Difference between the fires and Katrina

[eclectics]

When I was in the fires of 2003, I had plans to take my pets with me.. It never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be allowed too. I wonder if people in NO were aware that they couldn't take their pets until the last minute

I'm sure they had no idea. Most had no vehicle to flee the city. I can't begin to figure out what sort of plan they should have had in place. I'm sure they assumed they wouldn't be forced to make the decision whether or not to leave their pets behind to perish.

 

[mickeyfan2]

When I was in the fires of 2003, I had plans to take my pets with me.. It never crossed my mind that I wouldn't be allowed too. I wonder if people in NO were aware that they couldn't take their pets until the last minute

Were you planning to go to a shelter? If not, then I would expect to take my pet with me.

 

[NotUrsula]

New Orleans was warned about what MIGHT happen in a worst case scenario, but it was not something that most had really witnessed in their lifetime. It's also hard to really understand how much damage a hurricane can do, and how helpless you are, unless you've experienced one. It's hard to take warnings seriously enough when you have no frame of reference.

Not really. I'm 45, and I remember what Betsy did in 1965 quite clearly. (I also rode out Camille in Mississippi.) The people who didn't leave this time were mostly elderly and poor; they remembered well enough but they didn't have the wherewithal to leave. The difference is that while the storm surge in Ponchartrain overtopped the levee in Betsy, the levee did not fail. The levees had never failed, not since they were built. (They were dynamited in 1928, but that's another issue, and did not affect New Orleans.) New Orleans came through Katrina itself just fine, it was the levee failure that was the disaster, and that was entirely man-made.

Honestly, I've read the warnings that they are giving out in California, and they keep saying things like "pack your car and prepare to leave at any moment" -- I haven't seen any instructions for people who don't have cars. They must have a plan for them, right? Special buses? National Guard trucks? How are they evacuating those people?

What a lot of people don't realize about the Nagin's decision not to use buses to evacuate New Orleans was that they knew that the city didn't have money for enough gas to get them back. They were stalling while they tried to figure out how they would pay for it. Not very noble, but there it is. Louisiana (the state itself) is poor and politically weak, and California quite simply isn't.

 

[LakeAriel]

Such as what? What sort of Utopia are you envisioning that gives someone prior time and the ability to first move their pets out of harm's way and then return back? Are you forgetting the government's acknowledgement that by forbiding pets, many people refused to evacuate in New Orleans? Whether we think it's right or wrong, it's a fact that a lot of people won't leave their pets. And as for California, they ARE allowing pets in the major evacuation centers. They learned from Katrina.

You get a five minute warning to evacuate and you call the Vet and make arrangements to drop the animal off before you head to the shelter...

I couldn't leave my pets either.

 

[eclectics]

What a lot of people don't realize about the Nagin's decision not to use buses to evacuate New Orleans was that they knew that the city didn't have money for enough gas to get them back. They were stalling while they tried to figure out how they would pay for it. Not very noble, but there it is. Louisiana (the state itself) is poor and politically weak, and California quite simply isn't.

Sorry, when it comes to saving lives, you just do it and worry about the money later. That shouldn't have even been an issue. Nagin handled his city's hour of need stupidly and ineffectively, to say the least. Sadly, the state and federal authorities followed suit.

 

[NotUrsula]

... and you call the Vet and make arrangements

These are people who depended on buses to get around. *If* they ever used vets (and that's a really big if, you understand), the vet would have to be close enough to walk to. If the neighborhood is being evacuated, the vet's buggin' out, too. The reality in New Orleans is that those were mostly animals that did not have shots or licenses.

And about the fuel for the buses: if the hurricane had changed direction at the last minute and not hit New Orleans, no one would have given the city any money to get those buses returned. The gas in the car barn tanks was all that the city had for the last 6 months of the year, and they had no money and no credit to get more. I'm not saying that Nagin was any kind of saint, or even very smart, but you can't get blood out of a turnip. It's easy to say in hindsight that they should have done what they had to to save lives, but the truth is that no one knew at the time that many lives were actually going to be in immediate danger. They were working on premise of evacuating for a hurricane, not a catastrophic flood. The two scenarios are NOT usually synonymous.

