DEBATE: What makes a Disney attraction 'successful'?

[BRERALEX]

2. Guests will want to buy a lot of cheap crap

well that doesnt meet MY criteria ok.

i was looking for "the ride exits into a shop." but your almost there are you followin me? come here let me show you. cause you obviously dont get it!!!

 

[BRERALEX]

2. Guests will want to buy a lot of cheap crap

well that doesnt meet MY criteria ok.

i was looking for "the ride exits into a shop." but your almost there are you followin me? come here let me show you. cause you obviously dont get it!!!

 

[SnackyStacky]

Well, well - who's putting words in mouths now . Go back and read. I never disagreed with anything.

You're right. My bad. I was remembering something before I fished through and picked it up. See that? I ADMIT when I do it!

What 'qualification' are you talking about?

The qualification that "intelligent" should respect it. I didn't want to say this before because it sounds offensive, but there are, quite frankly, a LOT of stupid people at Walt Disney World. Look at some of the management team alone. Point is, EVERYONE should be able to "respect" it. I still think that the whole point is moot. I know you were trying to keep with Emerson, but get past the quote and let's attempt to define something that works for these rides.

Boy, I bolded it and told you that is where the focus should be and you still missed the point. Sure, Six Flags does some of those things. However, how many people talk or think about the Six Flags experience X months later?

To which I say:

SO, since you said Six Flags doesn't do it, I'm assuming you're re-referencing the Disney Magic. I agreed about 4 times now!!!!!!!!

Because that's the difference between Six Flags and Disney World. The Disney Magic.

You can interpret my items and agree with whatever you like,

No need to interpret, you said it flat out.

4. To earn the appreciation of honest critics for those Magical elements it offers

YOU keep talking about Disney Magic. I'm not interpreting anything.

As to number 7 - the Magic itself is not the point. The point is who gets the Magic. The power of one, if you will

Okay, so I don't get the magic of Aladdin. You do. How does that leave it as a success in your eyes? It still only fits to your requirements. So I can agree that others think it's a success. It is still, to me a failure. So articulate it however you'd like, I think that that item on your list is flawed.

Who's getting philosophical now .

An attempt at a joke to prove that you can't call ANYTHING within the confines of this discussion a truth.

1. All people are different.

Quite obviously, agreed.

2. Different people can find different Disney Magic in different things.

Agreed

3. Not everyone will be able to necessarily see the same Disney Magic that someone else does, or see it in the same way.

Agreed.

4. Everyone is deserving of Disney Magic.

When they first enter the park, yes. Some people aren't quite so deserving later on, but that's just a crude attempt at a joke.

Agreed.

5. No one ride can be all things to all people.

Agreed.

6. Disney is the best theme park destination in the world.

I could start a whole nother thread on this, but for sake of discussion, I'll cautiously agree.

Trouble now is trying to get a list to determine where someone thinks something succeeds, and where someone else thinks something fails, because like you said, and like I agreed with, there will be people who will have two completely different opinions on the success of a ride. So, attempt in the best possible vein what makes an attraction Disney, and see within that list of criteria where those opinions differ. If they all agree with those criteria, the criteria is flawed since the end opinion was different to begin with. Once again, I'm not saying that my list is perfect either. I'm just trying with you and everyone else to determine the factors that something lives up to to make it Disney.

you vehemently disagreed with that, or with the notion that you said it.

What I disagreed with is that I had an "unwritten list". I have NOTHING of the sort. My list were the 5 you saw, and that was it. That was my disagreement.

Fine, you didn't say it. Can we drop this one now ?

Fine by me!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Ok my Snacky friend – I can still call you friend, right? All those CAPS and !! with nary a winkie or smilie to be found – one could think you were getting sore. I hope not. Well, I was going to say that I could let your last post go, but you are just too much fun (and I have time on my hands on the train). So…………

but there are, quite frankly, a LOT of stupid people at Walt Disney World.

………and on Walt Disney World bulletin boards too (wait – since I am sensing you haven’t been reading my winkies and smilies let me add a few more) (and point out that they indicate I am joking. The more I wink and smile, the more I am joking – are we clear? You gotta admit – you set that one up toooooooo well. Come on, admit it .)

