DEBATE: is health care a right or a privilege?

[Tinks]

And do you know what's sad, Deb?? How many "private practices" are left??? My dad's Internal Medicine group is the last lone holdout in our large city---the rest were bought out by the Hospital. When I practiced our salaries were determined by the insurance/ HMOs. It is going downhill, folks. The more it is regulated, the worse it gets. Just my opinion....no solutions from me!!!! ---other than if you think it is bad now, let the Government in!!!

 

[Deb in IA]

Originally posted by dmadman43
Well, TNSTAAFL. Someone is paying for it, somehow, someway. Most likely those that aren't getting a return on their money.

Well, dmadman43, looks like we doctors and hospitals are damned if we do (charge $$) and damned if we don't (charge $$), now, aren't we????


POIAEHNOXDINRTSNPEORINSNWERSKSJDBRPOISNDFJSHALSEUBF!

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
But some NEW program, still operated by the government, would be guaranteed to be better? Excuse me for being cynical, but I seriously doubt it.

---------------------

If I implied - or stated - that I was advocating a "new" program, then I'm sorry.. That was a mistake..

We HAVE several programs in place already that "could" take care of these problems if they were managed in a better way.. One that would maximize the use of the money that is already available, rather than wasting it with the "all or nothing" mind set..

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Deb in IA
"Tests" do NOT equal "good care", and "no tests" does NOT equal "poor care".

Get over your dependence on "tests".

--------------------------------------

Sorry, but had my own doctor (and several I have encountered in ER's) not been intelligent enough to realize the importance of diagnostic tests BEFORE treating me, I would have been dead several times over..

 

[jrydberg]

I think the fundamental point is that tests are no substitute for a good physician.

Tests are not the be all end all of health care.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by jrydberg
I think the fundamental point is that tests are no substitute for a good physician.

Tests are not the be all end all of health care.

--------------------------------------------

I think the doctor/test thing could be an entirely new debate on a separate thread..

Luckily "tests" have allowed me to still be alive to debate the topic!

 

[Deb in IA]

Originally posted by Tinks
And do you know what's sad, Deb?? How many "private practices" are left??? My dad's Internal Medicine group is the last lone holdout in our large city---the rest were bought out by the Hospital. When I practiced our salaries were determined by the insurance/ HMOs. It is going downhill, folks. The more it is regulated, the worse it gets. Just my opinion....no solutions from me!!!! ---other than if you think it is bad now, let the Government in!!!

I totally agree, Tinks.
You know when the whole "business" aspect of medicine started? When third party payors got involved, which directly coincided with the influx of technology into medicine. The price of health care shot up astronomically, and insurance companies saw this as a chance to make big bucks.

Sort of makes you wish for the days when doctors were paid with a dozen eggs or a loaf of bread, doesn't it?

 

[Deb in IA]

Originally posted by jrydberg
I think the fundamental point is that tests are no substitute for a good physician.

Tests are not the be all end all of health care.

You know what is the most important aspect of your doctor? What is between his or her ears.
And the second most important factor?
Their ability to communicate their rationale and reasoning and impression with you.


There are indeed many, many disorders for which there are NO diagnostic "tests" -- just the clinical acumen of the doctor.

 

[tinkerbeth]

Originally posted by jrydberg
I think the point is that Canada does not have to concern itself so much with defense spending precisely because the US does. You have the choice. We don't have that luxury. No one will fill the void for us.

We don't need anyone to fill that "void" as we are not into declaring war on people. As I said, I think the money is better spent on healthcare.

 

[EsmeraldaX]

Originally posted by Eeyore1954
Ah ... another hypothetical...

Since I am NOT a doctor and have no experience in providing healthcare beyond applying band-aids to cuts and ACE bandages to sprains, I honestly don't know what I'd do.

But if you'd be so kind as to wait for another 10 - 12 years, I'll apply to medical school, get my degree, finish a residency and internship, focusing on emergency medicine, because that seems to be the focus on your hypothetical... and then I'll get back to you on what I'd do. 'K?

