Define Commercial renting.

[dumbo71]

Commercial renting is one of the "hot tpics" here on the DIS.

Part of the debate stems from DVC 's unwillingness to clearly DEFINE "comercial" renting. It is my belief that if defined properly by DVC to all members "commercial" renting would be significantly reduced. I believe the vast majority of members follow the rules and would change any "commercial" habits they had.

Lets help DVC out. Please define "comercial renting" from YOUR point of view.

Please no debates or I'll ask the mods to close this down. Feel free to define "commercial" anyway you see fit. If you think ANY renting is commercial then post that. Post without fear of the flames.

Thanks and define away.

 

[salmoneous]

I think a bright line definition was lead to an explosion in commercial renting - as everything up to the line would become unquestionably legal.

As you frequently point out, there really is no harm from commercial renting per se. Problems come from commercial renters abusing the system. I'd much rather see a focus on those abuses than on defining (and banning) commercial renting.

Simple rules such as not allowing for full name-changes on reservation - not allowing more than one concurrent reservation unless registered as a grand-gathering, etc. would eliminate much as the perceived abuses of commercial renting.

 

[Lewisc]

An actual rule, something like 20 rentals, wouldn't really define commercial renting. It really doesn't change much of an owner goes from renting 22 reservations down to 19.

There are different activities that could define commercial activity.

1) Renting points that belong to others, either by having the points transferred into your account or just handling the transactions with the renters and member services. Renting points for $10 a point on DIS and then re-renting those same points on ebay would be an example. Telling members you'll rent their points in exchange for a % of the rental income would also be commercial.

2) I don't know what threshold I'd use but if over a 3 year period a certain % of your points (half maybe) were rented out as opposed to being used by the owner (friends and/or family) I'd say we're looking at commercial activity. Your DVC ownership is being used for income and not for personal vacations.

3) Booking reservations on spec and then selling them on ebay might be considered commerical. That's the kind of activity that a commercial renter would do but a person just looking to rent extra points to defray expenses wouldn't.

4) In this day of cheap websites an rental website doesn't automatically make it commercial but it does start to look like the owner is in the business of renting.

edited to say you don't want debate in this thread. I think Disney has to also consider ease of enforcement with any definition they decide to try to enforce. I think my second definition make the most sense and would probably be the hardest to police. Are you using your points for personal vacations or for income most of the time?

 

[Y-ASK]

I think 20 rentals in one year is too many. Disclaimer: I rent some of my points almost every year to help pay maint. dues. Then again 10 rentals may not be enough if you end up with a bunch of 70 pts. rentals or below. Maybe it should be based on the number of points rented. My suggestion would be anything over 2000 points rented in a year would be considered commerical. Or how about a 50% rule. If you rent more than 50% of your points in a year you might be considered a redneck errr... commerical renter . I personally wouldn't like the 50% rule and I'm sure there would be other owners who only have 200 pts. that probably wouldn't like it either.

Y-ASK

Oh and one area where we disagree is the reserveing of primetime dates and then changing the name on the reservation when you find someone to rent your reservation. I don't hold it against you , We just differ in how we view that type of rental.

 

[dwelty]

I would say, booking a busy time on speculation and then selling it on E-Bay. This really irritates me.

 

[Deb & Bill]

Making reservations for others for cash.

 

[tor]

Making reservations for others for cash.

Isn't this the definition of renting or are you saying to ban all renting?

 

[dumbo71]

Isn't this the definition of renting or are you saying to ban all renting?

Please, none of that. I'll ask to close the thread. They provided a defintion of what THEY perceive as commercial renting.

That is what the thread is for.

 

[Lewisc]

Please, none of that. I'll ask to close the thread. They provided a defintion of what THEY perceive as commercial renting.

That is what the thread is for.

The poster was asking for clarification, is Deb&Bill saying all renting is commercial? That's the way I interpert the post but there is a difference between asking for clarification and debating the point.

You might as well ask to close the thread.