Let me just say this – if “intelligent” is the word you keyed on in that whole item you missed the point. Mooooooving right along……….

To which I say:
quote:
SO, since you said Six Flags doesn't do it, I'm assuming you're re-referencing the Disney Magic. I agreed about 4 times now!!!!!!!!

I have to say Mr. S, you are the only one who has ever, in back to back sentences, disagreed with me and then used more exclamation marks than the Baron to emphatically point out that you agree with me – but I let it go before. However, if you so clearly got what I was saying, why the heck did you preface your agreement with my point with a disagreement regarding something you knew I wasn’t saying? I’m starting to think you are just looking for a reason to disagree with me . Snacky, you got some splainin to do

YOU keep talking about Disney Magic. I'm not interpreting anything.

Hmmm…let me count how times that I said ‘Magic’ up until #4 in my list. Hmmm…that would be…..let me see……I’ll have it tallied in a moment…….(waiting for the auditors from Coopers & Lybrand to certify the results)…….the totals are in and that would be…….ONCE!!!!!!!!!! Oh, wait, you saw it more than once? Oh, that must have been your interpretation .

Okay, so I don't get the magic of Aladdin.

Who said anything about that A word that I swore I wouldn’t talk about . It sure wasn’t me .

An attempt at a joke to prove that you can't call ANYTHING within the confines of this discussion a truth.

Yeah, I got that. Believe it or not – I do get your humor. Sorry you don’t get mine – like jokingly turning your ‘philosophical’ line around on you. (Should I explain those winkies again?).

What I disagreed with is that I had an "unwritten list". I have NOTHING of the sort.

Weeeelllllll………as you are not disagreeing with having said that Disney should be, actually has a responsibility to be, better than the lawn fete or Six Flags, and I don’t see that item on your list of 5……………………wait, I just got out my decoder glasses – it was there on the list all along. It was just in invisible ink . Really, I'll move on now - you just make it sooooo hard .

Ok - on to something real. You stated earlier that you see the carousel as a failure, specifically as to the fact that it doesn't fit the storyline or theme I believe. If you look at the planning and implementation of Fantasyland it is actually a very good fit. You enter Fanstasyland through Cinderella's Castle. As you walk through the castle you pass those incredible murals made of mosaic tile that depict scenes from the movie. As you come out of the castle on the Fantasyland side the first thing you see is Cinderella's Golden Carousel. It ties Fantasyland to the castle and provides a wonderful transition. Very 'Disney', IMHO.

Hey, let's talk about more things like this - it is a bit more fun .

 

[SnackyStacky]

Let me preface this ENTIRE post with this statement.

I hate AOL. I'm getting it for free, so beggars can't be choosers. But it REALLY is not letting me dig through older posts, and get the codes for the right smiley faces, and it is REALLY aggravating. I'm not going to fight AOL today, so I can't quote anything beyond the few that appear at the bottom of the reply screen. Hope it also explains lack of smilies.

Ok my Snacky friend – I can still call you friend, right? All those CAPS and !! with nary a winkie or smilie to be found – one could think you were getting sore. I hope not. Well, I was going to say that I could let your last post go, but you are just too much fun (and I have time on my hands on the train). So…………

I get a little heated and fierce when it comes to my beliefs and opinions. Not sore at all. I'll keep up as long as you will. See above for referencing the lack of smilies.

An attempt at a joke

Was the focus of that statement. I wasn't sure if the joke had gotten across. Sometimes my jokes tend to be obscure, thus labeling it an "attempt".

Let me just say this – if “intelligent” is the word you keyed on in that whole item you missed the point. Mooooooving right along……….

Nope, as I said, I disagreed with the whole premise of that entire item. "intelligent people" was just the icing on the cake.

I have to say Mr. S, you are the only one who has ever, in back to back sentences, disagreed with me and then used more exclamation marks than the Baron to emphatically point out that you agree with me – but I let it go before.

Let me try again:

6. To leave the World a bit better, whether by an excited child, a carefree adult, a closer family, a unique experience, a better understanding of our world, a renewed spirit or a redeemed social condition. Ok, this one is a mouthful, but it is also rather simple. Perhaps the very things Walt fought so hard to provide. Disney attractions should excite, bring us together, educate, make us think, make us understand another peoples, give us something we can’t get elsewhere, help us to escape the workaday world, refresh us (at the same time as it exhausts us ), and make us all just a little bit happier, a little bit better – and have that stay with us (focus on this my friends, as a visit to Six Flags just doesn’t do it).

