Davids DVC: Rental reimbursement or rescheduling?

[Sandisw]

But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.

I would think renter has to prove the owner used the points for another rental to be considered double dipping, or that they got usable points back, not to mention Davids is not paying the 30% to owners, so the renter would only be able after the owner for about 50% since that is all the owner has received of the renters funds,

If I was a renter, and I found out that the owner had tried to get me rescheduled ASAP or returned the money and I could have gotten a refund, I would not be happy with the voucher,

This voucher idea sounds great for renters who believe it’s the only choice.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I guess so. I rented as well (not him, and my stay is not cancelled but I feel it will have to be) and I have a different view. I'm not with David's but kind of wish I was right now because I would know for certain I would be offered that option, and it wouldn't fall back on just *hoping* my owner could/would rebook my stay. People are saying DVC is/will be limited but I've looked at availability and I could stay in August, October, November or Christmas right now, but I would have to be flexible with the resort which I would be fine with.

As a renter I was feeling good about the owner trying to do the right thing but after reading these responses and people wanting to stick it to David's and planning to walk away with their 70% and all their points I'm now wary. If David's doesn't have points to rent or money to refund the renter will automatically take the entire loss, when it is everyone's fault (and no one's fault) this happened. In this case it will force the renter to look for options - chargebacks/insurance/small claims court - all headaches and unnecessary really.

David's can't agree to pay the 30% upfront now for the same reasons he can't on any other day. It isn't the owners fault the reservation was cancelled but it isn't David's either. If he pays everyone 30%, he would run into the same problems of paying 100% to everyone if the resorts weren't cancel (default on dues, cancellations, etc).

You are forgetting about the expiration date of the points. Banked points cannot be banked a second time. If the owner is past their banking deadline, they cannot bank the points for even a first time. So some of the points expired on March 31, some May 31, some July 31 and so on. Is it fair for the owner to be out their points and any money they have already been paid? They should at least be able to keep enough to pay for their annual fees. David has about 47% of the money the renter paid to rent the points. The owner already didn't get the 30% David held back.

If the points owner doesn't get the 30% upon changing the reservation (if they can) that was withheld, why does David get to keep it? He's not refunding any money to the renter. And if the owner waits too long, they will never get the money. The renter will still have a new reservation, maybe not the ideal time they had originally planned on, but they will have a reservation.

 

[Marionnette]

@lovethesun12 , I don’t know where you’re checking availability but unless you’re an owner, you’re only seeing a snapshot in time on public websites. Availability is fluid and changes by the minute, more so this year due to the owners who are canceling and rebooking their Spring trips. In addition, you might as well ignore any availability that occurs mid-November thru December because owners can only book their home resorts for those dates right now.

You also don’t know the situation of the owner’s points. If they have a June, August, September, October or December use year, it won’t matter what’s available, those points may not be useable for the dates that are open or when you can travel.

Owners on here don’t want to “stick it to David’s”. They don’t view the renters as the enemy and most would do whatever they can to salvage the renter’s trips. Doing so would also guarantee that the owners would get the balance that David’s owes them. In actuality, owners are frustrated with a system that David’s has set in place that puts David’s interests above those of both the owners and the renters. Every day that owners sit waiting for DVC to cancel their renter’s reservation is a day of reduced availability later in the year when points could possibly be used to reschedule the renter.

It’s frustrating to know that you could help if you could just contact the renter directly and work out a solution. But renters with a May or June reservation are being told to just wait patiently because David’s staff is dealing with March and April renters. And owners are being told not to contact the renter, that David’s will handle it in good time. Nero fiddles while Rome burns.

 

[yankeesfan123]

I think a good response to David’s initial email from both renters and owners should be, “thank you for the options. I’ll discuss with my lawyer about my legal options under the contract before deciding how to proceed.”

David’s might magically decide to offer new choices at that point.

 

[lovethesun12]

You need to follow the money. Renters paid David’s, not the owner. The company that David used to pay the owner could potentially claim against the owner. Still need to establish if anyone has liability and if the no refunds/no change clause is valid or not. Due to the complexity , costs and uncertainty of who would win this I can’t see many people going down the legal route. Renters could pay a lot of money just to become a creditor of a bankrupt company.

This is true but I would take the advice of a lawyer. Small claims court is not *that* expensive if you are out thousands. Again this would not be the preferred route for me at all it is a huge can of worms I would prefer not to open if simpler solutions were available.

I think this actually adds to the defence case. Resorts do close, you should be aware of that and take appropriate insurance coverage if it’s a concern.

