never ever breaks the law and he didn't want to offend the governor? Is that what you believe?

I think this dumb president already has given himself these powers. He is the decider.
If he turned on CNN he would know it wasn't a case of "someone passed out" and gotten those troops in ASAP!

And if you aren't trying to justify Bush's actions, just what are you doing?

Btw, keep dreaming that history is going to be kind to George Bush.
I'm trying to point out that he doesn't deserve the lions share of the blame. He doesn't deserve the majority of the blame. Many of the things he has been blamed for by the press, by the Democrats, are things that were not his fault or his responsibility.

Like your last sentance. That is a 24% sentance, all or nothing. In general, I believe you are right, George Bush is going to end up as one of the worst presidents in our history, as poor as Carter (although I don't think he will be listed as worst than Carter, inside information on that). However, in the case of Katrina, history will be very kind in my opinion. The quotes I listed were from 3 people on this thread - but go to the threads from the Hurricane Katrina area and there will be 100's (ok, maybe 10's, but the majority of posters) who were pissed at the inaction of the federal government. When I pointed out then that it wasn't his responsibility, that he didn't have the authority I was brushed off as being one of the 39% at that time.

His leadership sucked at that time. His political savvy was childish and moronic. But it wasn't the federal government's responsibility to get the water/supplies to the people. It wasn't the federal governments responsibility to put troops on the ground. It wasn't the federal governments responsibility to coordinate supplies coming in. That was then and still is the jurisdiction of the state government, and that is where it should be.
 


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