Difference between the fires and Katrina

[Mr Man]

I sat quietly and read this thread. But I can't stay quiet anymore.

SoCal is not a wealthy area. Yes, housing costs a small fortune, yes salaries are more (to compensate for the cost of living) but aside from the celebrities affected in Malibu most of the people being evacuated and otherwise affected are hard working people "average income" people.

We may be "better off" then NOLA but I am sick and tired of people saying we are getting more help because the people have more money. The fact of the matter is this: We have been through this more times then I'd like to remember. Most recently we went through this in 2003. We know what we are doing. We are not to proud to accept help when offered and ask for help when we need it. Our government pulls together and does what needs to be done to make sure the state maintains and the citizens are taken care of.

But we are low on resources. Our firefighters are exhausted, hungry and need more help at every fire. They have had to abandon posts and let homes burn because it got to dangerous. We need more water dropping planes and helicopters. There are close to 20 large fires burning throughout most of Southern California. The air quality sucks. We're scared for our families and our friends. We're scared for our wildlife.

So please, stop assuming that we are all rich Hollywood stereotypes. That we're all "rockstars" and that we take baths in money. Because most of us are hard working people just trying to do our best to support ourselves and our families.

This is a fair comment. I agree and do apologize if my previous post offended you. What I should have said was SoCal has a higher tax base than the areas affected by Katrina (much higher actually). Meaning, more resource $ per citizen. That is all.

I wasn't looking at it from a socio-economic POV. I lived in Anaheim Hills for a while in my youth. We were not rich.

Regards,

 

[Charade]

I am not against being prepared, nor do I think I'm defending it. Far from it. I would love to have a well stocked emergency pantry with a few months of food, tents, batteries, generators, etc. but I simply do not have the room or spare funds to accomplish this. Yes, everybody should have a working flashlight with fresh batteries, a bag of trail mix, a few bottles of water, pet carriers and food (if applicable), and a blanket, all at the ready. And I agree, a lot don't. But even with these things, the people of NO were overwhelmed and it wouldn't have helped them one bit. The authorities HAVE to be ready to swoop in if need be. It shouldn't all be on the citizen's shoulders. It should be a joint effort, well prepared for and well rehearsed with ALL the rules spelled out and/or debated, ahead of time.

The problem is many people (even those with the means) have come to rely on the government to help them in times of emergency. I don't think we should. There's only a small percentage of people that have no other choice. Those are the ones that should get help *first*.

 

[bsnyder]

I wasn't aware his team tried to spin it. My mistake. The man is a sad excuse for a leader.

My attic remark was made because I doubt anybody would keep supplies in an attic unless they intended to end up there. Not many folks in hurricane country expects to end up in their attic unless you are right on the coast and might get caught in a sea surge. I truly believe those 9th ward folks had no reason to believe their levees would not hold. They were told time and time again by all three sets of officials (local, state, feds) they would hold up. If they had no reason to think they would end up in their attics that morning, they obviously wouldn't stock up there.

I agree that for most people living in hurricane prone areas, that the attic scenario is unlikely except in the case of severe storm surge. However, in the particular case of New Orleans, this just doesn't apply. I read articles for years about the "bowl" that is the city of New Orleans filling up.

Sorry if I offended you with the other comment. It was unnecessarily sarcastic, and I apololgize.

 

["Got Disney"]

I sat quietly and read this thread. But I can't stay quiet anymore.

SoCal is not a wealthy area. Yes, housing costs a small fortune, yes salaries are more (to compensate for the cost of living) but aside from the celebrities affected in Malibu most of the people being evacuated and otherwise affected are hard working people "average income" people.

We may be "better off" then NOLA but I am sick and tired of people saying we are getting more help because the people have more money. The fact of the matter is this: We have been through this more times then I'd like to remember. Most recently we went through this in 2003. We know what we are doing. We are not to proud to accept help when offered and ask for help when we need it. Our government pulls together and does what needs to be done to make sure the state maintains and the citizens are taken care of.

But we are low on resources. Our firefighters are exhausted, hungry and need more help at every fire. They have had to abandon posts and let homes burn because it got to dangerous. We need more water dropping planes and helicopters. There are close to 20 large fires burning throughout most of Southern California. The air quality sucks. We're scared for our families and our friends. We're scared for our wildlife.

So please, stop assuming that we are all rich Hollywood stereotypes. That we're all "rockstars" and that we take baths in money. Because most of us are hard working people just trying to do our best to support ourselves and our families.

I stated almost the same thing about how people here are assuming....a few pages back. People in the US could learn a few things from SanDiegans....we have hade unbelievable amout of support from each other with
donations, volunteers and so on. we are all helping each other and Drs and nurses and vets and many other proffesionals are all donating there time.

places are overflowing from donations from across our county. People are being told to stop bringing here and bring there.