I have 3 types of insurance coverage, one was much better than the one I was offered and allows me to cancel up until the day of my vacation. Yes there are people that know everything and probably predicted a pandemic but a normal commoner like myself would probably think trip cancellation coverage up to the day you leave is better than coverage where you aren't fully covered 30 days out. Actually though, I would be o.k. being out the money, as long as the owner did their best to minimize damages. If they refuse to even attempt to rebook and walk away with their money as well to me they are not doing their best to limit damage. They are basically saying too bad so sad you are on your own.

Whatever you are looking at, unless you are a DVC member, is not real time availability.

And you have it backwards, no one wants to stick it to Davids. Davids is the one who is NOT allowing owners, who have control of the points, to help out renters, like you to try and get their vacation scheduled if they can.

Many owners here who have the ability to help, want to help the renter and every day Davids doesn’t put out the word to try and make that connection, availability disappears as owners who have their own reservation reschedule.

I rescheduled my 4 night May trip to October last Friday With 3 nights at one place and one at another, The next day, there was nothing but one night here and there, and every day since.

The longer Davids stands in the way of trying to get owners and renters to try and work it out..which does limit his loses, chargebacks, etc..,the more he is causing owners, like me, to sour on his business model.

Do you think you are helping the renter out by keeping the 70% and all your points? Leaving David's 0 options to give them at all? Many businesses are offering credits because it is a reasonable solution. Our airlines are not refunding either they are giving credit as well. I'm not sure you could argue you did your best to mitigate damages if you refuse to return what you were paid and also refuse to do anything with the paid for points.

I would think renter has to prove the owner used the points for another rental to be considered double dipping, or that they got usable points back, not to mention Davids is not paying the 30% to owners, so the renter would only be able after the owner for about 50% since that is all the owner has received of the renters funds,

If I was a renter, and I found out that the owner had tried to get me rescheduled ASAP or returned the money and I could have gotten a refund, I would not be happy with the voucher,

This voucher idea sounds great for renters who believe it’s the only choice.

Well that would be for a lawyer. But in that case the owner receives the value of the points the renter paid for. I cannot see how that would not be double dipping but again that would be for a judge and legal experience to decide not me.

You are forgetting about the expiration date of the points. Banked points cannot be banked a second time. If the owner is past their banking deadline, they cannot bank the points for even a first time. So some of the points expired on March 31, some May 31, some July 31 and so on. Is it fair for the owner to be out their points and any money they have already been paid? They should at least be able to keep enough to pay for their annual fees. David has about 47% of the money the renter paid to rent the points. The owner already didn't get the 30% David held back.

If the points owner doesn't get the 30% upon changing the reservation (if they can) that was withheld, why does David get to keep it? He's not refunding any money to the renter. And if the owner waits too long, they will never get the money. The renter will still have a new reservation, maybe not the ideal time they had originally planned on, but they will have a reservation.

That would be a smaller number of people in those categories. I would specifically say my points expire March 31 so I cannot rebook and no in that case I definitely would not return the 70% either. It doesn't make sense for someone with points expiring March 31 or even April/May to take that offer. I would agree there.

@lovethesun12 You also don’t know the situation of the owner’s points. If they have a June, August, September, October or December use year, it won’t matter what’s available, those points may not be useable for the dates that are open or when you can travel.

Owners on here don’t want to “stick it to David’s”. They don’t view the renters as the enemy and most would do whatever they can to salvage the renter’s trips. Doing so would also guarantee that the owners would get the balance that David’s owes them. In actuality, owners are frustrated with a system that David’s has set in place that puts David’s interests above those of both the owners and the renters. Every day that owners sit waiting for DVC to cancel their renter’s reservation is a day of reduced availability later in the year when points could possibly be used to reschedule the renter.

This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.

If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.

 

[CraigInPA]

But would it have to be David's to sue? I would think it would be the renter suing the owner? Now this is a road I wouldn't want to go down but I do know double-dipping is for certain illegal in Canada. I can also see from quick google searches it seems in the USA the same is true - the landlord (owner) has the responsibility to mitigate damages.

The venue is applicable to all parties who wish to originate a lawsuit.

The term "double dipping" is argumentative, and does not actually express what has occurred in most cases. The owner has an agreement with David's to book a reservation with points, which he has done. At the time of the booking, the points were worth $14.50 to the owner and David's agreed to pay that to the owner in two payments, $10.15 per point immediately and $4.35 per point on check-in day. Through no fault of the owner or David's, the reservation was cancelled. David's has withheld the $4.35 payment. At that moment, the points fell into one of 4 categories:

1. Able to be put back into a future year. The owner has no out of pocket loss, and should work with David's to mitigate the loss to the other two parties by either booking a new reservation FOR THAT RENTER or to refund the $10.15 per point payment for the points that were restored to their original borrowed year. I suspect that there are very, very few of cases where an owner borrowed 100% of the points to rent.

