{Debate} Pro-Choice Catholics Told to Confess

[Bob Slydell]

So am I supposed to go to confession every week before Sunday Mass, every time I think about a topic like abortion rights (yes, I'm a pro-Choice Catholic) and birth control or just after voting for a pro-Choice political candidate? That's what I'm confused by??

 

[The Mystery Machine]

No, no, no.. As a St. Louisian this guy is a real back buster. He is new here and has just offended about every Catholic in this city!

This isn't the only thing he is harping on. Most of us are ignoring him, he is a JERK!

 

[MHopkins2]

Big fat to the "policy" in question.

Re the tangent, I have more sympathy for Catholics who stay in the church even though they don't believe in 100% of the teachings than members of most Protestant variations. In addition to the Mary/saints issues and other such major differences, there's a (and I'm not trying to be mean, so please don't anyone take this the wrong way) sort of pageantry to Catholic services that you just can't get somewhere else, AFAIK.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by Manda1219
Ugh, don't even get me started on the Catholic religion.

Well, don't get me started on Jews, or born again Christians,or Methodists! Honestly, why would you say something like that about someone's religious beliefs? It's really only relevant to Catholics, and Catholics are going to have to figure out whether or not they can reconcile any pro-choice feelings with the church. I guess a lot of people's religious beliefs seem "nutty" to me. But I keep my mouth shut because it's none of my business.

If a church has a strong belief about something, the only person who is affected is the members of the church. And also, different priests have different stands they are taking, so it's really going to vary parish to parish. I'm not going to vot for most anti-abortion people because of other things besides the abortion issue.

 

[CBRorBust]

Well, don't get me started on Jews, or born again Christians,or Methodists! Honestly, why would you say something like that about someone's religious beliefs? It's really only relevant to Catholics, and Catholics are going to have to figure out whether or not they can reconcile any pro-choice feelings with the church. I guess a lot of people's religious beliefs seem "nutty" to me. But I keep my mouth shut because it's none of my business.

ITA. I thought that comment was also rude.


As far as the original post is concerned, I can see where the priest sees the link between which party you vote for and what you believe personally (morally and how it effects your "Catholicism"). However, I don't think that anyone needs to regulate which party I vote for period. That is where I think he crossed the line. I can see the tension between being a full blown Catholic and being democratic at the same time. It really is almost like you are contradicting yourself.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by CBRorBust
That is where I think he crossed the line. I can see the tension between being a full blown Catholic and being democratic at the same time. It really is almost like you are contradicting yourself.

You're absolutely right. I just know that my priest is not crossing that line, and so I guess it's terrible to say, but I don't have to worry about it right now. If it comes down to checking political party cards at the door, we'll have a problem. Until then, I'm not voting for Republicans just because they are anti- abortion. THere are a bunch more differences of opinions I have with them.

 

[treesinger]

The Catholic Church believes that pre-term deletion (my work filter won't allow the word abort***)=murder. There is no ambiguity there. So someone who is pro-choice (in other words, someone who does not ban the practice of what the Catholic Church considers murder) is professing AGAINST what the Catholic Church preaches. And to vote for a candidate that is pro-choice is knowingly supporting someone who, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, supports murder. It makes perfect sense to me.

Now, you may think that pre-term deletion is NOT murder. Ok. Then you disagree with Catholic authority. But doesn't being Catholic also mean abiding by the laws of Catholicism?

An honest question. If you don't agree with the Catholic authorities on matters of belief and morality, are you acting against God?


Let's be clear here. We're not talking about Kerry as someone who HAD a pre-term deletion, confessed, and is now absolved form that sin. He is against laws that for an indefinite time in the future, will guarantee the right of American women to have pre-term deletions. Or, to translate into the Catholic authority perspective, guarantee the right of American women to commit murders.

 

[CEDmom]

Our governor (NJ) went through this with the church recently because he is a pro-choice catholic. He chose to no longer receive the sacraments but stay a member of the church.