 

[Miss Jasmine]

Such as what? What sort of Utopia are you envisioning that gives someone prior time and the ability to first move their pets out of harm's way and then return back? Are you forgetting the government's acknowledgement that by forbiding pets, many people refused to evacuate in New Orleans? Whether we think it's right or wrong, it's a fact that a lot of people won't leave their pets. And as for California, they ARE allowing pets in the major evacuation centers. They learned from Katrina.

Well I think in this day and age we have been warned about having a disaster plan. Whether the disaster be caused by nature or otherwise. I have a cat and an evacuation plan (actually a couple of plans). I would never leave my cat behind! I have an emergency kit ready to grab in a moments notice with all our important papers and a CD with pictures of all of our possessions. There is also food, water, batteries, flashlights, first aid kit, air mattress , etc. Sure I live in a place that can be affected by hurricanes, and I admit to not being prepared as much as I should have been prior to 2004. I learned my lesson. So, yes some people need to live through it to get motiviated. Others can learn by the experiences of other people.

But I am at an advantage, I have money, I have a vehicle. I can't imagine being trapped with no way out. That actually makes me sick to my stomach to think of being stuck.

 

[LakeAriel]

These are people who depended on buses to get around. *If* they ever used vets (and that's a really big if, you understand), the vet would have to be close enough to walk to. If the neighborhood is being evacuated, the vet's buggin' out, too. The reality in New Orleans is that those were mostly animals that did not have shots or licenses.

I was being facetious, I'm sorry. I know there is no way those people could get their pets out of harms way..They couldn't get themselves out of harms way...

 

["Got Disney"]

Of course there's a difference. Many of the homes in CA that have been or will be lost belong to wealthy, influential voters who are also big campaign contributors.

I'm just sayin...

Hate to inform you of this but most of the over 500,000 evacues are not wealthy people....I think the difference is that a misstake was made once and they do not want to repeat it.

There are also over 1,000 homes lost and not to mention all the animals.

Malibu had many million $$$ houses and if you recall they all burned down before any help was offered.

We are living in a sad area right know and many of our friends are living in parking lots, and stadiums, and so on. all the hotels are filled up and hardley any of them take in animals. There are over 5,000 evacues at Qualcome Stadium alone.

So please dont feel like that. We could not even get any planes till they crossed the 'T"s and dotted the "I"s even if we had no winds they would not have been here sooner that today. When they said that on the news the braod caster made a comment to the man that said it witha tone in his voice" Tell that to the people who's houses are buning as you speek, they could care less about T's and I's being crossed." Cant you get them here before that is all done and cut back from the red tape"..

We have had a total of 300 firefighters and that is it fighting our fires. We even have had firefighters from mexico come over and help. The 300 firefighters are going day and night. If we were getting so ,much help why is it that we have had only our own resorses and nothing else till later today....

 

[bsnyder]

Such as what? What sort of Utopia are you envisioning that gives someone prior time and the ability to first move their pets out of harm's way and then return back? Are you forgetting the government's acknowledgement that by forbiding pets, many people refused to evacuate in New Orleans? Whether we think it's right or wrong, it's a fact that a lot of people won't leave their pets. And as for California, they ARE allowing pets in the major evacuation centers. They learned from Katrina.

If they have a pet, they need to find a place that shelters pets. But the time to do it is before a crisis, not when it's actually occuring.

We live in a very hurricane prone area. We're 1/2 a block from the water, so we're in the first evacuation zone for our city. We have gotten evacuation orders during a strong tropical storm, and it's a certainty for a CAT I storm and up. So, we know every summer that we've got a high likelihood of evacuation if a storm is heading to our area. We've arranged (ahead of time ) to shelter in a building where we can bring our dog. It's also the safest place that's closest to our house - another piece of advice from government officials that many people routinely ignore. We won't go to a public shelter, because they don't allow pets.

I think that's great that they are allowing pets in the public shelters in CA. Do they have to be caged, or restrained in some way?

