Debate: Partial Birth Abortion...

[MHopkins2]

P&W -

I think it would be a (relatively) humane choice, but it's (as someone posted back on page 1, I think) gross and the current methods are already equally humane, so why change?

But anyway, my point with this (now out of hand) sidetrack is that you put in your OP:

Do you think the medical community should try to find a more humane way to perform abortions?

I was disputing the premise that the current PBA procedure is not humane.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by caitycaity
first of all, i am not saying i personally think it is humane (or not). i have no idea. i was just saying you should not compare apples and oranges.

you realize that dogs and fetuses are physiologically different from human adults, right?

Um actually, no I do not belive fetuses and adults are physiologically any different when it comes to pain. They have nerve endings and pain receptors just like adults do. Please show me where we differ in that way? Where do you think we get our perception of pain from?

 

[poohandwendy]

I was disputing the premise that the current PBA procedure is not humane.

I understand that, but it has been proven that fetuses react to pain. Unless you are saying that a puncture in the base of the skull is pain free, I don't understand how you can justify your stance. Unless you are saying that it doesn't mater if a fetus feels a short period of pain.

 

[mep319]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I am talking about the procedure of puncturing the skull and sucking the brains out. That has been said to be humane (causes no pain) on this thread. So, why do we not push for that part of the procedure to be used with DR inmates and pets who need euthanized?

So you are anti-abortion but pro the death penalty??

 

[mep319]

Originally posted by iloveblonds2000
As if and no Mhopkins I would be in favor of you getting your tubes tied so you don't pass on your barbaric ways to your children!

Rather judgemental don't you think? Can't you state your opinions with out attacking? I will be passing my "barbaric ways" to my daughter as well. Mhopkins will have company!

 

[poohandwendy]

So you are anti-abortion but pro the death penalty??

Why do you ask?

I was asking why we don't try for the least painful death...and if partial birth aborton is "pain free" (as said previously), then it has one up on the electric chair and lethal injection...both of which have at least a small amount of pain involved.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I understand that, but it has been proven that fetuses react to pain. Unless you are saying that a puncture in the base of the skull is pain free, I don't understand how you can justify your stance.

We haven't heard from any docs yet (what time does she get home from work, Galahad? jk), but yeah, I think the jury's out on that one. It takes the brain some small amount of time to process the stimulus and realize that "pain" is the appropriate response. So I think that done correctly, a brain puncture would be pain free. (I.e., the brain would be dead before it had time to provide the pain response.) Inappropriate analogy of the day: if you've ever grabbed a hot pan from the oven, you know it takes a second or two to figure it out, by which time you've burnt your hand quite nicely.

Does that make any sense?

 

[MosMom]

Many things have a small amount of pain but are considered humane. The question is, does it lead to suffering.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by caitycaity
i didn't say when it comes to pain. as you might notice, my previous post said i don't know on that issue.

What on earth do you think we are talking about then? The pain involved is what some people here are basing their stance on. That it is not painful...

In what context does it matter if pets, fetuses and adults are physiologically different, if they all feel pain in the same way...and how does that pertain to this debate?

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Your post makes no sense medically. If she went through with a partial birth abortion, there is no reason that her life would have been in danger had they allowed the baby to live after delivering it rather than killing it.

Unless you are saying that they merely induced labor prematurely and the baby died because of that. If that is the case, you are NOT referring to the same thing as partial birth abortion.

No no, she had her baby via c-section toward the end of her 7th month. The woman had an underlying medical condition where she was risking her own life going through with the pregnancy, sorry I wasn't clear about that, and if she'd had the more severe problems in the sixth month instead of the 7th, things might have turned out very different.

Besides that I remember reading someone else's story on here a long time ago, similar to the one above with a complication that developed during a pregnancy, that did end in an abortion. I doubt we'll hear it again, and I have no reason to doubt the person when she said it saved her life. A nod to those with more medical knowledge than me, but I'm not convinced it's never done because the mother's life is at risk.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
The pain involved is what some people here are basing their stance on. That it is not painful...

Just for the record... My stance on the relative humane-ness of the procedure is based on pain to the fetus or lack thereof. My stance (NOMB and let the doctors in conjunction with the parent(s) decide) on performing the procedure itself is not.

 

[poohandwendy]

A nod to those with more medical knowledge than me, but I'm not convinced it's never done because the mother's life is at risk.

The thing is, though...why kill the baby, why not just deliver it...I mean, it is already 2/3 born....

I cannot think of ANY maternal medical condition that would require the actual DEATH of a healthy, viable fetus during birth to improve the health of the mother.

 

[mep319]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Why do you ask?

I was asking why we don't try for the least painful death...and if partial birth aborton is "pain free" (as said previously), then it has one up on the electric chair and lethal injection...both of which have at least a small amount of pain involved.

Just wondering where you were going with that....which you explained. I am often baffled by folks that are anti abortion...pro death penalty. Hypocritical don't ya think? But that would be a different debate!

 

[MHopkins2]

OT

Originally posted by mep319
Just wondering where you were going with that....which you explained. I am often baffled by folks that are anti abortion...pro death penalty. Hypocritical don't ya think? But that would be a different debate!

I'm not one of them ( ), but I do understand that route. The Reader's Digest version is that abortion is immoral because it involves death of an innocent person, whereas the DP (presumably) does not.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
[]




I am pro-choice because I see it as one of the only ways to solve the problems globally regarding overpopulation, etc.

It would be great if we had no need for these type of solutions, someday. [/B]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am in shock that in a civilized world, somone would say this.

 

[snoopy]

LOL! Uhhhhh, o.k., I'm glad you are not my husband, so we're even.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
Honestly? No, I don't - which is why I originally posted that I don't see anything inhumane about it. If the brain is punctured and sucked out, the pain center in the brain goes along with it. (Note: you sort of contradicted yourself - babies cry from *shock* upon birth, not necessarily pain.)
Don't assume that just because I don't agree with you on this, it's because I didn't understand the subject. I already knew the details of how this procedure works, and my opinion stands. (As does my opinion on other types of abortions, after some samaritan inevitably posts links to squicky pictures.)

I am not trying to get personal here, but would you support the same procedure for youself?

 

[TinkBoo&ElliesMum]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
Oh, but it is your business. How the people you live with value human life is very much your business. Abortions dont occur in a vaccuum. They affect each and every one of us in ways you can not imagine.

How does someone you don't know having an abortion affect your life??

You honestly can't know who has had an abortion and who hasn't, and with your views I'm sure if you knew someone who had they sure wouldn't tell you about it.

 

[mep319]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
OT I'm not one of them ( ), but I do understand that route. The Reader's Digest version is that abortion is immoral because it involves death of an innocent person, whereas the DP (presumably) does not.

But see I don't buy that...when are we in the business of judging when one person life is more important than another or if it is innocent or not. Courts make mistakes. I thought it was based on when your concept of life begins...at least that is how I differentiate. But again that is a different debate! But I did learn something...thanks!

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
I am not trying to get personal here, but would you support the same procedure for youself?

I can't imagine ever getting to the point where it was necessary (if it ever is medically necessary, which is still disputed, I think). However, if early abortions used the same procedure [suspension of disbelief; I know the physiology doesn't make sense], yes, I would do it if I got pregnant.