DDPers of "the world" unite, have the tip removed for bad service.

[kaytieeldr]

It seems like many of you are taking this personally. The OP is allowed to voice a negative experience. I have read hundreds myself on Dis. He shouldn't 'have' to post of his positive experiences in the thread because that wasn't the issue of the thread

I agree. I'm not asking for a report of the positive experiences (although it'd be interesting if, in another thread, the OP would report what made Mikeasaurus so outstanding ). I don't even necessarily disagree that Dining Plan Guests should be able to deny the server her or his tip if the situation warrants. I do, though, disagree that two negative dinners out of sixteen "proves" that free Dining Plan users are treated like second-class diners.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

I applaud that the tip is being removed from DDP, and further I am excited that the majority of people think it will no longer be worth it and will dine off site. Guess what, that will thin the heard of the bad servers. That is really how the economics of the situation will pan out. Ask an economics professor at your local community college

I am nearly 100% sure that any expert in microeconomics would tell you that Disney charging the same price for the meal plan but no longer covering the tip amounts to a 10-20% price increase to the consumer depending upon generosity, a significant cost reduction to Disney, and depending upon the restaurant and the generosity of the public, less money in the pockets of servers. Then he'd probably say something to the effect of. "You the consumer are getting a 15% price hike. Do you REALLY need a Ph. D. in economics to tell you that is a bad thing?"

If he went into more detail, he'd say the theoretical effects upon the quality of service would be mixed. On the one hand, tips are no longer guaranteed which would be an incentive for better service. On the other, most waiters know tips are as dependent upon the mood of the diners, the kitchen staff, and other things beyond their control. And waiters know management is watching them and that if they slack off, they may not have a job to get those guaranteed 18% tips if they do. So the amount of incentive to work harder is very much in doubt.
But there will also be a disincentive for better service and in some cases it may be large. At the end of the day, the server will likely have less in their pocket regardless of how well they serve. The reality is that an 18% average at any restaurant regardless of the level of service is not a given. At a buffet, it will be very unlikely. So we have what amounts to a pay cut. Servers aren't dumb. They can do math as well as I. Well take money out of your workers' pockets and what happens to the attitude of those workers? What happens to the turnover of those workers? Far from thinning the herd of bad, servers, it may just thin the herd of good ones.

As to everyone dining off site I wouldn't count on it. Many a WDW restaurant was next to impossible to walk up to long before the meal plan came into being and would be if it ended completely tomorrow. Oh some of restaurants in lower traffic areas of the resort may suffer. But many of those aren't even Disney owned. Some of these aren't lacking for business because the food and service are poor though. We found some of them quite good. They simply didn't have as good a location (or didn't have characters.)

I did not keep experiencing bad service, this stems from one bad experience which caused me to consider how the system was put together in the first place and I believe that forcing the customer to tip is bad policy

So you're basing all your theory on one bad experience? My Word. The direct evidence you report contradicts your own theory that you didn't even think all of the way through in the first place.

 

[DisneylandForever]

(Psst! DisneylandForever! How's my grammar? )

Excellent!

 

[wilde_oscar]

I agree. I'm not asking for a report of the positive experiences (although it'd be interesting if, in another thread, the OP would report what made Mikeasaurus so outstanding ). I don't even necessarily disagree that Dining Plan Guests should be able to deny the server her or his tip if the situation warrants. I do, though, disagree that two negative dinners out of sixteen "proves" that free Dining Plan users are treated like second-class diners.

I either over stated, or mis-stated... I was trying to find my copy of rules for grammar and style in the third grade and was distracted. The manager at Tony's and the server at Boma made us feel second class.

Mikeasauras had/has great timing, greeted every group as they were seated, did some slight of hand and magic tricks, was at the table as the characters came around to take our pics so that both of us were in the pics, which he did for everyone in his section. Our coffee and OJ was never less then half full, the bill showed up right as we were done eating and in a blink he had swiped our card for payment OOP and was back with the bill to sign. He was up beat, and excited to be there. All this at 8am. If you goto Breakfastasouras ask for Mike a souras, even if you have to wait, it is all worth it. We are gonna have breakfast with him twice this year's trip.