 

[Sammie]

I guess technically if you charge a fee and advertise your points, then all renting is commercial.

To me, it is when someone makes a business out of it. Renting on a regular basis instead of on a as needed basis. If someone has to cancel a personal trip and needs to rent those points instead of losing them, that truly does not bother me. If someone has a year they can't go for personal reasons and needs to rent their points, that does not bother me.

If someone purchases more points than they are going to need on a yearly basis and year after year, month after month rents, then I see that as setting up a business and do not think that was what DVC was intended for.

Also as said, those that book prime weeks, knowing from the get go they are not going to use that booking and then sell them, irritates me the most.

It truly does not matter what we feel is commercial it is what DVC feels is Commercial. You might want to ask them.

 

[isyt]

Also as said, those that book prime weeks, knowing from the get go they are not going to use that booking and then sell them, irritates me the most.



I am with you Sammie, I do some renting but I would never hold something without having a renter. I usually do rent half of my points to pay for the fees, but I have only posted my points once I think and ever since I have only repeat renters. So I guess a commercial renter is someone who rents out more than 75% of their points and has a history of name changes on a reservation. I think it should be a case by case because you could have someone that has an illness and doesn't travel-rents 100% of his points. No wonder DVC has a problem defining this I'm talking myself in circles!!!

 

[Dean]

It really doesn't matter much our definition, only DVC's and ultimately the courts if it's tested. This is not a tax issue though so making money is not a component nor is what price you charge or who your rent to. I see no other way for Disney to come up with a formal definition other than to use sheer numbers of points or total rentals and even then it would have to be a "pattern" so over multiple years. My definition would be based on the POS and the only info in there that could be construed as a definition is the 2000 points per resort and 5000 per member wording.

 

[greenban]

Simple.....

Anyone who rents 1 more reservation than I did/do.

-Tony

 

[DisDaydreamer]

I would say, booking a busy time on speculation and then selling it on E-Bay. This really irritates me.

I can't say what the definition is... but THIS is REALLY irritating.

 

[smjj]

Boy, you would definitely need a lawyer to ensure a definition was fair. Saying that I would like included in any definition something to the affect of not renting for profit more than say twice the est. annual dues. Many have stated they rent to pay for the dues or get rid of points they would otherwise loose. I don't rent but I sure have already felt the results of commercial renting already..smjj

 

[Dean]

Boy, you would definitely need a lawyer to ensure a definition was fair. Saying that I would like included in any definition something to the affect of not renting for profit more than say twice the est. annual dues. Many have stated they rent to pay for the dues or get rid of points they would otherwise loose. I don't rent but I sure have already felt the results of commercial renting already..smjj

DVC has no way to know what the rental prices are.

 

[dumbo71]

My defintion of a "commercial renter" would be someone who owns a vast number of points with the sole intention renting. They seldom, if ever, stay at WDW and they intend on using those points to become a suedo CRO for WDW rooms. They also scoop up distressed points via transfers and re-rent them for top dollar or worse, morph them to extend the life of said points and to gain the home resort status at a smaller prime DVC resort.

Since DVC has limited transfers to stop morphing, very few would be "commercial" from my standards. Those that are "commercial" can be easily tracked .

 

[Caskbill]

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Hope this helps.

 

[dianeschlicht]

My defintion of a "commercial renter" would be someone who owns a vast number of points with the sole intention renting. They seldom, if ever, stay at WDW and they intend on using those points to become a suedo CRO for WDW rooms. They also scoop up distressed points via transfers and re-rent them for top dollar or worse, morph them to extend the life of said points and to gain the home resort status at a smaller prime DVC resort.

Since DVC has limited transfers to stop morphing, very few would be "commercial" from my standards. Those that are "commercial" can be easily tracked .

I agree with you. Obviously, anyone using a website to "promote" their "product" is commercial.

 

[Dean]

I agree with you. Obviously, anyone using a website to "promote" their "product" is commercial.

Given the ease of use and prominence of personal websites, I would generally disagree. Under this definition, label me a commercial renter.