If you can't answer "hypothetical" questions, then how can you give such clear reasons as to why someone who doesn't have the money up front to pay for care would not pay?

 

[jrydberg]

It's not an issue of whether Canada is into declaring war on people or not (do you honestly think the US is "into" that?). War can find you whether you want it or not. You don't need to worry about it because others do.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Deb in IA
[B

There are indeed many, many disorders for which there are NO diagnostic "tests" -- just the clinical acumen of the doctor. [/B]

-------------------------

That may very well be true, but in this specific case I believe there are diagnostic tests for mono - are there not?

And obviously if there are disorders for which there are "NO" diagnostic "tests", then one would not have to be concerned about them "not" having been done - right? Kind of a silly statement, don't you think?

 

[Tinks]

We don't need anyone to fill that "void" as we are not into declaring war on people. As I said, I think the money is better spent on healthcare.

Wow...you just go on and keep loving that health care system you've got. I'll take ours any day. My Canadian Aunt was diagnosed with breast cancer ( in Ottawa). They said "We need to do an MRI to find out where the cancer is...come back in a month and we'll do that." She had the MRI. "Yep it's cancer and now we know where it is.... Come back in a month and we'll do surgery to remove it." Then the surgery. "okay, now you can start Chemo...in a month or two."

Nice system. Here she would have been diagnosed, MRIed and cut upon within a week time span. Our system isn't perfect, but I'd take it any day over yours. Maybe there aren't as many people speaking out against your healthcare because they're dead

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by Tinks
Nice system. Here she would have been diagnosed, MRIed and cut upon within a week time span.

------------------------

Providing she had some sort of health coverage..

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by damo
I totally agree that Canada benefits from having a neighbour with a big gun but I don't think that the US is putting themselves out trying to help us so that we can provide health care for our citizens.

Of course we're not doing it so that you can provide health care for your citizens. But for you to imply that somehow your priorities are more noble than ours when you depend on us to take care of your number one priority (self defense) is more than a little disingenuous.

 

[newholiday]

privilege
when youre 18 you have the choice of either attending college or going to work
why wouldnt someone have health care? I can see if you are physically disabled or elderly then it should be provided
if you want health care - go to work!

 

[arminnie]

Originally posted by C.Ann
However, for some seniors Medicare is their only choice and is not the "be all to end all" that many people assume it is.. My DH has been on Medicare for going on 5 years now and they have never paid one DIME for any of his medical care.. We have a supplemental policy that we pay for each month that is basically for emergencies only (if we happen to be somewhere that doesn't have a VA hospital nearby). We were forced to turn his healthcare over to the VA because the supplemental policy would cover only $500 worth of medications per year and my DH's medications run in the THOUSANDS per year

While I don't doubt your problems with Medicare - especially when dealing with presciption coverage, I hope people don't get the impression that Medicare is worthless. At least where I live there are many, many seniors who are using Medicare and a supplemental (like you can get from AARP) and are very happy with their coverage.

My mother found out that she had breast cancer at 65 and died from it ten years later. During that time she had a tremendous amount of medical care including oxygen that was paid for by Medicare and her supplemental. My father is 83 and I take care of his finances and I can tell you that Medicare has been paying a lot of "dimes" for his medical care.

I have two friends (one 45 and one 55) that receive disability through social security and are also covered quite well by Medicare and a supplemental.

Both of my parents were in the military and would have been eligible for care at the VA hospital (which is right here in town) if they had needed it.

I hope your husband is receiving adequate care and doing well.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by arminnie
While I don't doubt your problems with Medicare - especially when dealing with presciption coverage, I hope people don't get the impression that Medicare is worthless. At least where I live there are many, many seniors who are using Medicare and a supplemental (like you can get from AARP) and are very happy with their coverage.

My mother found out that she had breast cancer at 65 and died from it ten years later. During that time she had a tremendous amount of medical care including oxygen that was paid for by Medicare and her supplemental. My father is 83 and I take care of his finances and I can tell you that Medicare has been paying a lot of "dimes" for his medical care.

I have two friends (one 45 and one 55) that receive disability through social security and are also covered quite well by Medicare and a supplemental.