 

[wilde_oscar]

I am nearly 100% sure that any expert in microeconomics would tell you that Disney charging the same price for the meal plan but no longer covering the tip amounts to a 10-20% price increase to the consumer depending upon generosity, a significant cost reduction to Disney, and depending upon the restaurant and the generosity of the public, less money in the pockets of servers. Then he'd probably say something to the effect of. "You the consumer are getting a 15% price hike. Do you REALLY need a Ph. D. in economics to tell you that is a bad thing?"

If he went into more detail, he'd say the theoretical effects upon the quality of service would be mixed. On the one hand, tips are no longer guaranteed which would be an incentive for better service. On the other, most waiters know tips are as dependent upon the mood of the diners, the kitchen staff, and other things beyond their control. And waiters know management is watching them and that if they slack off, they may not have a job to get those guaranteed 18% tips if they do. So the amount of incentive to work harder is very much in doubt.
But there will also be a disincentive for better service and in some cases it may be large. At the end of the day, the server will likely have less in their pocket regardless of how well they serve. The reality is that an 18% average at any restaurant regardless of the level of service is not a given. At a buffet, it will be very unlikely. So we have what amounts to a pay cut. Servers aren't dumb. They can do math as well as I. Well take money out of your workers' pockets and what happens to the attitude of those workers? What happens to the turnover of those workers? Far from thinning the herd of bad, servers, it may just thin the herd of good ones.

As to everyone dining off site I wouldn't count on it. Many a WDW restaurant was next to impossible to walk up to long before the meal plan came into being and would be if it ended completely tomorrow. Oh some of restaurants in lower traffic areas of the resort may suffer. But many of those aren't even Disney owned. Some of these aren't lacking for business because the food and service are poor though. We found some of them quite good. They simply didn't have as good a location (or didn't have characters.)



So you're basing all your theory on one bad experience? My Word. The direct evidence you report contradicts your own theory that you didn't even think all of the way through in the first place.

I'm willing to pay more for better service... I disagree with your conclusions. In the history of the universe, I don’t think providing poor service will allow you to pass on your inferior genetic material, thus causing the extinction of breed.

 

[rentayenta]

I don't watch the Sopranos. And I don't take this message board seriously enough to start a thread off by advising everyone that I'm only writing a lengthy post to preemptively thwart all of the "glib" or kneejerk" responses. Nor do I even make mention of how much my schooling cost. Perhaps you should re-read my previous messages? The grammatical advice was merely in addition to my opinion(s) on this topic. It was hardly an attack. I never bother correcting grammar on DIS. Mine is far from perfect. But by the way you started off your first post, you were practically begging somebody to mention it. I did, and moved on. Have you? In each of your responses to me, you completely glossed over my thoughts on the whole DP issue.

But you do watch Nip/Tuck!

 

[disneyfan2kids]

.... your writing indicates otherwise. Unless you're ESL, of course.

DisneylandForever: There's no way I'm throwing my hat into this ring...but I have to say that this is without a doubt one of the funniest comments I've ever read. I literally spit my drink out when I read it!

 

[DiszyDean]

I am nearly 100% sure that any expert in microeconomics would tell you that Disney charging the same price for the meal plan but no longer covering the tip amounts to a 10-20% price increase to the consumer depending upon generosity, a significant cost reduction to Disney, and depending upon the restaurant and the generosity of the public, less money in the pockets of servers. Then he'd probably say something to the effect of. "You the consumer are getting a 15% price hike. Do you REALLY need a Ph. D. in economics to tell you that is a bad thing?"

