DEBATE: is health care a right or a privilege?

[Toby'sFriend]

Is what you are saying that if you were a doctor, you would refuse treatment to an obviously very ill person because you didn't beleive that they would try to pay via a payment plan??

I think there are numerous doctor's in our country who donate a portion of their time in providing lower cost or free care to patients who can't pay. But the fact remains that they are still a business with employees and overhead that must be paid. We are a capitalist society and NO business can expect to remain viable for long if they are required to provide their skills at no cost to a significant portion of their clientele.

When Doctors and Hospitals can no longer afford to operate in a community, they shut the doors and move away. It has happened in many of our smaller towns and cities. The hospital in my Mom's town has teetered on bankruptcy for years. They have now closed down almost all services and they simply operate as an outpatient Urgent Care clinic with a small staff of doctors who commute from a lager hospital on alternating days.

When that happens, everybody in the community loses.

 

[damo]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Have you ever taken a few minutes to think about WHY you aren't spending billions on your defense budget? Could the answer be because you don't have to? Because someone else is paying the lion's share of your defense costs?

Your point? If you guys want all our natural resourses you had better make sure you watch over them. You certainly aren't watching over us for our own good. I have heard time and time again on these boards that the US could care less about Canada; we just have things that you guys need.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by damo
Your point? If you guys want all our natural resourses you had better make sure you watch over them. You certainly aren't watching over us for our own good. I have heard time and time again on these boards that the US could care less about Canada; we just have things that you guys need.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it...your natural resources are the reason why we spend billions to help protect Canada. All of your resources? Does Canada not produce anything on it's own? How could you, if we are taking all of your natural resources?

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Oh, c'mon...You're ducking the question because you don't like how the answer makes you sound

EVERYTHING you've posted to this point says that you'd answer "Yes, that's exactly what I would do, since my practice is a business and if they can't pay, I shouldn't have to treat them".

EVERYTHING you've posted says that, so why no own up to it ?

I don't answer hypothetical questions because they are a no-win situation. They inevitably derail the discussion on some absurd tangent. And having absolutely no experience in practicing medicine, I have no knowledge to even begin formulating an answer.

But I do appreciate your psychic abilities to know what I would say. Since you feel you are hitting home runs with this, I'll just duck out of this and turn any future answers over to you.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
I don't answer hypothetical questions because they are a no-win situation. They inevitably derail the discussion on some absurd tangent. And having absolutely no experience in practicing medicine, I have no knowledge to even begin formulating an answer.

But I do appreciate your psychic abilities to know what I would say. Since you feel you are hitting home runs with this, I'll just duck out of this and turn any future answers over to you.

Sorry, but I just try to call it like I see it, and everything you've posted in this debate - about how medicine is a business and that people that can't pay shouldn't receive free treatment - led me to believe that your answer was fairly obvious.

As to not answering hypotheticals...It's not an unreasonable stance to take, given that a hypothetical can pretty much always be drawn that will paint the opposite side of an argument in a negative light. Still, I don't think Esmeralda's question was far-fetched. It was pretty straight forward, considering your comments up to that point.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Sorry, but I just try to call it like I see it, and everything you've posted in this debate - about how medicine is a business and that people that can't pay shouldn't receive free treatment - led me to believe that your answer was fairly obvious.

As to not answering hypotheticals...It's not an unreasonable stance to take, given that a hypothetical can pretty much always be drawn that will paint the opposite side of an argument in a negative light. Still, I don't think Esmeralda's question was far-fetched. It was pretty straight forward, considering your comments up to that point.

Just one correction ... I don't believe I said that if someone cannot pay they shouldn't receive free treatment. If I did say that, I mis-typed. What I should have said was if you cannot pay you should not expect free treatment. This goes along with my belief that healthcare is a privilege, not a right.

As for answering/not answering hypotheticals ... you've already answered the last one for me, so that issue should be settled, right?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Just one correction ... I don't believe I said that if someone cannot pay they shouldn't receive free treatment. If I did say that, I mis-typed. What I should have said was if you cannot pay you should not expect free treatment. This goes along with my belief that healthcare is a privilege, not a right.

So, what...it should be a surprise ?

