Debate: Partial Birth Abortion...

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
I would just like to jump in and add here that not everyone who is against later term abortion is a religious person. I am not religious in the slightest.

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
So that's a no, then?
The question was the humane-ness or lack thereof, which IMO is predicated upon pain and suffering.

so, you would be ok with a child being killed if it were done humanely & the child did not suffer?

by extension of your post, that is exactly what you are saying. If a humane action is predicated opon pain & suffering, applying an anesthetic before killing someone is humane.

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by caitycaity
i pretty much agree with mhopkins' NOMB comment.

the murder of the innocent should be everyone's business.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by Galahad
As I said earlier, there is never a medical reason to do this. The health and life of the woman is not being protected by this procedure. So I actually find the opposition to its prohibition more puzzling than the position of those that want it banned.

I just want it left to the doctor(s) involved in the case to make that determination, and not a politically-motivated (by definition) legislature.

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
No, I seriously don't - no joke. Do we have a doctor in the house that could help with this question?

if you read one of the links, there is testimony from a doctor in a court case about the very subject.

 

[poohandwendy]

Can someone here give a specific scenario instance where the mothers health or life is at risk and this procedure would benefit her?

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
If you undersatood the subject, you could not possibly be pro-murder.

For the second time, you are wrong - I absolutely do understand the subject. You don't have to agree with me, but don't patronize me. Thanks.

As for the links, there was not a picture of aborted fetuses. The last link had a diagram of the medical procedure as it went step by step. no blood & guts to get in the way of your conscience....

I wasn't talking about your link, I was referring to links posted in other threads. Having said that, to repeat myself, the pictures do not change my opinion - just as the disgusting pictures of skinned animals my old friend acepepper posted in the fur thread didn't change my opinion on that topic. I don't respond to that kind of emotional blackmail.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by wdwdvcdad
so, you would be ok with a child being killed if it were done humanely & the child did not suffer?

There were two separate questions posed; the one I was answering was the humane-ness or lack thereof of the procedure. I don't feel the procedure is inhumane.

If a humane action is predicated opon pain & suffering, applying an anesthetic before killing someone is humane.

Sure it is. That doesn't mean the killing itself is morally acceptable, but the purposeful reduction of pain is a humane action.

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
There were two separate questions posed; the one I was answering was the humane-ness or lack thereof of the procedure. I don't feel the procedure is inhumane.
Sure it is. That doesn't mean the killing itself is morally acceptable, but the purposeful reduction of pain is a humane action.

well, my work here is done.

 

[poohandwendy]

If this is such a humane procedure that causes no suffering or pain...why hasn't there been a push to have this procedure used in death penalty cases and euthanasia of pets?

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
Good gravy, no. So I take it you'd be in favor of me having an abortion?

Sorry, that was just such a good comeback.

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Can someone here give a specific scenario instance where the mothers health or life is at risk and this procedure would benefit her?

I don't know any of the medical terms, but I saw a TV show on labor and delivery once where one of the women had a high-risk pregnancy. She was somewhere in her 7th month and already in the hospital, awaiting the right time for a c-section with all kinds of specialists on hand. Physically she was swollen to about twice her normal size, everywhere. I don't know what from.

Anyway, I was thinking how brave it was to make the decision to go through with it. It's dangerous, I don't know how people do it when they have other little ones at home (this woman didn't), or if they're not near state-of-the-art medical care, and hopefully she wasn't going to have to pay for even a tenth of the expense, in the event she survived. (She did.) Had she had those kinds of problems in the 4th or 5th month, what are her options?

I don't know how anyone with blood running through their veins can think an unborn life is equal to the mother's life....except maybe the mother and father themselves.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by Teejay32
I don't know any of the medical terms, but I saw a TV show on labor and delivery once where one of the women had a high-risk pregnancy. She was somewhere in her 7th month and already in the hospital, awaiting the right time for a c-section with all kinds of specialists on hand. Physically she was swollen to about twice her normal size, everywhere. I don't know what from.

Anyway, I was thinking how brave it was to make the decision to go through with it. It's dangerous, I don't know how people do it when they have other little ones at home (this woman didn't), or if they're not near state-of-the-art medical care, and hopefully she wasn't going to have to pay for even a tenth of the expense, in the event she survived. (She did.) Had she had those kinds of problems in the 4th or 5th month, what are her options?