This guy sounds like a throwback to an era (the 1950's & early 60's) where a person's parish was the center of their world and there weren’t many interactions with non-Catholics. Catholics weren't encouraged to think for themselves but to just blindly follow the teachings of the church. The world is a completely different place - in some ways better and in some not. However, people now have choices. One of those is to continue practicing a faith one grew up with and for the most part embraces.

With all the scandal the church has faced in recent years I'd think they'd just want to keep a low profile. I don't think they can afford to alienate too many more people and stay afloat. If anything I find this guys stand hypocritical to the point of being comical.

 

[Tiggeroo]

DisneyDoll, I agree totally. This Bishop is only enforcing the rules of the Catholic church. According to the Catholic Church abortion is murder of an innocent, correct? Imagine you are a Catholic priest, you have been taught to accept and teach the tenents of your faith. You believe abortion is truly murder of a child. You also believe you must confess your sins in order to receive confession. Many of your members are for abortion and actively promoting political candidates who are. You have politicians in your parish who publicly say they are for abortion, which you consider murder. How could you, in good conscience allow this to go on. I applaud this Bishop. And it doesn't matter what I feel about abortion. He's not outlawing it. He's just saying this is what our faith says, stand by it. Of if you want, there are other Christian churches who don't make this an issue, you can go there.
I personally was raised a Catholic and left because I disagreed with a number of their beliefs, in particular birth control. It seemed hypocritical and wrong for me to use a faith to help me when I couldn't accept a major teaching of it.
Also, the biggest problem comes in because people are so public about the issue. You could probably quietly disagree about one or two things, but when you say I'm a Catholic and I'm loudly pro-choice, well to me that's just wrong.

 

[auntpolly]

Originally posted by treesinger


Now, you may think that pre-term deletion is NOT murder. Ok. Then you disagree with Catholic authority. But doesn't being Catholic also mean abiding by the laws of Catholicism?

An honest question. If you don't agree with the Catholic authorities on matters of belief and morality, are you acting against God?

Just out of curiousity, how many churches are OK with abortion? You want me to convert to Judaism because of the abortion issue? (I'm just guessing jews might be OK with abortion because all my Jewish friends are pro-choice).

When I thinkof anti-abortion people I'm not picturing all Catholics -- I think there are quite a few people who may not be agreeing 100% with their churches on many issues (for instance homosexuality).

 

[auntpolly]

sorry double post

 

[AirForceRocks]

If the individual bishops or priests or the Church overall wants to follow this path, then they are obviously well within their rights to do so.

What I do find fascinating though is the contrast between the reaction of the Church in this election v. the reaction of the Church in the 1960 election.

From what I understand, the Catholic Church went out of its way in 1960 to assure people that a Catholic President did not mean a President that would follow the dictates of the Pope in public matters. It seems now that this position has been turned on its head.

Just an observation.

 

[beattyfamily]

I agree with what Disney Doll, treesinger, Tiggeroo, auntpolly, and 6_Time_Momma have said so far regarding my Church.

I also find it rude to say this:

Originally posted by Manda1219
Ugh, don't even get me started on the Catholic religion.

I'm a Catholic by choice and I love my Church. IMHO, if you don't like it or don't believe in it's teachings and doctrine, well, then you have many others to choose from.

I think it's very brave for this Bishop to defend the teachings and doctrines of the Church. I also think it's not right for Kerry to continue to defy the Church and receive Communion when he is so adamently for abortion. He should abstain from receiving Communion if he continues to advocate abortion and vote on laws for it. He is also for partial birth abortions.

I guess the easiest solution for all y'all Catholics is to o ahead and vote for Kerry, and THEN go to confession. Then it's ok right?

So am I supposed to go to confession every week before Sunday Mass, every time I think about a topic like abortion rights (yes, I'm a pro-Choice Catholic) and birth control or just after voting for a pro-Choice political candidate? That's what I'm confused by??

