Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[jrydberg]

Yes, but that's a disruption that SHOULD happen

So it is appropriate to support some political messages in school, but not others?

 

[faithinkarma]

Schools have no business indocrinating/promoting beliefs, period.

I see a difference between promoting tolerance of a lifestyle and promoting that lifestyle. It's not like they had banners up urging people to "switch teams".

 

[jrydberg]

In my view, a day set aside to "honor the alternate lifestyle" tends more towards promotion than tolerance. It seems that it's fine for the school to express a political view on this, but not for the student. Kinda ironic.

 

[MHopkins2]

Two interesting points in this article.

* The kid wore the shirt two days in a row, the Day and the Day After - it was on the second day that he got suspended. (Just in case anyone was still wondering if this was a sincere expression or ****headed potstirring.)

* This article refers to the day in question as a "Day of Silence," which is something a national gay tolerance group promotes. Very different animal from a school sponsored "Gay Appreciation Day." It's possible that both were going on, of course, but it's a different view than the first article.

 

[Maleficent13]

Here's a thought: why didn't the school have a "Tolerance of Diversity" day? Instead of singling out one group to be tolerant of, why not have a day dedicated to the tolerance of all people?

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I think the school was wrong, and I wouldn't allow my children to wear that shirt to school. I certainly don't agree with the shirt, but I cannot agree that it was disruptive (no more than a short skirt would be).

you've, obviously, never taught a class of freshmen during the springtime.

 

[poohandwendy]

Celebrating diversity is something that SHOULD be taught in schools....Particularly because it's obvious (from this kid, among others) that a lot of them aren't going to get it at home.

Public schools are NOT meant to teach morality.

I see a difference between promoting tolerance of a lifestyle and promoting that lifestyle. It's not like they had banners up urging people to "switch teams".

Just to clarify, I didn't mean promote or indocrinate to join that lifestyle. I was talking about promoting/indocrinating that one set of beliefs is RIGHT and if you disagree, you are wrong. (if that makes any more sense than what I previously wrote)

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Yes, but that's a disruption that SHOULD happen...Just as a celebration of black history disrupts the class' normal routine...Celebrating diversity is something that SHOULD be taught in schools....Particularly because it's obvious (from this kid, among others) that a lot of them aren't going to get it at home.

Disruption for teaching a lesson in tolerance is acceptable, disruption for the sake of intolerance and hatred is not. That pretty well sums up my opinion.

BTW...I would have NO problem with that kid staying home in protest or wearing that shirt to a school board meeting to speak up for his beliefs...Wearing the shirt to school is just looking for trouble (and I'd have probably suspended him for it...with regret that I couldn't punish his parents).

There should not be a black history month, a gay appreciation day, or any other "Celebration" of diversity. Accept people as people. recognize their similarities. we focus too much on differences, thereby alienating people far more than our so-called "celebrations os diversity" bring people together. Such ceremonies are nonsense & harm intercultural relations.

 

[poohandwendy]

The kid wore the shirt two days in a row, the Day and the Day After - it was on the second day that he got suspended. (Just in case anyone was still wondering if this was a sincere expression or ****headed potstirring.)

He should not have been allowed to wear it the second day, IMO. At that point, I agree, it was just ignorant.

* This article refers to the day in question as a "Day of Silence," which is something a national gay tolerance group promotes. Very different animal from a school sponsored "Gay Appreciation Day." It's possible that both were going on, of course, but it's a different view than the first article.

Under any name, it shouldn't be happening in a public school, IMO. I just disagree with schools taking political stances in any way.

 

[poohandwendy]

There should not be a black history month, a gay appreciation day, or any other "Celebration" of diversity. Accept people as people. recognize their similarities. we focus too much on differences, thereby alienating people far more than our so-called "celebrations os diversity" bring people together. Such ceremonies are nonsense & harm intercultural relations.

I totally agree.

(edited to add) But I only agree that it shouldn't happen in schools. Groups are free to celebrate anything the want.

 

[MHopkins2]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
Under any name, it shouldn't be happening in a public school, IMO. I just disagree with schools taking political stances in any way.

I'm not sure if this will help or not, but my understanding is that it's a totally voluntary, student run affair. It's sort of analogous to "Gay Day" at WDW, which contrary to popular hair-rending belief, is not sponsored or promoted by Disney.

 

[poohandwendy]

Yeah, it is better that the school isn't organizing it. But I still feel that if some students are allowed to make a political stand, others should be free to protest it.

 

[poohandwendy]

I would be interested to know if any of the students who did organize it wore shirts or buttons promoting the gay lifestyle?

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
Okay, I need to start out by saying this: I do not support that kid's message. In any way. I find it offensive and repugnant.

