Debate: Free speech a two-way street in school?

[minniepumpernickel]

I just wanted to say that I saw this boy on TV. He sounded very nutty. His motivation for wearing the T-shirt was to save the poor gay souls that won't be allowed into heaven. Maybe he needs to worry about his own life a little more.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by jrydberg
The reason it is fundamentally different is that, as the "appreciation day" noted, it is a lifestyle. Being black is not a lifestyle. It is a physical characteristic. I can be very good friends with a gay person but still disagree with the lifestyle (note that disagreeing with the lifestyle does not mean one believes the person to be inferior). I cannot be good friends with a black person if I think they are inferior. Big difference, IMO.

The school ought not promote political causes if it isn't prepared to hear the other side.

I love that argument..."I don't consider them to be inferior, just their lifestyle".

As if believing that their lifestyle will earn them eternal damnation while yours elevates you to eternity in the kingdom of heaven isn't the EXACT same thing

Funny, though, I don't remember making the choice to be attracted to the opposite sex, but obviously I did since that's the "lifestyle" I "chose".

 

[cardaway]

I would love to hear what the other side thinks should be done about the reality of the situation. If it's something other than "the gay/lesbian kids should keep their mouth shut about their choice" I would sincerely like to hear your ideas.

Personally I can't imagine it being a good idea for kids not to feel safe to talk about their side of things the way straight kids of the same age do all the time. Sadly I think it is still necessary to make efforts to give minorities to way to get their voice heard, like this day in school. IMO it's still necessary to have things liek this sanctioned by the school. Without these kind of days, the majority would make sure (one way or the other) that there would be NO mention of minority issues. That is what private school is for IMO. Public school should include the voice of ALL of the public.

 

[poohandwendy]

The thing is, until there is an understanding of how people become gay (genetics vs choice), there really is no 'minority status'. Unless we want to start giving minority status to every lifestyle, it still is a morality issue. And there will be no common ground on whether being gay is 'right' or 'wrong'.When/if it can be proven that gays are born gay, then it will be a different story. That is what I was getting at back when MH said I lost her...(although I probably still am not getting my point across succinctly)

I have tried hard to keep my personal beliefs out of my posts because mine are irrelevant and so are 'yours' (collectively). (but for what it is worth, I personally do not have any idea how gays became gay, and I really don't care, I think all people should be respected...and I raise my children that way) Because schools cannot cater to the moral beliefs of everyone, it is important that parents (not public schools) be the ones teaching their children the moral issues, IMO.

I know I still haven't made my point clearly, maybe someone else gets what I am saying and can do a better job, LOL

 

[poohandwendy]

I would love to hear what the other side thinks should be done about the reality of the situation. If it's something other than "the gay/lesbian kids should keep their mouth shut about their choice" I would sincerely like to hear your ideas.

I, personally, didn't know we were discussing gays rights to expressing themselves as a whole. I was debating the role of public schools in sanctioning specific group 'days'.

I think everyone has the right to be themselves. I just don't think public schools should be in the business of teaching morals or belief based issues.

 

[jrydberg]

I love that argument..."I don't consider them to be inferior, just their lifestyle".

Never said I consider their lifestyle to be inferior. If it makes 'em happy, more power to 'em as far as I'm concerned.

But people have a right to express opinions, regardless of how wrong they are Even if they offend.

I'd argue that people ought to be able to express the opinion that left-handed people with red hair are lazier and less intelligent. As long as they don't take action discriminating against left-handed red-haired people, IMO, it is their right to express the opinion.

In short, an opinion ought not be suppressed because it offends someone. In the end, just about everything will offend someone.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by wvrevy
I think the problem is, you are all assuming that "freedom of speech" extends to the classroom, and as someone has already pointed out, it doesn't. Anything that could potentially disrupt the classroom setting can be viewed as unacceptable, and the offending student can be removed. He would no more have the right to shout the n-word at the top of his lungs...and for the exact same reason: it would disrupt the learning atmosphere.

That shirt was likely to cause fights, and SHOULD have, under the most basic of dress codes, been banned because of that. Again, I'd liken it to another simpleton wearing a "Martin Luther King was a racist" t-shirt on the reverand's birthday...it's inappropriate in a SCHOOL.

Dont add and subtract facts to this case then try to pass judgement based on the original case.
If a kid got up and shouted ANY WORD in class he needs to be dealt with.

If the shirt is "likely to cause" fights one could say "gay acceptance day" is likely to do the same.

The school created this mess by trying to hold a student captive to the adminstration's idea of what is tolerant. I think the administration could use a lesson or two in tolerance.

I would be offended if my child's school had a "gay acceptance" day and I would support my child's right to voice his displeasure. That is the real world.

But then again, I am smart enough to keep my little one out of public school.