Seriously, I guess I just don't get the distiction...They should get the treatment, but they shouldn't expect to get the treatment...
Should the doc's sneak up on 'em when they least expect it ?

I mean, I think what you're saying is that people shouldn't depend on the government to provide health care...which I agree with, for the most part. Self reliance is a wonderful thing, and people should always try to take care of themselves first. I just happen to believe that it is most definitely in the public interest (and thus, should be the domain of the government) to have something to fall back on if the worst should happen....because despite your dislike for hypotheticals, the worst DOES happen, all the time.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
So, what...it should be a surprise ?

Seriously, I guess I just don't get the distiction...They should get the treatment, but they shouldn't expect to get the treatment...
Should the doc's sneak up on 'em when they least expect it ?

If I cannot pay for something, why should I have any expectation of obtaining it? This could apply to a book, a meal, groceries, gas for my SUV, tickets for travel or a concert or -- GASP! -- healthcare. All I said was, if you cannot pay for it, don't expect to receive it. If a healthcare provider chooses to provide their services for free, that's their choice and right to do. I don't believe people should expect them to do this, much less demand it.

I mean, I think what you're saying is that people shouldn't depend on the government to provide health care...which I agree with, for the most part.

Exactly, because providing healthcare is not a responsibility of the government. Healthcare is a commodity, just like books, software, take-out food, gasoline, etc. Healthcare providers "sell" their services; people using those services should expect to pay for it, just like they should expect to pay for their Chinese take-out or their gasoline or their groceries. Funny, but I don't see people clamoring for the government to subsidize their "right" to read, eat out, see movies, travel, play computer games, etc. Healthcare is no different... JMO.

Self reliance is a wonderful thing, and people should always try to take care of themselves first. I just happen to believe that it is most definitely in the public interest (and thus, should be the domain of the government) to have something to fall back on if the worst should happen....because despite your dislike for hypotheticals, the worst DOES happen, all the time.

I don't deny that bad things happen. Been there; experienced that. My choice, however, was not to expect the government to come bail me out. What I did was look for and utilize other options.

From what I've observed & experienced of the government's hand in healthcare, I would much rather they keep their hands off it entirely. Whatever they touch quickly becomes FUBAR.

 

[Bob Slydell]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
If I cannot pay for something, why should I have any expectation of obtaining it? This could apply to a book, a meal, groceries, gas for my SUV, tickets for travel or a concert or -- GASP! -- healthcare. All I said was, if you cannot pay for it, don't expect to receive it. If a healthcare provider chooses to provide their services for free, that's their choice and right to do. I don't believe people should expect them to do this, much less demand it.

Exactly, because providing healthcare is not a responsibility of the government. Healthcare is a commodity, just like books, software, take-out food, gasoline, etc. Healthcare providers "sell" their services; people using those services should expect to pay for it, just like they should expect to pay for their Chinese take-out or their gasoline or their groceries. Funny, but I don't see people clamoring for the government to subsidize their "right" to read, eat out, see movies, travel, play computer games, etc. Healthcare is no different... JMO.

I don't deny that bad things happen. Been there; experienced that. My choice, however, was not to expect the government to come bail me out. What I did was look for and utilize other options.

From what I've observed & experienced of the government's hand in healthcare, I would much rather they keep their hands off it entirely. Whatever they touch quickly becomes FUBAR.

ITA with this whole post.

 

[damo]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yeah, I'm sure that's it...your natural resources are the reason why we spend billions to help protect Canada. All of your resources? Does Canada not produce anything on it's own? How could you, if we are taking all of your natural resources?

Where did I say you are taking all of our natural resouces? There's a big difference between wanting and taking.

In 2003, the U.S. sold about $200 billion worth of goods and services to Canada and received about $245 billion worth of goods and services from Canada. One fifth of all US exports went to Canada. Canada is the single largest supplier of energy to the U.S. at more than $41 billion in 2003 – nearly three times as much as Saudi Arabia. Canada supplied the U.S. with 88% of its natural gas imports, and 17% of its oil in 2003 — more than any other country. Sounds like a good relationship to protect.