If he went into more detail, he'd say the theoretical effects upon the quality of service would be mixed. On the one hand, tips are no longer guaranteed which would be an incentive for better service. On the other, most waiters know tips are as dependent upon the mood of the diners, the kitchen staff, and other things beyond their control. And waiters know management is watching them and that if they slack off, they may not have a job to get those guaranteed 18% tips if they do. So the amount of incentive to work harder is very much in doubt.
But there will also be a disincentive for better service and in some cases it may be large. At the end of the day, the server will likely have less in their pocket regardless of how well they serve. The reality is that an 18% average at any restaurant regardless of the level of service is not a given. At a buffet, it will be very unlikely. So we have what amounts to a pay cut. Servers aren't dumb. They can do math as well as I. Well take money out of your workers' pockets and what happens to the attitude of those workers? What happens to the turnover of those workers? Far from thinning the herd of bad, servers, it may just thin the herd of good ones.

As to everyone dining off site I wouldn't count on it. Many a WDW restaurant was next to impossible to walk up to long before the meal plan came into being and would be if it ended completely tomorrow. Oh some of restaurants in lower traffic areas of the resort may suffer. But many of those aren't even Disney owned. Some of these aren't lacking for business because the food and service are poor though. We found some of them quite good. They simply didn't have as good a location (or didn't have characters.)



So you're basing all your theory on one bad experience? My Word. The direct evidence you report contradicts your own theory that you didn't even think all of the way through in the first place.

Pretty much the best post of the entire thread.

You are over-simplifying the problem to say that if you make the DDP tip optional, it will fix poor servers and turn them into better ones or that only the better servers will stay.

 

[wilde_oscar]

Do you think that tipping bad service should be manditory?

 

[Praying Colonel]

.

 

[DiszyDean]

Do you think that tipping bad service should be manditory?

I don't agree that tipping bad service should be mandatory. I agree that you should be allowed to indicate somehow what % of tip you want to leave and Disney covers up to 18%. That way, no price increase to the consumer and the customer still dictates the tip.

Regardless of which method is used, automatic tip, no tip included or customer-dictated tip, I do not think that it will have an impact on the level of service you receive. The disposition of the server you happen to get will determine that.

 

[tjhtygeverve]

Ah but for this year's trip my ADRs are not linked to my room reservation!

My friend I mentioned, who serves full-time at the castle, has told me in detail that the seating cards, and dr systems at each podium have detailed descriptions of a member or two of each party ie. female/ss=short sleeve orange/vegas spelled on front of shirt in sequin, color of hair, black reeboks, number in party, children ages, clothing, hair color etc. and all of those small computerized boards the cm's have around their necks in the dining rooms all communicate with each other throughout the parks, since this is where the walk out problem occurs most often(parks), and once you check in this description is in there for the day . PLUS, cameras are everywhere, watching everything.

If you dine, walk out, and even if it isnt linked to your room, they have sufficient evidence on your description to find you and remove you from disney property FOREVER. All front of house cm's are currently being educated on all of this so they can call security promptly(which all table service restaurants have plain clothes and full visual security strategically stationed to stop walk outs). Thus putting an end to people who walk out after consuming food.. This is a definite no/no in the new age of disney dinging , and the orange county sheriffs department will just eat that stuff up.... no pun intended...
I would just be careful... I have heard of horrid stories from my friends whom work there and the statements they have to fill out against guests who opt to do this as it is considered theft. Disney dances lightly around it and goes for permanent banishment from the park to keep it out of the news instead of an arrest in the papers.

As far as the cast member who may get the grautity anyway added to their pay check if the guest complains and then getting fired for it, or in trouble, it would take a total of 6-12 of these incidences in a 1-year period for the cm to get fired. I just checked with my friend and it all depends on the point system the union and the company agreed upon during contract negotiations. If a server cannot learn from that many points or warnings then they are helpless...So, it is highly unlikely they would be let go, unless they just dont care. An AVERAGE TIPPED SERVER AT wdw/orlando grosses over 50k/year, so i would think they would learn quickly to keep this position.