Let me break it down and respond element by element exactly what my response is to your #6 item:

6. To leave the World a bit better, whether by an excited child, a carefree adult, a closer family, a unique experience, a better understanding of our world, a renewed spirit or a redeemed social condition.

This is the end goal of ANY ride. To elicit some response from the rider, and many of those you listed (not all, but many) can happen at any entertainment/amusement/theme venue. ESPECIALLY if you have a community day, for the purpose of bringing people together. The rides play a significant role in that.

BUT, it seemed to me that you agreed with that, so you went on to refine that point even more:

Ok, this one is a mouthful, but it is also rather simple. Perhaps the very things Walt fought so hard to provide.

"The things Walt fought so hard to provide." Well, yes, he did, but he had more of a purpose than that because that can happen anywhere, so you refined even further...

Disney attractions should excite, bring us together, educate, make us think, make us understand another peoples, give us something we can’t get elsewhere, help us to escape the workaday world, refresh us (at the same time as it exhausts us ), and make us all just a little bit happier, a little bit better –

A start at an attempt to create a working definition of how to determine if something is Disney, BUT the cream on the cake....

and have that stay with us (focus on this my friends, as a visit to Six Flags just doesn’t do it).

AHA! The very essence of Disney. SO, if this isn't saying that a big part of how successful the ride is, is based on whether or not it is "Disney", please explain to me EXACTLY what you are saying. I had already said this, and continue to attempt to break down exactly what makes something Disney, since we seem to agree that that plays a vital role in the success of something. I was agreeing with what seemed to be the premise of your entire statement which I have broken down. I hope I've explained my agreement which has been consistent.

Weeeelllllll………as you are not disagreeing with having said that Disney should be, actually has a responsibility to be, better than the lawn fete or Six Flags, and I don’t see that item on your list of 5……………………wait, I just got out my decoder glasses – it was there on the list all along. It was just in invisible ink .

That item ISN'T on my list of 5 because the list is trying to determine that factor. That's like trying to determine a list as to how to describe "cold" (an almost impossibility) and putting down:
1.) The item is cold
It doesn't work. You can't use what you're trying to define in your definition!

Who said anything about that A word that I swore I wouldn’t talk about . It sure wasn’t me .

I'm not trying to argue the validity or success of Aladdin. It's just a GREAT place to try and get a list of defining success since we need a list that will fit your opinion that it's successful, and my opinion that it's not.

According to your items, I SHOULD see it as a success because others can see it as a success even though I don't. Based on your explanation of number 7:

As to number 7 - the Magic itself is not the point. The point is who gets the Magic. The power of one, if you will

I don't agree. So one person sees the Disney magic in something and nobody else does. Doesn't that leave it as a failure since if nobody rides it, it is probably a failure?

1.) Popularity
2.) Story
3.) Show from beginning to end
4.) It fits
5.) Innovation

While I've got that list in my head and since I brought up Aladdin, I agree with what Baron said. Some sort of sliding scale needs to be accounted for. Because regardless of whether or not Aladdin works, it's just not innovative, but that needs to be taken into account to allow for Kidds to think it's a success.

I take again this moment to say that the list isn't final, fact, or truth either! Just an attempt!

Ok - on to something real. You stated earlier that you see the carousel as a failure, specifically as to the fact that it doesn't fit the storyline or theme I believe. If you look at the planning and implementation of Fantasyland it is actually a very good fit. You enter Fanstasyland through Cinderella's Castle. As you walk through the castle you pass those incredible murals made of mosaic tile that depict scenes from the movie. As you come out of the castle on the Fantasyland side the first thing you see is Cinderella's Golden Carousel. It ties Fantasyland to the castle and provides a wonderful transition. Very 'Disney', IMHO.