That's not how it works. If you sin and you know it's wrong and you don't care and you confess it each week without really being sorry AND continuing to do the sin, then it's NOT ok to receive Communion. Many think you can use Confession in this way to continue to receive Communion. If you are against a teaching/doctrine and go against it on a regular basis, you should NOT receive Communion because just going in and confessing it each week won't cut it. Common misconception. You should have respect for the Church and Communion and not receive Communion if you are not in good standing with the Church through sin or regarding it's doctrine.

Is it possible this could be a civil debate without insulting Catholic??

Flame away.

 

[CEDmom]

Originally posted by auntpolly
Just out of curiousity, how many churches are OK with abortion? You want me to convert to Judaism because of the abortion issue? (I'm just guessing jews might be OK with abortion because all my Jewish friends are pro-choice).

When I thinkof anti-abortion people I'm not picturing all Catholics -- I think there are quite a few people who may not be agreeing 100% with their churches on many issues (for instance homosexuality).

I can't speak for all religions but as a Protestant I can tell you my church doesn't encourage abortion or necessarily condone it. My church however believes this is a decision between God and me. If I chose to carry out my right of choice then my church would support my decision and continue to welcome me as a member.

As far as not agreeing with the church on many issues, I said this before and I'll say it again. I don't know any catholic of my generation that fully agrees with everything the church stands for.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Originally posted by beattyfamily
If you are against a teaching/doctrine and go against it on a regular basis, you should NOT receive Communion

So the $$$$million dollar$$$$ question is...."If you vote democratic are you sinning?"

My answer to that is no, and until the Pope says voting democratic is a SIN then I will continue to be Catholic.

What is your take on this?

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by The Mystery Machine
So the $$$$million dollar$$$$ question is...."If you vote democratic are you sinning?"

My answer to that is no, and until the Pope says voting democratic is a SIN then I will continue to be Catholic.

What is your take on this?

You may consider yourself to be catholic, but in reality, you are not a catholic in good standing. Another example of situational ethics becoming the norm rather than being something one would & should be ashamed of.

 

[Tiggeroo]

...."If you vote democratic are you sinning?"

No of course not. Voting is a complex issue. You have to look at everything the candidate stands for and weigh one thing against the other. There are many people who will allow abortion to be the deciding issue. If you are a CAtholic who because of a myriad of issues finaly decides to vote for a candidate who is pro-choice, so be it. But if you are a Catholic who actively seeks out candidates who are pro-choice so you can vote for them I would see a problem. I am anti-abortion and generally will not choose a candidate who is pro-choice. There are issues I support that would make me a Democrat sometimes but unfortunately the Democratic party has become synonomous with pro-choice and it seems like the first thing their candidates announce when an election comes up. But I don't believe alot of elected officials really control the abortion laws and there have been times when I have voted for a pro-choice candidate. For example, we have had republican presidents who were pro-choice most of the time since roevswade. And at times a Republican pro-choice majority but no change in the abortion laws.
With so many faiths to choose from, some with very similar sacraments to Catholicism I don't see why people who disagree with core issues in the Catholic church continue to attend there. I would think it would generate feelings of guilt.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
You may consider yourself to be catholic, but in reality, you are not a catholic in good standing. Another example of situational ethics becoming the norm rather than being something one would & should be ashamed of.

I do not actively seek out a politician for it's stance on Roe V Wade. My vote is based on other policies. My personal belief is that I am against abortion.

I have nothing to be ashamed or guilty for.

 

[pokiemomo181]

I am catholic, and I do believe the rules should be followed if that is the religion of your choice. I don't believe in abortion, and my whole family feels the same way. You can't have it both ways. You are either Catholic or not. You can't pick which rules you don't like and follow the ones you do. If the rules are more than you are willing to follow, there are a lot of religions out there that would better fit your style. Try one of those.


Pokie

 

[6_Time_Momma]

As far as not agreeing with the church on many issues, I said this before and I'll say it again. I don't know any catholic of my generation that fully agrees with everything the church stands for.

I know several who agree with the all the Church dogmas and teachings. You probably know a few and just don't realize it.