I would be frustrated too if a server didnt bring me water to take my meds. So, I understand your frustrations. If it happens again, remember there is a wonderful chilled water fountain in the waiting area between jiko and boma... good luck.

 

[NMW]

Ug, do you take yourself too serious? As Buddy Cole would say... all this fuss about a couple extra "SSSSS". I have a good education, I was not an English Major, and I have found that English Majors tend to attack grammar and spelling when they have no basis to rebuke your argument otherwise. I was a math and physics major... the world should be amazed I can spell at all.

As for being a professional food critic… nope, not what I said, just what you heard when you read the words. We eat out a lot, and I offer the more common man opinion on the experience. I write the way I would talk to someone, not talk down to someone as you seem to think.

I worked in a fine place to shove food into your mouth whole, where folks like the wine and the live music. In other discussions I have been attacked be being low brow, fine I am low brow, I do not have a stick in a place that does not see sunshine very often… do you?

Lemme guess, you spend hours a week correcting the grammar on the Sopranos, and get the vapors at every malapropism?

As for credibility, you make my point by not attacking the argument but attacking the person. It is a internet board, how serious do you take it?

Hah! I was an English major (BA English) and I can't spell to save my life. I constantly ask my rather bright 10 year old how to spell certain words. Without spell-check in college I would have been sunk. In high school, I used my father as my spell-check. He was also an English major, but a great speller like my son. I guess the good spell gene skips a generation!

 

[wilde_oscar]

My friend I mentioned, who serves full-time at the castle, has told me in detail that the seating cards, and dr systems at each podium have detailed descriptions of a member or two of each party ie. female/ss=short sleeve orange/vegas spelled on front of shirt in sequin, color of hair, black reeboks, number in party, children ages, clothing, hair color etc. and all of those small computerized boards the cm's have around their necks in the dining rooms all communicate with each other throughout the parks, since this is where the walk out problem occurs most often(parks), and once you check in this description is in there for the day . PLUS, cameras are everywhere, watching everything.

If you dine, walk out, and even if it isnt linked to your room, they have sufficient evidence on your description to find you and remove you from disney property FOREVER. All front of house cm's are currently being educated on all of this so they can call security promptly(which all table service restaurants have plain clothes and full visual security strategically stationed to stop walk outs). Thus putting an end to people who walk out after consuming food.. This is a definite no/no in the new age of disney dinging , and the orange county sheriffs department will just eat that stuff up.... no pun intended...
I would just be careful... I have heard of horrid stories from my friends whom work there and the statements they have to fill out against guests who opt to do this as it is considered theft. Disney dances lightly around it and goes for permanent banishment from the park to keep it out of the news instead of an arrest in the papers.

As far as the cast member who may get the grautity anyway added to their pay check if the guest complains and then getting fired for it, or in trouble, it would take a total of 6-12 of these incidences in a 1-year period for the cm to get fired. I just checked with my friend and it all depends on the point system the union and the company agreed upon during contract negotiations. If a server cannot learn from that many points or warnings then they are helpless...So, it is highly unlikely they would be let go, unless they just dont care. An AVERAGE TIPPED SERVER AT wdw/orlando grosses over 50k/year, so i would think they would learn quickly to keep this position.

I would be frustrated too if a server didnt bring me water to take my meds. So, I understand your frustrations. If it happens again, remember there is a wonderful chilled water fountain in the waiting area between jiko and boma... good luck.

Yeah, thanks for the info... I was not referring to a dine and dash. I let the manager know up front that service was bad enough that I have to leave, and I don’t wait till I have finished my meal leaving full after bad service. This has happened to me twice over the years. As for the system of which you speak, yeah they are getting better at collection of information, but at CRT you pay for the meal when you make the reservation, so dine and dash is not really an option is it? Further who is inputting this data? They are doing all this as you walk though the park to your reservation? Someone in a security room is watching you on camera as you pass though the card scanners? Common that level of detail is not practical. The person at the podium in pretty much every TS we ate at last year didn’t have time to stop and input data about what we look like into a computer, and the servers might be able to recall a description and put out an APB but that does not change the fact that, if I have to walk out, I’ll let them know I am not paying and why. But next trip down, I’ll stop in and ask how much data they have on the podium.