Now: so how do you decide what is a "good" disruption and what is a "bad" disruption, and who gets to make that decision?

I still like what PAW said: "Freedom of speech is not reserved for only those who are tolerant, tactful, enlightened and show compassion towards others."

1 - Yeah, I got that Actually, i admire you for it (defending free speech when it's speech you can't stand hearing is an honorable thing...one that the ACLU gets bashed for on a regular basis)

2 - That said, this isn't a "free speech" issue...The message of the day was supposed to be tolerance, and this kid comes in with a message CLEARLY designed to disrupt that. Again, if he does that in a school board meeting...or almost ANYWHERE else...I would be screaming for YOUR side of the argument if he was forced to leave. But a school must maintain order in order to teach, and speech that disturbs that order CAN (legally) be banned.

jryberg wrote: So it is appropriate to support some political messages in school, but not others?

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but "duh" Yes, it's appropriate to support a message of tolerance while condemning a message of hatred.....We aren't talking about gay marriage, abortion, the war in Iraq, taxes, or any other "political" statement. We're talking about giving kids the right to walk into school with shirts on saying "camel jockies go home"...Let's not pretend this kid is some kind of martyr for free speech.

wdwdvcdad wrote: There should not be a black history month, a gay appreciation day, or any other "Celebration" of diversity. Accept people as people. recognize their similarities. we focus too much on differences, thereby alienating people far more than our so-called "celebrations os diversity" bring people together. Such ceremonies are nonsense & harm intercultural relations.

For what it's worth, I agree with you...Unfortunately, too many people on my side of the political aisle have taken the concept and run with it, and now every group is upset if they don't get their own "day". The racial / diversity issue in this country isn't about to go away, and I don't think any number of special "days". "months", or celebrations is going to help change that. However, I DO think that the schools need to help out a bit, since it is fairly obvious that too many kids aren't getting any kind of teaching about the subject at home.

 

[poohandwendy]

I DO think that the schools need to help out a bit, since it is fairly obvious that too many kids aren't getting any kind of teaching about the subject at home.

So what about the parents who feel that their morality shoiuld be taught to your kids because you aren't teaching it in the home? This is exactly why I think schools should go out of their way to avoid political/moral stances, all of them. My thought on public schools: Don't preach...teach!!!! Leave the parenting to the parents.

 

[Pete's Mom]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
So what about the parents who feel that their morality shoiuld be taught to your kids because you aren't teaching it in the home? This is exactly why I think schools should go out of their way to avoid political/moral stances, all of them. My thought on public schools: Don't preach...teach!!!! Leave the parenting to the parents.

I am in 100% agreement with you! The school needs to stick to teaching my son math, english, language, science, etc. I will teach my son morals.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
So what about the parents who feel that their morality shoiuld be taught to your kids because you aren't teaching it in the home? This is exactly why I think schools should go out of their way to avoid political/moral stances, all of them. My thought on public schools: Don't preach...teach!!!!

Good point I forgot that not everybody's morality includes tolerance of people who want to live their life in a different way than you do You're right....I wouldn't want them teaching that kind of stuff at my kid's school.

It's a tough subject, but again, I guess I just don't consider showing kids that people that live a different lifestyle than they do are neither evil nor (insert word that describes a beaver's house)ed to hades for all eternity to be "preaching".

 

[Pete's Mom]

Originally posted by wvrevy
It's a tough subject, but again, I guess I just don't consider showing kids that people that live a different lifestyle than they do are neither evil nor (insert word that describes a beaver's house)ed to hades for all eternity to be "preaching".

Because it can't be done without disruption regardless of what side of the fence you are on. People are always going to complain or object. Think about the impact this incident has probably has on the school, students, and faculty.

 

[poohandwendy]

It's a tough subject, but again, I guess I just don't consider showing kids that people that live a different lifestyle than they do are neither evil nor (insert word that describes a beaver's house)ed to hades for all eternity to be "preaching".

I'm sure you don't, neither do I. But when we allow beliefs/morals to be taught in school we have to accept that someone, somewhere has their beliefs being trampled on. I don't want that to be mine any more than you do. Tolerance IS a two way street. Roll your eyes all you want, but people have the right to be *****what you and I consider to be**** ignorant, intolerant and prejudiced. Big emphasis on the fact that all people see things differently. They also have the right to teach their children what they believe to be true.

Again, this is why public schools have no business promoting morality.

 

[meandtheguys]

Originally posted by wvrevy
(insert word that describes a beaver's house)ed to hades for all eternity to be "preaching".

Due to serious medication issues, I have spent the last several minutes trying to figure out why you didn't just write "lodged!" No matter that it didn't make sense!