Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by cynsaun
But see, here's where this doesn't work. Separation of Church and State! Unfortunately, this was a PUBLIC (government and tax payer funded), and you can't bring in religious beliefs.

Absolutely untrue. Children cannot be forced to "leave their religious beliefs at the door". Separation of church and state means that the school (state) can't promote religion, but it also means that the state (school) can't prohibit the free exercise of a student's religion.

 

[wvrevy]

I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

That shirt was likely to cause fights, and SHOULD have, under the most basic of dress codes, been banned because of that. Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Absolutely untrue. Children cannot be forced to "leave their religious beliefs at the door". Separation of church and state means that the school (state) can't promote religion, but it also means that the state (school) can't prohibit the free exercise of a student's religion.

Exactly correct....Students are free to walk down the halls praying for all they're worth that they'll pass the test they forgot to study for (and I'm sure they do ), but the school can't force them to do so. (or not to do so, for that matter, unless it's disrupting other people in the process).

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

That shirt was likely to cause fights, and SHOULD have, under the most basic of dress codes, been banned because of that. Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

Curious: do you feel having a "gay appreciation day" has the same potential to disrupt the classroom? Obviously, it disrupted this particular student we know, and who knows how many others?

 

[poohandwendy]

Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

I would agree had the school not sponsored a day for a specific group. They, in effect, introduced a situation likely to be disruptive to the school experience. If this were a private school or if this kid wore it for the fun of it, I would agree with you. IMO, the school invited this sort of protest. It is totally inappropriate and disruptive, IMHO, for a public school to promote any group.

PUBLIC schools should not be indocrinating beliefs, even if those beliefs are widely accepted and considered enlightened. It has no place in school.

How about a Christian appreciation day? Anyone willing to guess how disruptive that would be for those who do not believe that Christ was the savior? Hmmmm?

 

[AirForceRocks]

Exactly correct....Students are free to walk down the halls praying for all they're worth that they'll pass the test they forgot to study for (and I'm sure they do ),

What is that old saying? So long as there are tests, there will always be school prayer?

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

That shirt was likely to cause fights, and SHOULD have, under the most basic of dress codes, been banned because of that. Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

Yes, this post says it all.

I also feel that the boy wearing the T-shirt must have a lot of issues. Why would he feel the need to express his dislike of homosexuality on a T-shirt? Perhaps maybe he is unsure of his own sexuality?

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Yes, this post says it all.

I also feel that the boy wearing the T-shirt must have a lot of issues. Why would he feel the need to express his dislike of homosexuality on a T-shirt? Perhaps maybe he is unsure of his own sexuality?

Why does anyone feel the need to express their like or dislike of something on their clothing? Because they can.

 

[poohandwendy]

Perhaps maybe he is unsure of his own sexuality?

Oh come on, that is ridiculous. That sort of stereotypical 'if he is homophobic, he must be a closet gay' is no better than derogative gay stereotypes.

 

[frustrated]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
Yes, this post says it all.

I also feel that the boy wearing the T-shirt must have a lot of issues. Why would he feel the need to express his dislike of homosexuality on a T-shirt? Perhaps maybe he is unsure of his own sexuality?

Or maybe he was just offended. We rag on DH's employer every year when he is given MLK Day off, but works pres. day! Sometimes it is just necessary to make a point! I will say however, that the shirt did bother me, and I thought MHopkins2 gave a good description to my irritation with it.

 

[snappyjo]

Originally posted by treesinger
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38758




The adminstrator says to "leave your beliefs in the car" but the school doesn't have to leave it's beliefs about homosexuality out of school?

Why should the school have to stop proselytizing for the gay lifestyle, there Liberals they feel they know it all and there is no need for disagreement.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Oh come on, that is ridiculous. That sort of stereotypical 'if he is homophobic, he must be a closet gay' is no better than derogative gay stereotypes.

Well, thats not really what I meant. I meant that teenagers really want to kind of conform to the male/female stereotype, and sometimes they aren't as accepting of other people who are different. Perhaps when he looks back on the T-shirt episode in a few years he will wonder why he felt the need to wear it.

Just a theory, no one else has to agree with me.

I'll get to the next two, next time.

 

[sugermouse]

Come on you all! This kid was in a school. It wasn't the street corner, it wasn't a friggin` park, it was school. And I go to a high school, and they do things differently. You can't wear just anything, say just anything or use just anything in school and say, "Hey man, its cool... I got freedom of speech".

It doesn't work like that. Its a school. I go to a high school every mon. - fri. and you do things there way. And having someone preaching to you on there T- Shirt pisses a lot of kids off. They will go to church or where ever if they want to.