 

[eclectics]

Well I think in this day and age we have been warned about having a disaster plan. Whether the disaster be caused by nature or otherwise. I have a cat and an evacuation plan (actually a couple of plans). I would never leave my cat behind! I have an emergency kit ready to grab in a moments notice with all our important papers and a CD with pictures of all of our possessions. There is also food, water, batteries, flashlights, first aid kit, air mattress , etc. Sure I live in a place that can be affected by hurricanes, and I admit to not being prepared as much as I should have been prior to 2004. I learned my lesson. So, yes some people need to live through it to get motiviated. Others can learn by the experiences of other people.

But I am at an advantage, I have money, I have a vehicle. I can't imagine being trapped with no way out. That actually makes me sick to my stomach to think of being stuck.

That's the kind of preparedness we all should have, but let's face facts, lots of folks can't afford to stockpile all that is neccessary. However, even in the best case scenario, you can drive your car away from the shelter (if they refuse your animals) and still be confronted with clogged roadways slowed to a standstill and totally full motels as far as the eye can see. For some, the shelter is the only option.

 

[golfgal]

I haven't heard any reports of people shooting at helicopters trying to rescue people in California either. Everyone wants to blame the "officials" in NO or the federal government but keep in mind, many, many, many people REFUSED to leave NO causing their own problems. Also, those that didn't take water with them to evacuation sites, people are told over and over and over again to have enough water on hand, etc. Heck, Florida gives you tax free days to buy all the disaster stuff you need. I live in MN and I can tell you want to put in a hurricane box for a disaster. The information is EVERYWHERE. For those that were not prepared, shame on them.

Yes, there were elderly that are not very mobile but many of them refused to get on the buses that were provided as well. Yes, the whole thing could have been handled better in NO. In California I would have to say that people on the whole are better educated and have taken responsibility for looking after themselves first to give the responders TIME to get to them. These things don't just magically appear overnight.

 

[eclectics]

If they have a pet, they need to find a place that shelters pets. But the time to do it is before a crisis, not when it's actually occuring.

We live in a very hurricane prone area. We're 1/2 a block from the water, so we're in the first evacuation zone for our city. We have gotten evacuation orders during a strong tropical storm, and it's a certainty for a CAT I storm and up. So, we know every summer that we've got a high likelihood of evacuation if a storm is heading to our area. We've arranged (ahead of time ) to shelter in a building where we can bring our dog. It's also the safest place that's closest to our house - another piece of advice from government officials that many people routinely ignore. We won't go to a public shelter, because they don't allow pets.

I think that's great that they are allowing pets in the public shelters in CA. Do they have to be caged, or restrained in some way?

I'm glad you are fortunate enough to have the resources to give you peace of mind. Many don't, and that was the point I was trying to make. I don't know what specific arrangements they have in CA. I'm only going by what the reporters have said about people being safe inside the shelters with their pets. Ever since Katrina, this issue has been addressed by whatever local authority the pending disaster has affected. I believe when parts of Florida were evacuated the year after Katrina, they made a point of saying animals will be allowed to be evacuated with their owners. I'm assuming this has been more or less the norm ever since. At least I hope so.

 

[LakeAriel]

I'm glad you are fortunate enough to have the resources to give you peace of mind. Many don't, and that was the point I was trying to make. I don't know what specific arrangements they have in CA. I'm only going by what the reporters have said about people being safe inside the shelters with their pets. Ever since Katrina, this issue has been addressed by whatever local authority the pending disaster has affected. I believe when parts of Florida were evacuated the year after Katrina, they made a point of saying animals will be allowed to be evacuated with their owners. I'm assuming this has been more or less the norm ever since. At least I hope so.

I remember that too. If anyone knows about a policy change etc let us know...
I really don't understand the lack of compassion for the elderly, weak or impoverished in NO..

Everyone here is extremely distressed over what the people in CA are going through..Even recognizing the difference in response ( for whatever reason, probably a little of all suggestions) they are losing their homes, at risk, I can't imagine what is happening to the the wildlife, and the firefighters are in peril. Our thoughts go out to all of them.

 

[bsnyder]

That's the kind of preparedness we all should have, but let's face facts, lots of folks can't afford to stockpile all that is neccessary. However, even in the best case scenario, you can drive your car away from the shelter (if they refuse your animals) and still be confronted with clogged roadways slowed to a standstill and totally full motels as far as the eye can see. For some, the shelter is the only option.