2. Banked points and current year points which expire at the end of the use year in 2020. These are now highly distressed points, worth, according to David's own site, only $4-8 per point. Because there are few accommodations remaining between September and December, and David's has stated they would not book summer reservations, these points are likely to be lost, reducing their value to zero. The correct thing to happen would be that David's should attempt to mitigate the loss to the owner by booking a vacation with them. Should David's not be able to do that, he is responsible for the $4.35 per point payment. Because of the distressed nature of the points, the owner should refuse to refund the $10.15 per point payment, as that payment, under the owner's agreement with David's, is not refundable. This gives David's more incentive to work hard to book a trip with these points.

3. Banked points and current year points which expire at the end of their use year in 2021. David's should attempt to mitigate the loss to the owner by re-booking the original renter, or with agreement by by other parties, a new renter. Should David's not be able to utilize the points, he is responsible for the $4.35 per point payment. Liked banked and current year points expiring in 2020, the owner should refuse to refund the $10.15 per point payment, as that payment, under the owner's agreement with David's, is not refundable. This gives David's more incentive to work hard to book a trip with these points.

4. Some combination of 1, 2, and 3. I suspect this is the most common situation. DVC members may have expiring points. By renting them, they gain some value. The way David's works is that he will ask you to borrow a small number of future points to fulfill requests and leave you with no "stranded" points. In previous pages, we've heard from owners who booked with combinations of current and future year points. In this case, each group of points should be considered separately.

In US court, each party is responsible to the other to mitigate damages to THEMSELVES. Absent vexatious conduct, there is no underlying responsibility to mitigate damages to the other party when there is contract non-performance.

 

[Sandisw]

This is true but I would take the advice of a lawyer. Small claims court is not *that* expensive if you are out thousands. Again this would not be the preferred route for me at all it is a huge can of worms I would prefer not to open if simpler solutions were available.
I have 3 types of insurance coverage, one was much better than the one I was offered and allows me to cancel up until the day of my vacation. Yes there are people that know everything and probably predicted a pandemic but a normal commoner like myself would probably think trip cancellation coverage up to the day you leave is better than coverage where you aren't fully covered 30 days out. Actually though, I would be o.k. being out the money, as long as the owner did their best to minimize damages. If they refuse to even attempt to rebook and walk away with their money as well to me they are not doing their best to limit damage. They are basically saying too bad so sad you are on your own.
Do you think you are helping the renter out by keeping the 70% and all your points? Leaving David's 0 options to give them at all? Many businesses are offering credits because it is a reasonable solution. Our airlines are not refunding either they are giving credit as well. I'm not sure you could argue you did your best to mitigate damages if you refuse to return what you were paid and also refuse to do anything with the paid for points.
Well that would be for a lawyer. But in that case the owner receives the value of the points the renter paid for. I cannot see how that would not be double dipping but again that would be for a judge and legal experience to decide not me.
That would be a smaller number of people in those categories. I would specifically say my points expire March 31 so I cannot rebook and no in that case I definitely would not return the 70% either. It doesn't make sense for someone with points expiring March 31 or even April/May to take that offer. I would agree there.
This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.

If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.

Your points apply only to the owners who decide to not offer the refund and not help the renter,

You are missing the point that owners, like me, ARE willing to help the renter get a reservation that works for them by offering up the points used for another time.

I guess I am confused, especially as a renter, why you think the broker is the one who needs to be made whole.

If you knew your owner had offered you a refund, you Would not want it? Or if your owner tells your broker they want to work with you and reschedule, would you want thst?

But, even so, if the contract doesn’t require an owner to return the funds, or offer the points, or it’s not clear that is their liability, then the courts are the way to do,

It is not Davids who gets to decide this outcome. It is the owner, the renter and Davids,

I guarantee you that any renter out there right now who is facing a loss would JUMP at the chance to either get their money back or a new reservation right now vs, taking a voucher that they have no idea what that gives them,

The voucher option only benefits Davids in a situation where the owner is willing to help the renter, which is why he does t want any other deal to be done,

There are lots of ways he could be working to help owners and renter..and his business without making it a one size fits all approach. He has chosen not to allow that because he doesn’t really care about the actual parties he put together, but just himself.