To the person that made a comment about being evacuated to Qualcome stadium...they are well organized there and they have more food and beds and medical staff than you can imagine...not from the government but from caring SanDiegans.

And believe me if all us volunteers were aloud to go out and help with the fires we would be there holding the hoses to save someones house that we dont even know.

When it comes to volunteering and donations...SanDiego ROCKS!!!!

 

[Charade]

California= Fire
Katrina= Water

California= Wealthy, lots of resources.
Katrina areas= not so much

California govt (state/local)= look to be pretty well prepared
Katrina= Well, they gave it a shot.....

That's a fair difference. Virtual opposites.

It probably would be easier to list what is similar between the two events.

You forgot one other major difference. The people.

 

[LakeAriel]

Where do you get that from?

I don't know Maybe these posts?

Witness all the folks who show up at an evacuation shelter and bring nothing with them, or even worse, refuse to evacuate and then expect "the cavalary" to rescue them when the situation gets out of hand.

I haven't heard any reports of people shooting at helicopters trying to rescue people in California either. Everyone wants to blame the "officials" in NO or the federal government but keep in mind, many, many, many people REFUSED to leave NO causing their own problems. Also, those that didn't take water with them to evacuation sites, people are told over and over and over again to have enough water on hand, etc. Heck, Florida gives you tax free days to buy all the disaster stuff you need. I live in MN and I can tell you want to put in a hurricane box for a disaster. The information is EVERYWHERE. For those that were not prepared, shame on them.
Yes, there were elderly that are not very mobile but many of them refused to get on the buses that were provided as well. Yes, the whole thing could have been handled better in NO. In California I would have to say that people on the whole are better educated and have taken responsibility for looking after themselves first to give the responders TIME to get to them. These things don't just magically appear overnight.

..
The people that you saw on TV were mostly very uneducated, poor, and probably on welfare. They don't think about what they can do for themselves, they think about what other people SHOULD do for them. Did you notice all the strong and completely capable young men who were left behind??? Did you see them helping others??? NO. You saw them looting, and were they stealing food? Sometimes, but mostly they were going after tennis shoes, and breaking into people's homes. I know this b/c my uncles and most of their friends stayed behind, and they literally had to PATROL the streets.
Look at all the people in shelters in CA. Are they hiding out in bathrooms to rape children?? Are they trashing the place? Are they shooting the National Guard? Are they shooting each other? NO. Are they screaming, why aren't YOU helping me? No, they are helping themselves and each other. You CANNOT compare these two places. The people, completely irrevolent of race, are completely different. Things happened the way they did in NO b/c, as everyone who lives there knows, the whole govt is completely corrupt and incompetent. The shelters, red cross, and state and local charities, did not have enough supplies b/c they were not receiving the funding and donations they needed to do so. That's what happens when your city has more people on welfare, TAKING from the system, than they do, GIVING to the system by paying taxes and giving to charity. The people who had sense, (black, white, brown, red & yellow), prepared themselves and got the heck outta dodge. The ones who didn't, (black, white, brown, red & yellow), stayed and said you can't tell me what to do. Then, b/c a majority of the people left behind were black, they pulled the race card, and the real issues got swept under the rug.

And until you have lived there, amongst that particular culture, you won't. I don't mean to be mean, or say I wasn't compassionate. I actually cried a few times, but people really DON'T understand that the people they saw on the TV in those days, in any normal circumstance, they were the drug dealers, murderers, prostitutes...and the people who supported them. Not ALL of them, but A LOT, of them. Those were the people who would follow you through the French Quarter and beat you to a pulp for the $5 in your pocket. They are the ones who make it unsafe for cops and ambulances to safely travel through the ninth ward and other such neighborhoods. Do you honestly think that these were normal, everyday, hard working Americans that were shooting at the National Guard and raping children in the Superdome, just b/c they were under a lot of stress??? That is why we don't have as much compassion for them as we do for the CA fire evacuees.

Those are the ones I cried for. It KILLED me to see that gilr holding the baby on the news and they kept trying to keep him from passing out. It literally tore my heart apart, b/c I kept thinking about what I would do in that situation. I very quickly had to remind myself, that I would probably never be in that situation, b/c i would have gotten my butt outta there. That's when I got mad at the mom for being so stupid. She was young, had two legs, and she could walk....why the He** didn't she take care of her baby and get outta there, or atleast have supplies on hand b/c of the possibility that that might happen. I also got MAD at all the "men" and I use that term loosely who were running around looting and shooting while their parents and grandparents were dying. Those same parents and grandparents had their homes used as hangout spots for all the drug dealers, and were trashed by all the "hanging out" in their front yards. SO, yes, I was very sad for them, but I was just as mad for them.