 

[cardaway]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
The thing is, until there is an understanding of how people become gay (genetics vs choice), there really is no 'minority status'. Unless we want to start giving minority status to every lifestyle, it still is a morality issue. And there will be no common ground on whether being gay is 'right' or 'wrong'.When/if it can be proven that gays are born gay, then it will be a different story. That is what I was getting at back when MH said I lost her...(although I probably still am not getting my point across succinctly)

What about religion? It sure does read like you are saying homosexuals are not a minority because it could be a choice. One certainly chooses to be part of a minority religion.

 

[cardaway]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I, personally, didn't know we were discussing gays rights to expressing themselves as a whole. I was debating the role of public schools in sanctioning specific group 'days'.

I only went there to make my point. Certainly you have seen the number of posts here making the argument that the school should have never put students in this position. Well my position is that IT IS necessary as long as there is the feeling by many that they must stay in some kind of virtual closet because their 'choice' is immoral and sons and daughters shouldn't be exposed to it.

IMO public school is going to include some things you find immoral since there are so many different, yet legit, sets of morals in our diverse public society (I can assure you there are things I wouldn't want my kids learning from folks thinking they are being moral). Deal with it or pay for private school.

 

[poohandwendy]

Originally posted by cardaway
What about religion? It sure does read like you are saying homosexuals are not a minority because it could be a choice. One certainly chooses to be part of a minority religion.

1) No, I don't see people involved in a religion as qualifying for minority status. As far as I know, there is no religion that qualifies for protection under 'minority' status or is recognized as a minority.
2) You are correct, I am totally saying that. As long as people believe it is a choice, how could gays have minority status? Are you saying there aren't people who believe it to be a choice?
3) What is a minority religion?

 

[N.Bailey]

Originally posted by cardaway
What about religion? It sure does read like you are saying homosexuals are not a minority because it could be a choice. One certainly chooses to be part of a minority religion.

Yes, a choosing religion is a CHOICE, and is why it is not ALLOWED in our public school's.

and a good example of why I do not thing anything to do with homosexuality should be taught in school either!

Why must people insist on being defined by their sexuality anyway? Is that who we are really, as people?

 

[poohandwendy]

Well my position is that IT IS necessary as long as there is the feeling by many that they must stay in some kind of virtual closet because their 'choice' is immoral and sons and daughters shouldn't be exposed to it.

I disagree with that. I don't think it is the public schools responsibility or authority to get involved with discussing or promoting what behavior is moral. Of course, they should do whatever possible to make sure the school environment is conductive to learning. Noone has said that anyone needs to stay in any closet. I am talking about the SCHOOLs part in making the determination that a belief is right. It is not their role. That is the role of parents. Regardless of the group/belief.

Deal with it or pay for private school.

Actually, that is exactly what private school is for, not public school. Public school should cater to the fact that they have many types of students, from all backgrounds. This is why they do not teach that Jesus Christ was savior, because it does nnot reflect the entire student populations beliefs. If you want your children to be taught beliefs, you send them to private schools. PSs should not be in the business of taking a favorable position based on ANY beliefs or lifestyle. Whether it be a popular belief or unpopular. Mine or yours or theirs.

This isn't about gays for me, it is about the role of public schools. I don't want them 'appreciating' any of my morals or beliefs or yours. They can avoid anyone feeling they need to stay in a virtual closet by making sure the kids treat eachother with respect, period. They don't have to go any further than that.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Good point I forgot that not everybody's morality includes tolerance of people who want to live their life in a different way than you do ".

That is grade A, 100% hypocracy.

What about tolerance for someone else's morals? Does that not count?

One man's homosexuality, is another man's degeneracy. A public school has no business, and neither do you, of telling a parent what morals should or should not be instilled in his/her children.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by poohandwendy
I guess I will address the points made by MH2

.

One camp thinks gays were born that way, period
One camp thinks they were born that way, but it is a defect and shouldn't be considered acceptable
One camp thinks they make a choice to be gay, but they don't care either way
One camp thinks they make a choice to be gay and that it is immoral and shouldn't be considered acceptable
Then there is the camp who is unsure of the origins, but has the live and let live attitude


,IMHO.

Hmm. At my camp we just fish and make smores over a campfire.

 

[wvrevy]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
That is grade A, 100% hypocracy.

What about tolerance for someone else's morals? Does that not count?

One man's homosexuality, is another man's degeneracy. A public school has no business, and neither do you, of telling a parent what morals should or should not be instilled in his/her children.

Why should I tolerate their idea of morals when they have no tolerance of anyone else's ? Again, there are plenty of private schools out there that teach their narrow-minded little view of the world, so they are free to take advantage of them. Public school should be about inclusion, not exclusion, which means that the broadest view should be taught, not the narrowest.

As for what I have the "business" telling another parent, I couldn't care less what they teach their child in the privacy of their own home, but that does not mean that their narrow-minded view of the world has any business being taught in a PUBLIC school. This is the EXACT same argument ignorant people use to object to the teaching of evolution in school rather than creationism, and I would object on the same grounds.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Absolutely ! If a kid doesn't want to sit next to that nasty (insert n-word here), the school shouldn't make him ! After all, their parents may think that blacks are the downfall of the white race, so why should the school get away with trying to TEACH them something different ? Martin Luther King appreciation day ?!? Not in MY family !!!