I can't dig back to find exactly what I said, but I since I know me pretty well, I THINK what I most had a problem with was the innovation factor. I think I said that perhaps there was a storyline but if there is, it's somewhat stretched. I also believe I said that it did fit into the theme of Fantasyland as well as the Magic Kingdom. My biggest issue was the innovation factor.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Draft Copy

Sliding scale example. Submitted only to get the ball rolling.

You list a topic. Say ‘AGE’.

You give it a weight. It is understood that just to make it on the list it has to be important. So it is assumed to have a weight of: 1. If it is mort important than other criteria you give it a two (2).

Then you times the rating you give the subject by the weight. And move on to the next item. This time let’s try “STORY”. And again you have to weigh the item and then give it a rating. So, let’s see if I’m making any sense or you’re following me.

So since it’s my scale I’ll make up my own numbers. (We will have to reach a consensus eventiually, but for now, in this example, just go with it a minute)!!!

I’ll give “AGE” (can all ages enjoy it) a weight of one. But “Story” (for Disney) needs a weight of two!

So for Pirates I (again, my example) will give pirates a 9 for all ages (I suppose somewhere there might be a kid who might be a little scared). And for story, since I think that Pirates pretty much defines a Disney story, I’ll rate it as a ten!!

So for age that’s a 9 * 1 for a total ‘weighted rating’ of 9. And a 10 * 2 for a total ‘weighted rating’ of 20 for the story aspect.

Next you add the weighted ratings for a total (29) AND the weights for a total (3) and divide the ratings by the weights. This leaves you with a score of 9.67!!

For Aladdin I gave the age bit a 3 and the story bit a 7. For a weighted rating of 5.67.

It’d look like this:

Pirates
Item . . Weight . .Rating . . . Weighted Rating
Age . . . . . 1 . . . . 9 . . . . . . . . . 9
Story . . . . 2 . . . . 10 . . . . . . . . 20
Total . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .29
Weighted Rating . . . . . . . . . . .29/3 or 9.67

Aladdin
Item . . Weight . .Rating . . . Weighted Rating
Age . . . . . 1 . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . 3
Story . . . . 2 . . . . 7 . . . . . . . . . 14
Total . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .17
Weighted Rating . . . . . . . . . . .17/3 or 5.67

I also thought that the following might work. Criteria (weight)
Ages (1)
Story (2)
Theme (2)
Theme in area (2)
Overall Concept (2)
Ride mechanism (1)
Innovation (1)
Fun factor (1)

Just submitting as a draft for all to work on.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Baron . I can accept your concept. I can accept your importance factors. The problem comes in when assigning a rating which to multiply the importance factor by. Way too subjective. A 3 rated Story or Theme to you might be an 8 to someone else. You are rating the attraction as viewed through your eyes. Likewise, while you rate an attraction as a 9, others might see it as a 2. As for Age, how do you objectively determine what is a 3 and what is a 9?

Keep working .

 

[SnackyStacky]

How about we assign it a passing/failing grade based on how many of the criteria we think something passes.

Kidds, re: Aladdin, just answer yes or no to these questions: (Just yes or no, no need for explanation)

1.) Do people like it?
2.) Is there a story?
3.)Is there a show from beginning to end?
4.) Does it fit within land and park?
5.) Is it innovative.

My responses:

1.) yes
2.) no
3.) yes
4.) no
5.) no

That's 2 yesses to 3 no's, so by my standards it's a failure.

I'm asking this to determine if a system like that could work. More yesses is a success, more no's is a failure.

Might that work?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Might that work?

The only way I see that working is if you were polling a representative or balanced group. If you ask your question of the people who frequent this board you will come up failure for Aladdin no doubt. However, you would likely get a different answer if you sample group were different. Ask a group of 3 year olds and you will undoubtedly come up with success for Aladdin. How would you like to construct your focus group? Should there even be a focus group? I think management by focus group has led to many a mistake.

Ask yourself this. If Aladdin (and I only say it because you are MAKING me talk about it ) meets all of your 5 criteria as judged by a 3 year old and meets none of the 5 as judged by a 43 year old, is the ride a success or a failure?

 

[SnackyStacky]

I will have more time to talk about it later, but I just want to say that we need to disuss Aladdin. Not it's merits, but like I said before it's a good starting point because it's known that we have two differing opinions about it and a good gauge to figure out how to determine success.

More later!