 

[VeroGuy]

As a renter I’m still of the opinion that a case can be made that the renter has very little fault in this other than maybe not buying insurance.

I know that my contract does not tell me if the points I’m renting are expiring in a month or a year. All I know is that I have rented valid points from an owner through David’s and that a reservation has been booked. In perfect times that is all I needed to know but these aren’t perfect times and I think that an argument could be made that the owner and David’s has fault for renting points so late into there UY and having a contract that does not address the closing of the resorts by the property management company (Disney Vacation Club) acting on behalf of the owner of the time share.

Can an owner explain why as a renter I shouldn’t feel like I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in this scenario?

I think that the points UY And how they could become unusable is between the owner and DVC to dispute not involve the renter. Just my take and I know I could be wrong.

 

[cm8]

I am not talking about what has already happened. I am just saying moving forward, contracts will need to be spelled out CLEARLY so that at least the owners should be shielded from any future risks. If that puts an end to the rental market, then so be it. If I am no better off financially by renting than gifting to friends and family, then what's the point?

LAX

My Rental Contract already includes an extenuating circumstance clause....

In addition to what Ziranvan wrote, my contract specifically states the *******Member nor DVC/DVD will be held liable or responsible for any disasters, acts of God,accident or unforeseen event that may affect the reservation.*********

I’ve always included that clause and have never lost a rental because of it.

I will always make sure that my Renters are taken care of. I had a rental from April 11-15 booked and paid for. Even though the contract specifically states that I did not have to, I have in good faith refunded the Renter because it’s the right thing to do. I hope that once the dust settles and we get back to a new norm, they will one day remember that as a kind gesture and rent from me again.

Edited to add

 

[VeroGuy]

Your points apply only to the owners who decide to not offer the refund and not help the renter,

You are missing the point that owners, like me, ARE willing to help the renter get a reservation that works for them by offering up the points used for another time.

I guess I am confused, especially as a renter, why you think the broker is the one who needs to be made whole.

If you knew your owner had offered you a refund, you Would not want it? Or if your owner tells your broker they want to work with you and reschedule, would you want thst?

But, even so, if the contract doesn’t require an owner to return the funds, or offer the points, or it’s not clear that is their liability, then the courts are the way to do,

It is not Davids who gets to decide this outcome. It is the owner, the renter and Davids,

I guarantee you that any renter out there right now who is facing a loss would JUMP at the chance to either get their money back or a new reservation right now vs, taking a voucher that they have no idea what that gives them,

The voucher option only benefits Davids in a situation where the owner is willing to help the renter, which is why he does t want any other deal to be done,

There are lots of ways he could be working to help owners and renter..and his business without making it a one size fits all approach. He has chosen not to allow that because he doesn’t really care about the actual parties he put together, but just himself.

I would take a new reservation if that was offered but I’m very leery on the voucher as it seems very open ended. I would also work with the owner to help mitigate loss on their end.

 

[Sandisw]

As a renter I’m still of the opinion that a case can be made that the renter has very little fault in this other than maybe not buying insurance.

I know that my contract does not tell me if the points I’m renting are expiring in a month or a year. All I know is that I have rented valid points from an owner through David’s and that a reservation has been booked. In perfect times that is all I needed to know but these aren’t perfect times and I think that an argument could be made that the owner and David’s has fault for renting points so late into there UY and having a contract that does not address the closing of the resorts by the property management company (Disney Vacation Club) acting on behalf of the owner of the time share.

Can an owner explain why as a renter I shouldn’t feel like I’ve gotten the short end of the stick in this scenario?

I think that the points UY And how they could become unusable is between the owner and DVC to dispute not involve the renter. Just my take and I know I could be wrong.

Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?

 

[Marionnette]

This is exactly why David's offering is the best option. He has the entire pool of renters and owners. So if he has an owner who has points expiring in July, he can book the earliest reservations with those and the owners get their 30% back and are made whole. Then August, September, etc to best negate the damage. Then he also has a pool of cash he can draw on when it's impossible to rebook for scenarios like points expiring in March.

If you deal with every single individual contract, people who have points expiring in August for example may not have a renter that can return in August. It is much more likely David could have 1 person willing to travel in August if he has a shizload of renters to choose from.

Best for whom? The owner who has distressed points that are worth a fraction of what they were when the agreement was made? Or the renter who receives a yet-to-be-defined voucher that he may or may not be able to use based on the terms and conditions? No, this arrangement only favors David’s.

