Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[katerkat]

I don't think this has anything to do with the separation of church and state. If the school paid for the student's shirt, then yes. But a student can wear a t-shirt with a Christian message, or a cross, or a Muslim headscarf, or whetver (as long as it fits in the uniform code.)

And I think the school overreacted. But I also think the kid wasn't being very Christian.

 

[cynsaun]

I totally missed that sentence, Malificent. This was the reason for the confusion with my posts! Sorry!

 

[faithinkarma]

I suspect that if the t shirt had said something like

" Gay is good, don't knock it til you've tried it",

the kid would have been told not to wear it just as quickly.

 

[Doug123]

Originally posted by cynsaun
I have a hard time grasping that they were promoting diversity by allowing him to wear that shirt, it's actually the complete opposite!

There DID NOT have their kid wear that shirt to highlight diversity. They had him wear the shirt to make a political statement. They went looking for controversy and debate.

Did Jesus too belittle others with the goal of converting them? As I said earlier, maybe these people should review their own belief system.

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by cynsaun
I totally missed that sentence, Malificent. This was the reason for the confusion with my posts! Sorry!

No problem whatsoever!

originally posted by katerkat

I don't think this has anything to do with the separation of church and state. If the school paid for the student's shirt, then yes. But a student can wear a t-shirt with a Christian message, or a cross, or a Muslim headscarf, or whetver (as long as it fits in the uniform code.) And I think the school overreacted. But I also think the kid wasn't being very Christian.

Exactly. Do I agree with the sentiment on his shirt? No. But I support his right to wear it.

Oh - and to the poster who said we were only supporting it because it had a "stupid bible quote" on it - you're barking up the wrong tree with me there. Call me agnostic.

 

[jrydberg]

I suspect that if the t shirt had said something like

" Gay is good, don't knock it til you've tried it",

the kid would have been told not to wear it just as quickly.

Actually, I expect he wouldn't have been told anything in that case. And that's the real issue. The school is promoting a particular political stand. Not that I think it's a great idea for the kid to wear the shirt, but the school is promoting certain beliefs over others when it tells him not to wear it.

 

[treesinger]

Whether or not this kid and his parents are good Christians is beside the point. The point is that he should be allowed to speak against a subject if a school goes out of its way to promote it.

Also, if it were "Love all Christians" day at school, and someone wanted to wear a shirt that said "More people have died in the name of God than by any other means in history", they should both have the right to express that. If the school doesn't want that controversy, they shouldn't then have a "Love all Christians" day.

 

[faithinkarma]

Whether or not this kid and his parents are good Christians is beside the point. The point is that he should be allowed to speak against a subject if a school goes out of its way to promote it.

Is there a difference between "promoting" something and "accepting" it?

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Is there a difference between "promoting" something and "accepting" it?

IMO, accepting something is allowing it to coexist peacefully with all other views. Promoting it is having a day dedicated to it. Again, JMHO.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
IMO, accepting something is allowing it to coexist peacefully with all other views. Promoting it is having a day dedicated to it. Again, JMHO.

ITA, Well said.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
IMO, accepting something is allowing it to coexist peacefully with all other views. Promoting it is having a day dedicated to it. Again, JMHO.

I should have phrased my question better. Is promoting acceptance of gays different from promoting homosexuality?

 

[wdwdvcdad]

Originally posted by cynsaun
But see, here's where this doesn't work. Separation of Church and State! Unfortunately, this was a PUBLIC (government and tax payer funded), and you can't bring in religious beliefs.

And, I don't think this kid's parents would have taken too kindly to having their kid be made an example!

You really do not understand the whole"separation" idea. religion is allowed in schools, in many different ways. There is something known as the "Lemon Test". This is the test that is used to determine the appropriateness of religious displays within our public schools. Look it up & get back to us. I am not at all religious, but a couple of things make me crazy about this whole debate. 1. The "separation of church & state" is supposed to be about the state mandatging or preferring a religion. It is not about individuals having, and espousing beliefs. 2. I think that people get a little crazy about relighion in schools. Recognizing that members of your community are of faith is not promoting that faith. The same group the cries & moans about diversity are the first group to rage against the idea of diversity in terms of recognizing the differences in religions.

 

[Betsyt82]

"You really do not understand the whole"separation" idea. religion is allowed in schools, in many different ways. There is something known as the "Lemon Test". This is the test that is used to determine the appropriateness of religious displays within our public schools. Look it up & get back to us. I am not at all religious, but a couple of things make me crazy about this whole debate. 1. The "separation of church & state" is supposed to be about the state mandatging or preferring a religion. It is not about individuals having, and espousing beliefs. 2. I think that people get a little crazy about relighion in schools. Recognizing that members of your community are of faith is not promoting that faith. The same group the cries & moans about diversity are the first group to rage against the idea of diversity in terms of recognizing the differences in religions."


Right on!