It's sad, but that would have never happened in LA. Most people would be too scared for their lives to drive in there, and of those that did, I'm sure many of them would have been jumped and their donations looted before they reached their destination.....:sad1:

 

[Charade]

How long do you think water and supplies would last, stored in a boiling hot New Orleans attic?

Obviously they wouldn't last long. I keep hearing excuse after excuse why the people (those that *could* ) couldn't be prepared. If you've got only minutes to scramble to your attic (even though you had *DAYS* notice to get out), you should have a supply kit right there near the stairs.

 

[bsnyder]

The problem is many people (even those with the means) have come to rely on the government to help them in times of emergency. I don't think we should. There's only a small percentage of people that have no other choice. Those are the ones that should get help *first*.

That was a point I was trying to make earlier. We have limited resources. Discouraging self-reliant behavior by those who have the means and are able-bodied ends up hurting the most vulnerable among us.

I don't think we need to "force" people to evacuate, or pass laws that they must have 3-5 days emergency supplies on hand. But changing this basic mind-set of our society could make a huge difference. The hand-wringing, finger-pointing sob stories the media loves so much in our 24/7 saturation disaster news coverage doesn't help matters. Instead of preying on our sympathy, maybe a few stories highlighting the selfishness of such irresponsible behavior would be in order...

 

[Mr Man]

I don't know Maybe these posts?

I do not see anything objectionable. It's like John Wayne said:

"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid".

We ignore this at our own peril.

 

[Charade]

I don't know Maybe these posts?

IMO, that's not a lack of compassion, it's reality. Many people expect the government to be the first level support in times of emergencies. That's YOUR responsibility. The government is second in line.

How do you feel about people who had the means to be prepared or evacuate but didn't?

I don't wish anyone harm or suffering because they were or were not able to be prepared for an emergency.

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I'm going to type out a few parts of an article in one of my back issues of National Geographic magazine.........

"It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, .......... Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.
But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. AS the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however- the car less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.
The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Ponchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80% of New Orleans lies below sea level-more than eight feet below in some places- so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth ward......until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon St. like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.
Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.
When did this calamity happen? It hasn't-yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far fetched. The [FEMA] lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California, or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers too great."

- written by Joel K. Bourne, Jr., OCTOBER 2004 issue of National Geographic

They had plenty of warning......they just refused to act on it.

 

[Mr Man]

You forgot one other major difference. The people.

Well, it all depends if we are talking NO or all of the Katrina affected area. If NO only, yes big difference from CA. This place has a tragic history for it's poor, yet is also home to some of the most genteel people I have ever met anywhere. An unreal contrast I admit.

All of Katrina area, not as much difference as one would think IMO. That is, unless the old canards that all Southern folk are rednecks or po' dark people still hold sway in people's minds....... (nor do I believe right-minded people think this-good god don't prove me wrong....).

I could tell stories to fill this board about what I saw people do to help after Katrina (from wildly varying backgrounds no less). Unfortunately, I do not have time to do this, nor do I see it making a bit of difference on this board. Lots of "hardened hearts" here.......

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

I am north of Otay. Other than ash falling like snow and poor air quality, no structures affected yet. Though we were out all afternoon.

One can't forget to note that the disasters are pretty much the exact opposite from each other.

With a fire, you use water to put it out, with other fires to try to stop it, etc. With drastic storms and a flood, you....can't do all that much.


OK, going back to refreshing the google map that shows the Harris fire, so I can see if my brother's house west of Otay reservoir is destroyed yet. They've been out for 24 hours (along with their kitties) when they got the call for *voluntary* evacuation, which gives me the luxury to worry about their "stuff".

 

[Princess_Michelle]

IMO, that's not a lack of compassion, it's reality. Many people expect the government to be the first level support in times of emergencies. That's YOUR responsibility. The government is second in line.

How do you feel about people who had the means to be prepared or evacuate but didn't?

I don't wish anyone harm or suffering because they were or were not able to be prepared for an emergency.

Thank You. I can't turn a blind eye on the facts of real life just to try and be PC, or to seem compassionate. I had lots of compassion, hello, did you read the article I posted ABOUT MY OWN UNCLE WHO LOST HIS HOUSE.

Sometimes I feel so much stinkin' compassion for people around the world that my heart just aches. I sponsor one child and one women's clinic through, ironically, Compassion International, and it HURTS that I can't do more to end the suffering in this world....

But I'm not stupid either. As much compassion as I feel for a homeless crack addict, I wouldn't take them into my home, b/c chances are they would rob and/or kill me and my family just to get enough money for a hit.
I can feel compassion for the child soldiers in Africa and the Middle East, and want to run to them and hug them and offer them a new life in America and a trip to Disney World and all that bleeding heart crap, but chances are, they'd gun me down the moment they laid eyes on my goofy American butt.