Being unprepared cuts across socio-economic boundaries, since 72% Americans have done little or nothing to prepare for an emergency situation (and that's probably an artificially low number, as some people will be reluctant to admit to not being prepared.). Most people either don't want to take the time or they don't think it will ever happen to them.

I know this isn't your intention, but when you defend this kind of behavior by making excuses for it, you're contributing to the perception that it's okay not to plan.

It's one of my gripes with the Bush Administration (yes, contrary to what you think, I do have them. ). After 9/11 and Katrina, I think the federal, state and local governments should be making much more of an effort at educating the public on the necessity of disaster preparedness, civilian disaster drills, etc.

 

[bsnyder]

I really don't understand the lack of compassion for the elderly, weak or impoverished in NO..

Oh please. For those who truly can't help themselves, I have plenty of compassion, and I put my money and time where my mouth is. But only a very small minority of victims of natural or man-made disasters fall into that category.

If we all, as a society, insist that those who can help themselves do so, we'll have more resources available for those who can't.

 

[eclectics]

Being unprepared cuts across socio-economic boundaries, since 72% Americans have done little or nothing to prepare for an emergency situation (and that's probably an artificially low number, as some people will be reluctant to admit to not being prepared.). Most people either don't want to take the time or they don't think it will ever happen to them.

I know this isn't your intention, but when you defend this kind of behavior by making excuses for it, you're contributing to the perception that it's okay not to plan.

It's one of my gripes with the Bush Administration (yes, contrary to what you think, I do have them. ). After 9/11 and Katrina, I think the federal, state and local governments should be making much more of an effort at educating the public on the necessity of disaster preparedness, civilian disaster drills, etc.

I am not against being prepared, nor do I think I'm defending it. Far from it. I would love to have a well stocked emergency pantry with a few months of food, tents, batteries, generators, etc. but I simply do not have the room or spare funds to accomplish this. Yes, everybody should have a working flashlight with fresh batteries, a bag of trail mix, a few bottles of water, pet carriers and food (if applicable), and a blanket, all at the ready. And I agree, a lot don't. But even with these things, the people of NO were overwhelmed and it wouldn't have helped them one bit. The authorities HAVE to be ready to swoop in if need be. It shouldn't all be on the citizen's shoulders. It should be a joint effort, well prepared for and well rehearsed with ALL the rules spelled out and/or debated, ahead of time.

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I haven't heard any reports of people shooting at helicopters trying to rescue people in California either. Everyone wants to blame the "officials" in NO or the federal government but keep in mind, many, many, many people REFUSED to leave NO causing their own problems. Also, those that didn't take water with them to evacuation sites, people are told over and over and over again to have enough water on hand, etc. Heck, Florida gives you tax free days to buy all the disaster stuff you need. I live in MN and I can tell you want to put in a hurricane box for a disaster. The information is EVERYWHERE. For those that were not prepared, shame on them.

Yes, there were elderly that are not very mobile but many of them refused to get on the buses that were provided as well. Yes, the whole thing could have been handled better in NO. In California I would have to say that people on the whole are better educated and have taken responsibility for looking after themselves first to give the responders TIME to get to them. These things don't just magically appear overnight.