Please show me how the US spends billions to protect Canada above and beyond what they would already be spending on themselves. I totally agree that Canada benefits from having a neighbour with a big gun but I don't think that the US is putting themselves out trying to help us so that we can provide health care for our citizens.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954

From what I've observed & experienced of the government's hand in healthcare, I would much rather they keep their hands off it entirely. Whatever they touch quickly becomes FUBAR.

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Only because it isn't managed correctly.. If it were, it would be less costly than it currently is and 100% more effective..

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by damo
Please show me how the US spends billions to protect Canada above and beyond what they would already be spending on themselves.

Why would we do that? Can't you take care of and protect yourselves??

 

[Tinks]

I totally agree with that post, too. It says all I want to say but am unable to put well into words. Thanks, Eeyore1954.


As coming from a family of health care providers and being a health care provider myself---medical care is a service! It is not free...doctors do not work for free....would you????? Would you want the government coming to your business and making decisions on how much you can charge people for your service and your time and telling you what your salary is going to be??? That is crazy!

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
If I cannot pay for something, why should I have any expectation of obtaining it? This could apply to a book, a meal, groceries, gas for my SUV, tickets for travel or a concert or -- GASP! -- healthcare. All I said was, if you cannot pay for it, don't expect to receive it. If a healthcare provider chooses to provide their services for free, that's their choice and right to do. I don't believe people should expect them to do this, much less demand it.

Because health care isn't a book, a meal, or gas for your SUV...It's necessary for continued survival. Can you affor an M1 Tank ? How about a B1 Bomber ? Then why should the government provide them just to keep you safe ? Because that's something the government MUST do to insure all of it's citizens have some measure of security...just as it OUGHT to do for healthcare, and for the same exact reason.

Essentially, I think that's what this entire debate boils down to. I view healthcare as a requirement, not a luxury. It is NOT a commodity, but an essential part of life. Because of this, I believe it to be a "right", as one cannot have "life" without it. For this reason, I believe it is the responsibility of any civilized government to ensure that all of it's citizens have access to quality medical treatment, regardless of their income. I don't call that "socialism", I call it civilization in the 21st century.

 

[damo]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Why would we do that? Can't you take care of and protect yourselves??

I agree. Airforcerocks claims that you do.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by C.Ann
-------------------------------

Only because it isn't managed correctly.. If it were, it would be less costly than it currently is and 100% more effective..

Ah yes ... this old argument. I heard that before when someone wanted to nationalize healthcare in the U.S. Even though it has turned out poorly in every country where it is attempted, we (the U.S.) could make it work if we just put the right people in charge of it.

I've heard that said about subsidized housing ...
And welfare programs ...
And educational programs...
And public service programs...

The problem is we just never seem to be able to get the right people because as I said before everything the gov't. touches inevitably gets FUBAR. Some people would argue that's just an opinion; in my experience, it's more like a fact of life.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Tinks
I totally agree with that post, too. It says all I want to say but am unable to put well into words. Thanks, Eeyore1954.


As coming from a family of health care providers and being a health care provider myself---medical care is a service! It is not free...doctors do not work for free....would you????? Would you want the government coming to your business and making decisions on how much you can charge people for your service and your time and telling you what your salary is going to be??? That is crazy!

Actually, what I'd consider crazy is comparing what can be charged for essential, life saving medicine to what can be charged for a Big Mac. See, the thing is, I can live without the Big Mac....not so the medical services.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Tinks
[B It is not free...doctors do not work for free....would you????? [/B]

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I thought we already established that we weren't speaking in terms of "free" ?

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Actually, what I'd consider crazy is comparing what can be charged for essential, life saving medicine to what can be charged for a Big Mac. See, the thing is, I can live without the Big Mac....not so the medical services.

If you can't live without medical services, then I'd recommend you plan carefully so that you are never without the resources to pay for it.

 

[Galahad]

Originally posted by C.Ann
-------------------------------

I thought we already established that we weren't speaking in terms of "free" ?

No. But if it is a "right" provided by the state, the state is the payer and then will dictate what can be done by the doctor, what can be charged by the doctor, etc. etc. etc. You will eventually reduce the number of qualified people willing to be physicians with that kind of intrusion into their practice.