I feel compassion for the people in California, that's why I e-mailed the several Army buddies that I know live there, to offer support/prayers/money/shelter, whatever. It's why I plan on making a few donations to the Red Cross and maybe to some local Fire Houses. I don't LACK compassion, I just have equal doses of compassion and reality.

 

[WebmasterMaryJo]

As stated earlier in the thread, we had huge fires in 2003, and though there was a great effort to fight them, it wasn't enough, and the communication was lacking. There was a lot of criticism on how that catastophe was handled.

The powers that be listened to the criticism, and this time have been more prepared. There was a Governor's Conference in Long Beach today hosted by Maria Shriver, and Arnold Shwarzenegger was supposed to be there. Instead there was a live feed from whatever fire he was at, and he was talking about how hard the fire fighters were working, and about the people, evacuations, etc., and everything they had to do do be prepared for people who needed things. Details like toilet paper, medical supplies, dialysis, etc., and how he was talking to other governors to get their help, also for the fire fighters who were exhausted. So many details. So many people who needed help. So many people who were coming forward. At the conference today, they changed the speakers, and the Red Cross came to make a plea for donations, for blood, and for money. Very proactive. So, Californians have learned from our mistakes, and have tried to make things better. I'm sure that after this is over there will be another lessons learned to do a better job, get planes here faster, get more relief for our fire fighters.

The problem is many people (even those with the means) have come to rely on the government to help them in times of emergency. I don't think we should. There's only a small percentage of people that have no other choice. Those are the ones that should get help *first*.

I agree.

 

[ExPirateShopGirl]

Southern California is home to a diverse population. While I agree with those that say we are not all wealthy, I temper that with the caveat that there are few areas near the southern california coast with the kind of abject poverty seen in NO. While our per capita income is higher than the national average, the cost of living here keeps us from enjoying a good percentage of that as disposable income.

Southern California cities also lack geographically convenient downtown areas. More often, our cities and counties are comprised of communities that abut one another and cover large areas. For this reason, most californians (i.e., working adults) own cars.

Not one single community directly affected in San Diego has the poverty or crime level of pre-katrina areas of NO. As far reaching as the fires are, there are more people whose homes aren't affected. They have been a wealth of compassion and generosity.

All that being said... it sure it nice to be home again tonight... and not have to set my alarm every hour.

Yesterday morning

​

Last night

This morning

 

[cats mom]

Things are certainly better in CA than they were in New Orleans.

That said, there are plenty of problems here as well and I'm sure there will be more lessons to be learned after the fact.

Do a search for interviews by Orange County Fire Authority Chief Chip Prather and/or Assemblyman Todd Spitzer (R-Orange)
They've both been very outspoken about having serious concerns with the way resources are being allocated.
There were also apparently recommendations made (after the 2003 fires I believe) that they contend have been largely ignored by both state and federal government and that could have made a huge difference had they been implemented in advance.

So while there are some positive things happening now, I'm sure there will still be plenty of blame to go around in the days and weeks to come.

 

["Got Disney"]

Southern California is home to a diverse population. While I agree with those that say we are not all wealthy, I temper that with the caveat that there are few areas near the southern california coast with the kind of abject poverty seen in NO. While our per capita income is higher than the national average, the cost of living here keeps us from enjoying a good percentage of that as disposable income.

Southern California cities also lack geographically convenient downtown areas. More often, our cities and counties are comprised of communities that abut one another and cover large areas. For this reason, most californians (i.e., working adults) own cars.

Not one single community directly affected in San Diego has the poverty or crime level of pre-katrina areas of NO. As far reaching as the fires are, there are more people whose homes aren't affected. They have been a wealth of compassion and generosity.

All that being said... it sure it nice to be home again tonight... and not have to set my alarm every hour.

Yesterday morning

Last night

This morning

Where is this at???? what area? Glad to here you are back in your home. I am watching the Harris fire out my bedroom window right know as it heads into Rancho SanDiego/Steel canyon High School.

They are setting backfires with flares in hopes of stoping it from heading down and crossing the 94.

 

[JPN4265]

Is there a difference in the response to Californians vs. the response to Katrina victims?

Is it a federal level difference. Is it a state difference? Different because they are two different catastrophies? Difference because of lessons learned? No difference?

Yes, its called EXPERIENCE! The problems we had with Katrina had never happened before. You tend to learn from experience. No matter what some of the anti Bush people will try and tell you on this web site. To bad stupidity is not against the law.

 

[golfgal]

I don't know Maybe these posts?

It is not lack of compassion like others have said. You can't expect the government to be there seconds after a natural disaster hits and bail you out immediately. It just isn't physically possible. For those that evacuated to shelters without taking basic supplies, again, shame on them. It isn't the governments fault they failed to prepare. The government can only do so much. People that were in shelters without water for 5 days, why didn't they bring water with them. A gallon of water at the store costs a DOLLAR. For 5 dollars they could have had water for 5 days.