THANK YOU. I was born and bred in Louisiana. All my extended family lives there, and my parents are fixing to move back. And before people make the assumption, NO they are not wealthy. If you have never lived in, or have intimate personal experiences with the culture there, you cannot compare it to the rest of the country. Louisiana is one of the poorest, if not THE poorest, states in the country. The people who were left stayed behind of their own choice OR b/c the people in charge of them didn't care enough to help them. They had plenty of time to get out, I know b/c my family did. Well, My uncles stayed to protect (with guns) their property. Having lived in LA all their lives, they KNEW that the first thing that would happen would be looting and such. Most of them have been through many hurricanes, they knew exactly what they were up against storm wise, although they definitely didn't count on the levees breaking....
The people that you saw on TV were mostly very uneducated, poor, and probably on welfare. They don't think about what they can do for themselves, they think about what other people SHOULD do for them. Did you notice all the strong and completely capable young men who were left behind??? Did you see them helping others??? NO. You saw them looting, and were they stealing food? Sometimes, but mostly they were going after tennis shoes, and breaking into people's homes. I know this b/c my uncles and most of their friends stayed behind, and they literally had to PATROL the streets.
Look at all the people in shelters in CA. Are they hiding out in bathrooms to rape children?? Are they trashing the place? Are they shooting the National Guard? Are they shooting each other? NO. Are they screaming, why aren't YOU helping me? No, they are helping themselves and each other. You CANNOT compare these two places. The people, completely irrevolent of race, are completely different. Things happened the way they did in NO b/c, as everyone who lives there knows, the whole govt is completely corrupt and incompetent. The shelters, red cross, and state and local charities, did not have enough supplies b/c they were not receiving the funding and donations they needed to do so. That's what happens when your city has more people on welfare, TAKING from the system, than they do, GIVING to the system by paying taxes and giving to charity. The people who had sense, (black, white, brown, red & yellow), prepared themselves and got the heck outta dodge. The ones who didn't, (black, white, brown, red & yellow), stayed and said you can't tell me what to do. Then, b/c a majority of the people left behind were black, they pulled the race card, and the real issues got swept under the rug.

My uncle lived in Chalmette and when the water came, he took their five dogs into the attic. Then he used an axe and chopped a hole in the roof. THANK GOD, one of his fishing boats was miraculously floating...he put the dogs and himself in. Then, did he go looting the stores for all he could carry????? NO, he went around and rescued as many as he could from their homes. Here's an article about him and the pets, his name is Eric Colopy.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Sep-08-Thu-2005/news/27171807.html

So, THAT is the difference b/t Katrina and California. Better government, more educated people, and a better economy.

 

[Princess_Michelle]

I really don't understand the lack of compassion for the elderly, weak or impoverished in NO..

And until you have lived there, amongst that particular culture, you won't. I don't mean to be mean, or say I wasn't compassionate. I actually cried a few times, but people really DON'T understand that the people they saw on the TV in those days, in any normal circumstance, they were the drug dealers, murderers, prostitutes...and the people who supported them. Not ALL of them, but A LOT, of them. Those were the people who would follow you through the French Quarter and beat you to a pulp for the $5 in your pocket. They are the ones who make it unsafe for cops and ambulances to safely travel through the ninth ward and other such neighborhoods. Do you honestly think that these were normal, everyday, hard working Americans that were shooting at the National Guard and raping children in the Superdome, just b/c they were under a lot of stress??? Do you honestly think it was just a small portion of those left behind that made the N.O streets like a war zone, despite the efforts of the police and military??? You think it's purely a coincidence the the cities like Houston (and others) who took in the evacuees, experienced a huge SURGE in violent crime???

I'm sorry, there is no PC way to say it, but they weren't, for the most part. That is why we don't have as much compassion for them as we do for the CA fire evacuees.

 

[LakeAriel]

And until you have lived there, amongst that particular culture, you won't. I don't mean to be mean, or say I wasn't compassionate. I actually cried a few times, but people really DON'T understand that the people they saw on the TV in those days, in any normal circumstance, they were the drug dealers, murderers, prostitutes...and the people who supported them. Not ALL of them, but A LOT, of them. Those were the people who would follow you through the French Quarter and beat you to a pulp for the $5 in your pocket. They are the ones who make it unsafe for cops and ambulances to safely travel through the ninth ward and other such neighborhoods. Do you honestly think that these were normal, everyday, hard working Americans that were shooting at the National Guard and raping children in the Superdome, just b/c they were under a lot of stress??? Do you honestly think it was just a small portion of those left behind that made the N.O streets like a war zone, despite the efforts of the police and military??? You think it's purely a coincidence the the cities like Houston (and others) who took in the evacuees, experienced a huge SURGE in violent crime???

I'm sorry, there is no PC way to say it, but they weren't, for the most part. That is why we don't have as much compassion for them as we do for the CA fire evacuees.

I have zero compassion for them either. Don't kid yourself, I am well aware of the criminal element involved, the rioting, the shooting, stabbing etc..You just can't make those not in that profile suffer for them. There were many who were very elderly and babies and they had NO WATER FOR 5 DAYS...and some died as a result. How about them?