And a note on the having to leave for bad service, at WDW if it is so bad you have to leave, where are you going to goto next? This is not like restaurant row in the suburbs near your home, everyplace is book up solid and they turn away anyone with out a resie. So that would be a bold step indeed, since you would be stuck with CS at best.

Ok the servers are on a demerit system, X number of complaints before you are gone... how does knowing that eventually they will be fired help me out after receiving bad service? Let's say your Doctor has a bad day, kills a couple of patients by writing the wrong script, how many demerits (dead patients) does she get before she gets fired?

Again someone whose take away from the story was that I had to wait a bit for a glass of water, that was the beginning of the bad service this server provided. Her attitude, not clearing plates, not filling drinks, and taking forever to settle the tab, at a buffet when the crowd was thinning in the late evening. If I was not being forced to tip her, I could live with most of that when I am tired and just wanna eat and goto sleep after a long day of riding EE. But being forced to tip for a bad service experience chaps me in the wrong place like horseback riding in wet undies.

 

[wilde_oscar]

Hah! I was an English major (BA English) and I can't spell to save my life. I constantly ask my rather bright 10 year old how to spell certain words. Without spell-check in college I would have been sunk. In high school, I used my father as my spell-check. He was also an English major, but a great speller like my son. I guess the good spell gene skips a generation!

Can I get an AMEN... spell check is better then Automatic Transmission and the Elevator combined. English is a silly language anyway, after all it was invented in England, home to the Ministry of Silly Walks.

 

[Andy B]

Can I get an AMEN... spell check is better then Automatic Transmission and the Elevator combined. English is a silly language anyway, after all it was invented in England, home to the Ministry of Silly Walks.

If you don't like it don'y use it, after all we are letting you use it royalty free, imaging how much we could charge.

 

[rantnnravin]

But being forced to tip for a bad service experience chaps me in the wrong place like horseback riding in wet undies.

now, that's good writing!


BTW- interesting note: my sister is the editor of a magazine; she says that 90+% of writers have notoriously bad grammar. It's the editor who makes them look like they actually have a command of the English language.


oh- to keep this On Topic: I think diners should be able to dictate the % of tip - up to 18% - as included on the DDP.
we always wind up leaving more for the servers anyway- the bad servers we've had are few and far between both on and off DDP paying for DDp and free.-- go figure.

and as far as Boma goes-- the management there is great! We had an issue with being seated - we had an ADR for first seating and after 30 minutes i returned to the podium to basically say, what gives? the manager went above and beyond to make it right. gave us a great table, sent us a special appy AND a special dessert not on the buffet- had the chef come to our table (3x), explained the offerings at the buffet, asked us how we enjoyed the food, what we liked/disliked
WAAAY above what we would have expected just for being overlooked during the seating process, but left us with a VERY favorable impression of the restaurant.
communication is key. -even if the grammar isn't perfect.

 

[DisneylandForever]

BTW- interesting note: my sister is the editor of a magazine; she says that 90+% of writers have notoriously bad grammar. It's the editor who makes them look like they actually have a command of the English language.

As a former Editorial Assistant for the San Francisco Chronicle, I'd say our percentage was the opposite. Maybe newspapers and magazines hire a different kind of writer?

I'm done discussing grammar anyway. My original (side) point was just to call shenanigans. I seriously doubt I was the only one befuddled by the OP's first two paragraphs in his original post.

DisneylandForever: There's no way I'm throwing my hat into this ring...but I have to say that this is without a doubt one of the funniest comments I've ever read. I literally spit my drink out when I read it!

