Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[McCrae]

At David’s $19pp, it’s not much of a discount and can often be more (especially for 1 bedrooms). With a 25% or 30% discount from CRO. David’s is over $100 MORE than CRO per night for a 1 bedroom August 2020.

For now that seems to be the case, but in normal circumstances thats not the position. Availability for DVC units through Disney is normally very limited. I wouldn't consider renting points unless their was enough of a financial incentive to do so.

 

[cmrdgrs]

Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?

Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...

You're correct. Disneyland reservations do not work in the My Disney Experience app.

I would think the Disneyland website might show the are closed?

 

[meryll83]

You're correct. Disneyland reservations do not work in the My Disney Experience app.

I would think the Disneyland website might show the are closed?

It does, I’ll just screenshot that instead and hope that’s enough!

 

[foodiddiedoo]

It does, I’ll just screenshot that instead and hope that’s enough!

That's what I did for Aulani, since it's not part of MDE either. The person I talked to on the phone yesterday about collecting more information for my chargeback said that sounded fine but YMMV.

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

That's actually not true (in my experience). I rented points to a friend/co-worker. Apparently, the cc they had for room charges had expired so they ended up with a large bill that went unpaid. I had no clue (using my points normally) until months later (maybe 8 or so) when she was having issues with her credit report and let it slip. They eventually made good with Disney, and I no longer rent to them, but if I wouldn't have found out on the renter's side, who knows if I would have ever learned of the situation from DVC.

If I am reading you correctly the issue was caused at some point by an expired CC. Disney never contacted you and you saw no effect on your account and rights. You found out the issue existed from information on the renter's side. This took about 8 months for you to learn.

This is pretty much what I would have expected. I don't think the reason why the CC didn't work matters. Here, the expired CC and subsequent charges is 100% on Disney, maybe excluding outright fraud but even then it is a Disney problem imo. You didn't give an opinion on the renter's credit, sign a co pay agreement. Not Disney, not any company nor any person can make someone responsible for what happens in these situations with out express consent. I am far from a CC expert but this seems to violate many federal and state consumer protections. And just like the IL Consumer Fraud Act it acts outside (or despite if you prefer) a contract. FYI sign a contract for murder and see if a court enforces it. then ask why a perfectly executed contract won't be enforced. Law rules contracts.

In addition to my chat with DVC here is what is on line at Disney now. Notice it covers room damages, smoking etc. Again I am not a CC expert but I don't see how taking an extra 100 dollars every time a charge is made can go wrong. the hold and hold time are not the bill and payment. I am fairly sure Disney also (or did) check on the remaining balance on a card but not how. It might be that damage discovered exceeds the CC max after check out. Still can't see this an owner issue.

 

[suemom2kay]

Thanks for the advice, will go and take a screenshot....
EDIT - where do I find the David’s message that the resorts are closed, I can’t see it?

Unfortunately we were booked at VGC at Disneyland who I understand don’t use the same reservation system...

I meant on Disney's website. You have your contract with David's showing a reservation at VGC so showing resort closure on the Disneyland site would show that you can't possibly have a reservation there.

 

[Sandisw]

If I am reading you correctly the issue was caused at some point by an expired CC. Disney never contacted you and you saw no effect on your account and rights. You found out the issue existed from information on the renter's side. This took about 8 months for you to learn.

This is pretty much what I would have expected. I don't think the reason why the CC didn't work matters. Here, the expired CC and subsequent charges is 100% on Disney, maybe excluding outright fraud but even then it is a Disney problem imo. You didn't give an opinion on the renter's credit, sign a co pay agreement. Not Disney, not any company nor any person can make someone responsible for what happens in these situations with out express consent. I am far from a CC expert but this seems to violate many federal and state consumer protections. And just like the IL Consumer Fraud Act it acts outside (or despite if you prefer) a contract. FYI sign a contract for murder and see if a court enforces it. then ask why a perfectly executed contract won't be enforced. Law rules contracts.

In addition to my chat with DVC here is what is on line at Disney now. Notice it covers room damages, smoking etc. Again I am not a CC expert but I don't see how taking an extra 100 dollars every time a charge is made can go wrong. the hold and hold time are not the bill and payment. I am fairly sure Disney also (or did) check on the remaining balance on a card but not how. It might be that damage discovered exceeds the CC max after check out. Still can't see this an owner issue.