I mean you don't go to work surronded by people with shirts that say, "Join my religion or burn" do you?

I think that they did the right thing. The kid was over the line. If this wasn't at school it would be cool, but one you get on campus, you lose some of your freedoms.

 

[faithinkarma]

sorry, double post as I tried to correct my spelling

 

[faithinkarma]

It would be interesting to know why the school decided to have a gay appreciation day. Certainly whatever the reason, the name seems inappropriate. Is one supposed to appreciate gays in the same way one appreciates teachers on T A day? Unlikely.

Is gay appreciation day something that is cropping up in many schools? And, if not, did this particular school institute it beacuse they have had problems with gays and straight students not getting along? Was it perhaps something the administration came up with to attempt to foster better relations?

While it makes no difference to the legality of wearing the t shirt, the reasons behind the gay appreciation day would certainly affect my views.


If it was done in an attempt to promote better feelings between two groups, and someone showed up wearing an anti gay t shirt, that would be one thing. If the school misguidedly decided that a gay appreciation day would be a pc thng to do, then that is a whole other kettle of fish, and the student had every right to protest, in my book.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
Curious: do you feel having a "gay appreciation day" has the same potential to disrupt the classroom? Obviously, it disrupted this particular student we know, and who knows how many others?

Yes, but that's a disruption that SHOULD happen...Just as a celebration of black history disrupts the class' normal routine...Celebrating diversity is something that SHOULD be taught in schools....Particularly because it's obvious (from this kid, among others) that a lot of them aren't going to get it at home.

Disruption for teaching a lesson in tolerance is acceptable, disruption for the sake of intolerance and hatred is not. That pretty well sums up my opinion.

BTW...I would have NO problem with that kid staying home in protest or wearing that shirt to a school board meeting to speak up for his beliefs...Wearing the shirt to school is just looking for trouble (and I'd have probably suspended him for it...with regret that I couldn't punish his parents).

 

[cynsaun]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Absolutely untrue. Children cannot be forced to "leave their religious beliefs at the door". Separation of church and state means that the school (state) can't promote religion, but it also means that the state (school) can't prohibit the free exercise of a student's religion.

I'm not saying that he should have left his religious beliefs at the door, I'm merely saying that he doesn't have to wear it across his chest!

 

[cynsaun]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

That shirt was likely to cause fights, and SHOULD have, under the most basic of dress codes, been banned because of that. Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

Exactly!

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by sugermouse
Come on you all! This kid was in a school. It wasn't the street corner, it wasn't a friggin` park, it was school. And I go to a high school, and they do things differently. You can't wear just anything, say just anything or use just anything in school and say, "Hey man, its cool... I got freedom of speech".

It doesn't work like that. Its a school. I go to a high school every mon. - fri. and you do things there way. And having someone preaching to you on there T- Shirt pisses a lot of kids off. They will go to church or where ever if they want to.

I mean you don't go to work surronded by people with shirts that say, "Join my religion or burn" do you?

I think that they did the right thing. The kid was over the line. If this wasn't at school it would be cool, but one you get on campus, you lose some of your freedoms.

You are absolutely right, it is a SCHOOL. If this kid wore the shirt for the heck of it, I would totally agree. But he wore it on gay appreciation days. He was protesting what never should have needed to be protested in a PUBLIC SCHOOL. Schools have no business indocrinating/promoting beliefs, period.

That is what I have a problem with. The kid was wrong for wearing it, the school was wrong for having 'gay appreciation days'....just as wrong as if they had "Christian appreciation days''

It is wrong for a school to be completely hypocritical in expecting tolerance for one thing and being totally intolerant to opposition.
Especially when they forced the issue by inviting the dialog.

JMHO

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Yes, but that's a disruption that SHOULD happen...Just as a celebration of black history disrupts the class' normal routine...Celebrating diversity is something that SHOULD be taught in schools....Particularly because it's obvious (from this kid, among others) that a lot of them aren't going to get it at home.

Disruption for teaching a lesson in tolerance is acceptable, disruption for the sake of intolerance and hatred is not. That pretty well sums up my opinion.

BTW...I would have NO problem with that kid staying home in protest or wearing that shirt to a school board meeting to speak up for his beliefs...Wearing the shirt to school is just looking for trouble (and I'd have probably suspended him for it...with regret that I couldn't punish his parents).

Okay, I need to start out by saying this: I do not support that kid's message. In any way. I find it offensive and repugnant.

Now: so how do you decide what is a "good" disruption and what is a "bad" disruption, and who gets to make that decision?

I still like what PAW said: "Freedom of speech is not reserved for only those who are tolerant, tactful, enlightened and show compassion towards others."