(sarcasm mode off)

As for the bible talking about how homosexuality is such an abomination. I shall resort to one of my favorite West Wing quotes:


No need for me to argue it when that quote pretty well sums it up for me. [/B]

That is a great quote. I love the West Wing despite my more conservative leanings. anyway...

That quote doesn't apply to my point of view. When I see a ***** and a ******, I know that they go together. To me, it makes common sense that men and women are meant to go together because of biology. I believe that that is what is right. Mature shows us this. Homosexuality is an extreme rarity in the animal world. Humans are animals, only intelligent enough to create shows like the West Wing.

I don't condemn gays from being gay or engaging in gay sexual activity. Not my business, I don't care, and I'm TOLERANT of them. But I also have the right to tell my children that it is unnatural. I don't need the bible to have this point of view, so religion doesn't apply.


**Edited to say that the censored words are "male member" and "female member"**

 

[jrydberg]

Why should I tolerate their idea of morals when they have no tolerance of anyone else's ? Again, there are plenty of private schools out there that teach their narrow-minded little view of the world, so they are free to take advantage of them. Public school should be about inclusion, not exclusion, which means that the broadest view should be taught, not the narrowest.

So let me get this straight... you're tolerant of anyone who agrees with you? And anyone else is narrow-minded? Very inclusive

BTW, public schools should be all about education. There seems to be a sentiment, particularly on the left, that schools ought to be more involved in a child's upbringing. Frankly, there is no substitute for parents and family. Schools ought not be in the business of teaching a particular set of morals. Do you really think that your morality is the only legitimate way of looking at things?

As for what I have the "business" telling another parent, I couldn't care less what they teach their child in the privacy of their own home, but that does not mean that their narrow-minded view of the world has any business being taught in a PUBLIC school. This is the EXACT same argument ignorant people use to object to the teaching of evolution in school rather than creationism, and I would object on the same grounds.

One minor detail... evolution is a scientific theory that has a significant impact on how science is taught in the school. How one views gays has little bearing on any class in school. In short, it's not the school's business. If you want your children to be brought up to be tolerant of such things, then set an example for them. The schools have nothing to do with it.

 

[Pyg Me]

Originally posted by wvrevy
Why should I tolerate their idea of morals when they have no tolerance of anyone else's ? Again, there are plenty of private schools out there that teach their narrow-minded little view of the world, so they are free to take advantage of them. Public school should be about inclusion, not exclusion, which means that the broadest view should be taught, not the narrowest.

As for what I have the "business" telling another parent, I couldn't care less what they teach their child in the privacy of their own home, but that does not mean that their narrow-minded view of the world has any business being taught in a PUBLIC school. This is the EXACT same argument ignorant people use to object to the teaching of evolution in school rather than creationism, and I would object on the same grounds.

Why should you tolerate "their idea of morals?" BECAUSE YOU ARE CRYING FOR TOLERANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a two way street. Part of your TOLERANCE is tolerating things you dont agree with.

When you call others "narrow minded" you highlight your intolerance.


Public school should be about reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic. In no way. shape, or form should the government be telling my kids what they should accept or what their morals should be. That is my job. If I do it wrong, then that is my problem.


It is painfully obvious that you want everyone to believe like you. You are the intolerant one.

 

[treesinger]

Originally posted by minniepumpernickel
I just wanted to say that I saw this boy on TV. He sounded very nutty. His motivation for wearing the T-shirt was to save the poor gay souls that won't be allowed into heaven. Maybe he needs to worry about his own life a little more.

AGAIN, his motivation, religion or nuttiness has nothing to do with his RIGHT to make his point of view known if another is FORCED upon him by a PUBLIC school. Now, if he just did this out of the blue for no reason, then he should be branded a nuisance and suspended if necessary. But the school brought this on itself because of their gay appreciation day. Had they NOT had gay appreciation day, they would have the high ground to say, "We didn't invite this hate speech and he's being suspended."

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Originally posted by Pyg Me
Why should you tolerate "their idea of morals?" BECAUSE YOU ARE CRYING FOR TOLERANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is a two way street. Part of your TOLERANCE is tolerating things you dont agree with.

When you call others "narrow minded" you highlight your intolerance.


Public school should be about reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic. In no way. shape, or form should the government be telling my kids what they should accept or what their morals should be. That is my job. If I do it wrong, then that is my problem.


It is painfully obvious that you want everyone to believe like you. You are the intolerant one.

If you believe that public school should only be about reading, writing...etc ., do you also feel that the pledge is inappropriate too? The pledge of allegiance deviates from those three elements that you mentioned. My point is that public school does touch on subjects that may cross some moral boundaries. What about classes like philosophy?