The POS does make it clear that you are responsible for your guests,

It appears that they may have stopped the practice, but what Disney has them sign doesn’t take away the responsibilty you agreed to in the POS,

To be clear, they never asked owners to pay but rather held them responsible to make sure they contacted their guest to settle up

I will try today to find the specific language. But, it is good to know that maybe DVC has reversed how they hold owners responsible.

 

[suemom2kay]

My credit card company are now saying up to 45 days before they’ll be in touch with me just to get some more detail regarding my payment dispute, before even actually getting it submitted!

Thinking my travel insurance might be the way forward as, (in theory) they have shorter timescales... even if I would lose a small excess fee on the claim.

However, part of what the insurance claim guidance mentions is required as evidence is a cancellation invoice. I don’t think I can get this from David’s without choosing their option 2, and that leaves me completely empty handed if the insurance claim doesn’t go through...

 

[starry_solo]

@meryll83 : when was your resort reservation? There should be screenshots dated March 11th or 12th that provide that information as well (about the closure of the hotels).

There are certainly newspaper articles that talk about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/business/disneyland-coronavirus.html
I'm sure a Disney blog has it listed somewhere as a screenshot. Heck, it might even be in the Disneyland section of this forum.

 

[meryll83]

@meryll83 : when was your resort reservation? There should be screenshots dated March 11th or 12th that provide that information as well (about the closure of the hotels).

There are certainly newspaper articles that talk about it:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/12/business/disneyland-coronavirus.html
I'm sure a Disney blog has it listed somewhere as a screenshot. Heck, it might even be in the Disneyland section of this forum.

Got a screenshot from the DL website dated 16th April which works, as we were due to check in shortly after that.

Thanks all for the help!

 

[lawboy2001]

The POS does make it clear that you are responsible for your guests,

It appears that they may have stopped the practice, but what Disney has them sign doesn’t take away the responsibilty you agreed to in the POS,

To be clear, they never asked owners to pay but rather held them responsible to make sure they contacted their guest to settle up

I will try today to find the specific language. But, it is good to know that maybe DVC has reversed how they hold owners responsible.

I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest. "Hey DVC Owner! The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired! Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??" Ummm, no. No I can't. That was your job!!

 

[Sandisw]

I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest. "Hey DVC Owner! The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired! Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??" Ummm, no. No I can't. That was your job!!

There are many things in the POS that discusses the responsibility and terms of rentals, including the denial of a renter if they do not have a contract with the owner in which agree to abide by terms of the POS...and they dont have to reimburse renter or owner for this in any way,

It also says owners are reasonable for a guest who refuses to leave on time if the next owner or guest can’t get in. They can fine the DVC owner.

They even reserve the right from time to time to have to approve all rentals, in their sole discretion

Like I said, they used to freeze the accounts, but owners can indeed be held liable in terms of use of their membership. It may be a practice not in use as much for CC because of the new way they process those,

But, legally, they can hold you as an owner responsible for what rules of the POS any of your guests violate, including room damage,

Davids, or any broker, can not assume this for you, If one rents, or even books for guests, I would encourage all owners to know exactly what the POS says in terms of what you agree to when you let others use your membership.

That was really the point I was making. We assume risks when we let strangers use our membership.

 

[MICKIMINI]

He needs to amend the current contract if the three parties are still the same, or enter into a new contract if the parties have changed.

He actually wants to do a new contract, since he gets to charge the new higher rental fee to his Renters. He is, however, sticking it to the Owners by not giving them the new higher fee paid to Owners, unless there are new points involved. And even then, only the new points are paid at the higher rate.

Such an outstanding example of honorable business practices I have not seen since.....Bernie Madoff.

Ouch! And I agree!

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I don't think owners are responsible when Disney accepts an invalid form of payment from a DVC guest. "Hey DVC Owner! The CC imprint we took from your guests wasn't honoured because the CC had expired! Can you track them down and give us the dough pretty please??" Ummm, no. No I can't. That was your job!!