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
I should have phrased my question better. Is promoting acceptance of gays different from promoting homosexuality?

IMO, yes. Promoting acceptance of gays is promoting tolerance for all different people and lifestyles. Promoting homosexuality is promoting a specific lifestyle as better than another one, not the peaceful coexistance of all lifestyles. JMHO.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by Maleficent13
IMO, yes. Promoting acceptance of gays is promoting tolerance for all different people and lifestyles. Promoting homosexuality is promoting a specific lifestyle as better than another one, not the peaceful coexistance of all lifestyles. JMHO.

Thanks Maleficent13, Thats the way I interpreted it also. But I have been wrong so often lately, I wanted to know what others thought. As I understand it, the school did not have a day promoting homosexuality. They had a day promoting acceptance of gay people.

I have no idea how the legality of the t shirt will play out. But it does seem possible it was done to cause an incident. And, while it is regrettable that a young person was used to do this, that seems to be the way to get issues aired and solved. Make an issue and see what happens. It is a system that works.

 

[MHopkins2]

I've been struggling with this one, trying to pinpoint what bugs me about the shirt (beyond the obvious, of course), and I think I've finally hit on it... It's the "Be Ashamed" part, which is a direct message to specific classmate(s) and possibly teacher(s), and therefore unacceptable IMO. If that part were taped over, I'd be fine with him wearing "the rest," as much as I dislike the message.

Here's my admittedly not great analogy, of three cheerleading t-shirt slogans:

1) Cheerleaders Rock! fine

2) Cheerleaders Are the Most Beautiful Chicks Around! kind of snotty and also highly likely to tick off the feminazis, but acceptable

3) Cheerleaders - If You Want to Be One of Us, Get Your Fat *** Off the Couch! unacceptable, and not just for the swear word

Does that make any sense?

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by MHopkins2
I've been struggling with this one, trying to pinpoint what bugs me about the shirt (beyond the obvious, of course), and I think I've finally hit on it... It's the "Be Ashamed" part, which is a direct message to specific classmate(s) and possibly teacher(s), and therefore unacceptable IMO. If that part were taped over, I'd be fine with him wearing "the rest," as much as I dislike the message.

Here's my admittedly not great analogy, of three cheerleading t-shirt slogans:

1) Cheerleaders Rock! fine

2) Cheerleaders Are the Most Beautiful Chicks Around! kind of snotty and also highly likely to tick off the feminazis, but acceptable

3) Cheerleaders - If You Want to Be One of Us, Get Your Fat *** Off the Couch! unacceptable, and not just for the swear word

Does that make any sense?

I'm with you 100%! It is very much like how things operated on the ol DB. Debates were ok if they were civil, but once personal insults flew (like "be ashamed" on the t-shirt) things got out of hand.

 

[poohandwendy]

I think the school was wrong, and I wouldn't allow my children to wear that shirt to school. I certainly don't agree with the shirt, but I cannot agree that it was disruptive (no more than a short skirt would be).

Freedom of speech is not reserved for only those who are tolerant, tactful, enlightened and show compassion towards others.

I think the school was definitely wrong for having a 'gay appreciation day', not because of the group mentoned but because I feel NO group should be singled out and 'appreciated' in a public school environment. IMO, it does nothing but separate and highlight the differences. Diversity and acceptance cannot be force fed, they happen naturally through experiencing common interests and being exposed to ALL types of people. Singling out a group in favor, any group, causes more intolerance, IMHO.

I do not think this student would have worn that shirt had there not been a 'gay appreciation day'. If the message truly is acceptance, then that should be applied equally.

 

[Maleficent13]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I think the school was wrong, and I wouldn't allow my children to wear that shirt to school. I certainly don't agree with the shirt, but I cannot agree that it was disruptive (no more than a short skirt would be).

Freedom of speech is not reserved for only those who are tolerant, tactful, enlightened and show compassion towards others.

I think the school was definitely wrong for having a 'gay appreciation day', not because of the group mentoned but because I feel NO group should be singled out and 'appreciated' in a public school environment. IMO, it does nothing but separate and highlight the differences. Diversity and acceptance cannot be force fed, they happen naturally through experiencing common interests and being exposed to ALL types of people. Singling out a group in favor, any group, causes more intolerance, IMHO.

I do not think this student would have worn that shirt had there not been a 'gay appreciation day'. If the message truly is acceptance, then that should be applied equally.

*stands and claps* I especially like "Freedom of speech is not reserved for only those who are tolerant, tactful, enlightened and show compassion towards others. " ITA!

 

[ErikdaRed]

I'm pretty sure students don't get full first amendment rights anyways (as has been mentioned above). Although the student has every right to wear the shirt outside of school, he doesn't necessarily have the right to wear it in school. We had political tshirts and those critical of the school administration banned all the time.

I do think the subject matter is touchy and probably why this is getting such big fuss made over it.