Both of my parents were in the military and would have been eligible for care at the VA hospital (which is right here in town) if they had needed it.

I hope your husband is receiving adequate care and doing well.

----------------------------------------

That's very interesting - to say the least.. How much did Medicare pay towards your parents medications? All, some, none? Medicare - as a stand-alone policy - is not adequate coverage at all.. Combine it with a supplemental policy and it's the supplemental policy that covers the majority of the actual medical bills (minus co-pays and such) with the catch being that most supplemental policies severely limit the $$ paid for medications (or at least in our area they do).. Add another healthcare option (such as the VA) and one policy begins cancelling out others - leaving gaping holes all over the place.. It leaves patients in a Catch-22 situation where you have to decide (1) Do you want to be covered for hospital stays and little, if anything, else.. (2) Do you want to be covered for hospital stays, out-patient tests, partial coverage of doctors visits - but not be able to pay for the necessary medications that are prescribed.. (3) Do you want to be able to obtain the daily medications necessary to stay alive (with a co-pays of course) but settle for lack of adequate healthcare as a trade-off..

Eventually all of the patient assets will be depleted (and depending upon the seriousness of the medical conditions it may be "sooner" rather than "later") and what happens then? The patient ends up on welfare and who pays for it? The taxpayer..

As for my DH - he's doing as well as can be expected.. His healthcare is far from adequate, but with all of the daily medications he needs to take just to stay alive for another day, it's a trade-off we have had to make.. Thanks for asking - I appreciate it.. Sorry about your Mom - and I hope your Dad continues to do well..

 

[CajunDixie]

Well if the people do not pay back on the loans, they should be prosecuted accordingly, as with any loan.

But I think most people would make the payments if they were given the chance.


I would be interested in seeing the actual numbers here. I'm only guessing that is the occasional patient. I truly think most people can pay and will pay their bills. Otherwise the whole credit system (credit cards, loans etc.) would have dissapeared long ago.

I work for an EMS billing service and I would gladly take $5, yes thats five dollars, a month on any of our outstanding bills. I just billed for June and I'd guess 85% of the outstanding bills havent had a payment in 90 days and I had to add interest. Only about 6 patients have set up payment plans...those I charge no interest on. Some of the outstanding bills are people with no insurance, people that only owe their deductible, or people that are just too **** lazy to mail, call or drop off their insurance information so I can file the claim with their insurance. I'll set up a payment plan for anyone regardless of their income.

No - you're not lost.. LOL But I think you may be confused about what each of these programs will or won't pay for; what the guidelines are to qualify; and how many people fall through the cracks because of the way these programs are managed..

Medicare to me is lousy. For us we cannot bill a patient that has medicare/medicaid and a supplemental insurance. For example Joe Smith is diabetic and doesnt watch his diet and drinks a few beers and calls the EMS because he isnt feeling well. EMS shows up and treats him but he insists on still going to the hospital. Total bill might be around $750....Medicare might pay around $270 and supplemental around $77. The rest I have to "adjust" and we cannot bill anyone for this amount......I just have to report it then make it disappear.

On the other hand I have Mr Rich Dude who has tons of money and is on Medicare and a Supplemental. He calls for and EMS for medical reasons and is taken to the hospital he requests. Again I can only bill Medicare and Supplemental.......the rest is adjusted.

Then there is Friendly Old Guy.....gets way too many supplies from Medicare and doesnt know what to do with the surplus.....Medicare keeps sending him more than he requires.....extras now go in the trash.

 

[Eeyore1954]

Originally posted by EsmeraldaX
If you can't answer "hypothetical" questions, then how can you give such clear reasons as to why someone who doesn't have the money up front to pay for care would not pay?

I don't believe I said they would not pay; however, the possibility of nonpayment exists whenever someone asks for a payment plan. Most healthcare providers expect payment in full at the time of service unless you make other arrangements in advance. That's only fair to the provider and the patient.

BTW, it's not that I cannot answer hypothetical questions ... I am certainly capable. It's just that I refuse to play those silly "what if" games because they serve no useful purpose in a debate.