They are your "guest" and yes, Disney retains the right to come back to you via DVC. I've only read about it once or twice and it was resolved between owner and guest. One would think it was their job and so tough luck on them but Disney/DVC made certain in our agreements that we end up as ultimately responsible. Nice when it's really all on them but they got to write the contract and no modifications allowed by us.

However, even so, it's so rare that it's not worth worrying about IMO. And as I mentioned when I've read about it it's been friends or family of the owner. Maybe once was not.

 

[GrumpyInPhilly]

Very well put. These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past. I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction

I agree. I've rented thru David's in the past as well and just did a transfer thru the site sponsor. SO much easier!

 

[dsnymnkyuncle]

This is the language I think people are referring to as possibly requiring an owner to stand good for a renter not paying a bill or damaging the room. Again recall my motto "Law conquers contract". It this is not the language or there is more I would appreciate being pointed at that.

"All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renters or any other person or persons you permit to use your reserved Vacation Home."

So without being snarky try the criminal or murder hypothetical. Is an owner responsible for a renter who goes down on points and murders a spouse? Obviously not. Yet murder is clearly an act of the renter (for stipulation caught in the act, on video and confession IOW not an evidence thing) and imo murder is a violation of the rules and regulations.

So where is the line between the all inclusive POS language and reality? Law rules contracts, even recorded contracts. A criminal act like murder jumps in between the DVC and the owner. Owners have zero responsibility for criminal acts. Could running out on charges or damaging other people's property be considered a crime? A 3rd party that DVC authorizes, Like a CC company that Disney pays for a service does as well. If Disney decides that in the future owners will need to agree to pay for renter charges/damages it will be different.

 

[Marionnette]

Very well put. These are my same thoughts, and I have rented points both privately and through David's in the past. I did a transfer last year instead and that was much better than either rental method... points gone, money in bank, hands washed of transaction

Do you happen to recall what they charged to act as the intermediary for point transfers? I may end up with more points than I can use next year and definitely don’t want to do any rentals. But I’ve also been gun shy about transfers to strangers. An intermediary would take that worry away.

 

[Sandisw]

This is the language I think people are referring to as possibly requiring an owner to stand good for a renter not paying a bill or damaging the room. Again recall my motto "Law conquers contract". It this is not the language or there is more I would appreciate being pointed at that.

"All renters and exchangers must comply with the rules and regulations affecting occupancy of Vacation Homes, and you will be responsible for the acts or omissions of your renters or any other person or persons you permit to use your reserved Vacation Home."

So without being snarky try the criminal or murder hypothetical. Is an owner responsible for a renter who goes down on points and murders a spouse? Obviously not. Yet murder is clearly an act of the renter (for stipulation caught in the act, on video and confession IOW not an evidence thing) and imo murder is a violation of the rules and regulations.

So where is the line between the all inclusive POS language and reality? Law rules contracts, even recorded contracts. A criminal act like murder jumps in between the DVC and the owner. Owners have zero responsibility for criminal acts. Could running out on charges or damaging other people's property be considered a crime? A 3rd party that DVC authorizes, Like a CC company that Disney pays for a service does as well. If Disney decides that in the future owners will need to agree to pay for renter charges/damages it will be different.

The entire conversation was based on someone posting that the broker takes on the responsibility of the owners and that is not true,

There is much more than that in the POS I have for RIV that is even further defined specifically.

DVCM can indeed freeze your ability to use your account if they have a reason to by acts of your guess that violate the terms and conditions of the POS. Your example is silly because murder is not part of the terms and conditions of your product.

As said already, it is rare, and May not be used for CC charges, as someone shared a situation in which 8 months went by and they were not effected,

However, to continue to say you cant be held responsible for things renters or your guests do that violate use of the property is not accurate and anyone renting should be sure they understand it and are comfortable with that risk,

A broker offers no protection to this.

ETA: All POS documents have the information on different pages so in RIV it starts on page 78.

 

[Bowen Family]

This discussion of liability for damages is interesting but a bit off topic, no?

 

[Sandisw]

This discussion of liability for damages is interesting but a bit off topic, no?

To a certain extent, but it is something related to the broker and what he would owe an owner in his contract and a piece of what may happen after this in terms of owners trusting the broker .