FWIW, David’s has already stated that they will not make reservations for the remainder of the summer. Forget booking July or August for your own renter or another one (if one could be found!). And owners cannot book non-home resorts before 7 months out, so goodbye to most of November thru the rest of Fall Frenzy as DVC owners book up their home resorts for their own trips with whatever availability they can find. If owners and renters could communicate directly, then they could try to work something out between them. Instead both are waiting for David’s to get around to contacting the renter, then contacting the owner who then gets back to David’s who then relays the owner’s response to the renter, who gets back to David’s, who then forwards that response to the owner, and so on. It’s a vicious circle.

What David’s is asking the owners to do is give the money they have received back to David’s, hope that David’s can match that owner with a renter again and do it before points expire and availability dries up. And you think that is fair to the owners, how?

 

[Sandisw]

I would take a new reservation if that was offered but I’m very leery on the voucher as it seems very open ended. I would also work with the owner to help mitigate loss on their end.

And, that is why some people have soured on Davids. Owners are being told we are not supposed to try to help the renter they booked for out,

Owners are being prevented in helping the renters because Davids want the voucher option only,

 

[DGsAtBLT]

Kind of funny that all this time I was sure that if we rented it had to be through a reputable broker to lessen the risk, and in this scenario it seems like the private renters are for the most part better off.

 

[DGsAtBLT]

Has David’s stated publicly (or in something more than just individual communication) that they are not booking summer?

 

[VeroGuy]

Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?

I would not be happy with the middleman that we both decided to use and would think twice before ever using them again. If I could work out something with the owner I would as long as there was an agreement in place. I think that David’s could be doing a disservice to both parties if an owner has expressed that they are willing to work with the renter.

 

[yankeesfan123]

Renters and owners are both potentially put in a bad situation. But, let me ask you, if you knew I, as an owners was willing to give the money back, but Davids is the one preventing it, and the gives you a voucher, how would you feel?

Money back pleeeaaasssseeee

 

[Sandisw]

I would not be happy with the middleman that we both decided to use and would think twice before ever using them again. If I could work out something with the owner I would as long as there was an agreement in place. I think that David’s could be doing a disservice to both parties if an owner has expressed that they are willing to work with the renter.

I agree and I think renters who have a contract with Davids should be expressing to them that they are heading owners want to help and that he is preventing it,

As I have said, I have an August renter and if things are still an issue then, I will work directly with them, regardless of what is request of me at this point

 

[lovethesun12]

Best for whom? The owner who has distressed points that are worth a fraction of what they were when the agreement was made? Or the renter who receives a yet-to-be-defined voucher that he may or may not be able to use based on the terms and conditions? No, this arrangement only favors David’s.

FWIW, David’s has already stated that they will not make reservations for the remainder of the summer. Forget booking July or August for your own renter or another one (if one could be found!). And owners cannot book non-home resorts before 7 months out, so goodbye to most of November thru the rest of Fall Frenzy as DVC owners book up their home resorts for their own trips with whatever availability they can find. If owners and renters could communicate directly, then they could try to work something out between them. Instead both are waiting for David’s to get around to contacting the renter, then contacting the owner who then gets back to David’s who then relays the owner’s response to the renter, who gets back to David’s, who then forwards that response to the owner, and so on. It’s a vicious circle.

What David’s is asking the owners to do is give the money they have received back to David’s, hope that David’s can match that owner with a renter again and do it before points expire and availability dries up. And you think that is fair to the owners, how?

If an owner has distressed points, I would think it is even more important they take the offer up of rebooking. They still have their 70% and they did not deliver on the contract (again, no one did which is why this is so debatable) . I would also ask questions in that case about what happens to their 30% if they are unable to rebook for certain.

To be specific, I think it benefits:
-owners who do not have distressed points because there are more potential renters (depending on expiry they can still keep their 70% and the option is there to be made whole)
-renters because there are more options for rebooking their stay and have an option for a non-refundable contract where their points are most likely still available in some capacity but could not be delivered at that specific time through no fault of anyone.

 

[TS1998a]

I reached out and rebooked my May renters, then sent David's an email. Finally got a response from them. It follows:

"We appreciate you reaching out to the C family to circumvent the long wait times and accommodate their need to move travel dates.


If you want to continue to work directly with the C family, you are more than welcome to do so on the condition that the C family confirm with us, via email, that they are in agreement to work directly with you, relieving David’s Vacation Club Rentals of any further compensation or assistance as this will become a private rental with directly with you. Once this is confirmed, we will promptly pay you the remaining 30%.

We will proceed to contact the C family now and upon receipt of approval from them, we will complete the agreement. Please respond with your acknowledgment."