I don't know how anyone with blood running through their veins can think an unborn life is equal to the mother's life....except maybe the mother and father themselves.

Your post makes no sense medically. If she went through with a partial birth abortion, there is no reason that her life would have been in danger had they allowed the baby to live after delivering it rather than killing it.

Unless you are saying that they merely induced labor prematurely and the baby died because of that. If that is the case, you are NOT referring to the same thing as partial birth abortion.

 

[caitycaity]

If this is such a humane procedure that causes no suffering or pain...why hasn't there been a push to have this procedure used in death penalty cases and euthanasia of pets?

when was the last time a fetus was on death row or a dog fetus was euthanized?

 

[MosMom]

I have pictures of my children because *I CHOSE* not to get an abortion. The point is, I had that choice. I certainly never attacked southernclass either!

I said that I am on the fence about abortion in general and feel late term abortion is wrong. If you would read instead of attacking yourself, you might see that. I do, however, feel that there is no Pollyanna answer and the results of banning abortion will be as disgusting as abortion itself.

We have a crisis in this country with unwanted children. Sure, many couples want to adopt....they want to adopt white newborns. I can't imagine how much that crisis would grow. To truly understand a situation, you HAVE to be able to look at it from all sides. Feeling sorry for babies isn't enough.

When the majority of those looking to adopt want healthy white infants, the majority of aborted babies would not have homes. The financial impact alone would be astronomical (caring for many children not only until they are 18 but beyond because many would be disabled).

Being forced to live with a drug addict parent that severely abuses you. Having a small chance of succeeding as a functioning adult. Being passed around from foster home to foster home because nobody wants you. Yes, there are some who would step up to their high horse plate and adopt some of these children but the majority would complain about their tax dollars and pass them by as a subsequent homeless person on the street.

I honestly don't know which is more cruel. Abortion or striking poverty & abuse.

There is no perfect world answer. I wish there was. I wish every baby in this world was born to a responsible loving parent. I wish MANY things in this world weren't the way they are now. However, until we construct people like the Stepfords...it isn't happening. Not everything is black & white.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by caitycaity
when was the last time a fetus was on death row or a dog fetus was euthanized?

I am talking about the procedure of puncturing the skull and sucking the brains out. That has been said to be humane (causes no pain) on this thread. So, why do we not push for that part of the procedure to be used with DR inmates and pets who need euthanized?

 

[caitycaity]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I am talking about the procedure of puncturing the skull and sucking the brains out. That has been said to be humane (causes no pain) on this thread. So, why do we not push for that part of the procedure to be used with DR inmates and pets who need euthanized?

uh, the person who said that was referring to a fetus, though.

 

[poohandwendy]

If it is humane for a fetus, why on earth would it not be humane for a dog or DR inmate?

 

[mep319]

Originally posted by goofy4tink
You know, there is an old saying that goes something like this..."I don't agree with you, but I'll defend, to the death, your freedom to have that different opinion." Would I have an abortion? Probably not. It's not the right choice for me. But, I will still defend your right to have one, if that's what is right for you. As I would defend your right to not have one. I am such a fence sitter. I just hate being able to see both sides. For those of you that are Pro choice or anti abortion/choice, nothing we say will make you change that opinion.

That's not being a fence sitter! I applaud you for recognizing that although abortion may not be right for you...you do not have that right to impose that belief on someone else. I use to feel the same way. I doubt I would ever have an abortion but I fully support someone's right to choose to have one....Personally I find it to be a high religiously debate on when you perceive life begins...at the time of conception or not. I also I feel differently about it now that I have a child....believe it or not I think I would be more apt to choose an abortion now if my life was at risk. I would have an abortion b/c I have a child here with me that needs me.

Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean you shouldn't support the right of someone else to!

 

[caitycaity]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
If it is humane for a fetus, why on earth would it not be humane for a dog or DR inmate?

first of all, i am not saying i personally think it is humane (or not). i have no idea. i was just saying you should not compare apples and oranges.

you realize that dogs and fetuses are physiologically different from human adults, right?