But you do watch Nip/Tuck!

Yes I do. And I LOVE it!

I don't agree that tipping bad service should be mandatory. I agree that you should be allowed to indicate somehow what % of tip you want to leave and Disney covers up to 18%. That way, no price increase to the consumer and the customer still dictates the tip.

Regardless of which method is used, automatic tip, no tip included or customer-dictated tip, I do not think that it will have an impact on the level of service you receive. The disposition of the server you happen to get will determine that.

I totally agree with this. My main point is that since the service at WDW is far more good than bad, removing the tip from the DP will just cost us money. Out of 30+ sit-down meals in WDW, I've had slow service once. The waiter wasn't rude or incompetent, but the cooks that night had some trouble. I just decided not to eat at 'L Originale again, since the food was only average anyway. Some of us take advantage of the Dining Plan by eating at nice places and ordering stuff we wouldn't otherwise have ordered (ex: filet mignon). Now we're looking at spending an extra 10 to 20 dollars a night just in tips. If the service in WDW was notoriously bad, I'd be the first one championing this decision. It's not though. From my experience, it's notoriously good.

 

[pilferk]

If people keep experiencing bad service, at some point they have to ask themselves what part are they playing in that equasion?! The common denominator is the patron, not the server!

Except, well, it DOES take two to tango...and trying to lay the blame at the foot, entirely, of the patron doesn't wash either. I have a responsibility to be a "good", reasonable, patron who doesn't inconvenience the server or make their job difficult or uncomfortable. They have a responsibility to provide good service. I hold up my end of the bargain, I promise you.

Look, my wife has bad restaurant karma. It's just the way it is. Maybe she was a lousy patron, tipper, or server in a past life. I don't know. But about 1/2 the time we go out to eat, sometime during the meal she gets the wrong order. And no, I'm not exagerating. No, she doesn't mumble. We had even taken to asking server to read back the order to make sure. Still, about 1/2 the time (and we're talking about a WIDE variety of eateries, here).....somewhere along the line....she gets the wrong thing.

Usually, we deal with it in an appropriate manner...we tell the server, and often laugh or joke about my wife's bad karma. MOST of the time, it's handled with the professionalism one would expect from someone in the service industry. They get the full 18% to 20%+ we would normally tip. But sometimes....just sometimes....the server is rude or just not responsive. And I fail to see how we play any part in that.

Sometimes, it IS the servers fault. And you can argue with me til you're blue in the face that they still have the "right" to a full tip. I disagree. If a landscaper did an awful job, I'd not pay them in full. If a hairdresser gave me a bad haircut, I'd not pay them in full. If any other service person performed bad service, I'd negotiate a reduction in the rate I'm paying. With a server, that reduction comes from their tip. Keep in mind, I'm not talking "reasonable" things like it taking awhile to get my drink, or food being slow out of the kitchen or things the server may have limited control over. I'm talking about downright rude, inconsiderate, or unresponsive service. If that offends those of you who have been servers, I'm very sorry. But I, too, think it goes with accepting the job. Just like I don't get my bonus at work if our department doesn't perform.....

 

[pilferk]

IMO it doesnt matter where the $ goes. The point is that if the server didnt satisfy the guest, than they deserve no tip. Ofcourse, some people are impossible to satisfy. But I believe that these are the exception, not the rule. Tips should be earned, not garunteed. I also feel, however, that by opting out of the %18 included tip, the guest should be visited at their table before they leave by Mgmt. Whatever the server didnt do, or did wrong, the Mgmt team should know (just MHO)

I agree. My feeling on this is that, to avoid abuse, removing the tip should be what requires action because it should be the far less frequent occurance. That way a guest has to go out of their way, perhaps by speaking to a manager, to get the tip knocked off. Keeping the tip should just be a matter of signing off on the DDP "bill". That way abuse becomes much more difficult than the alternative.