Cutting Funeral costs-not follwing wishes of Loved one

[MrsPete]

I'm not sure where you live, but I'm pretty sure this is illegal/against health code violations in most of the country.

I would've thought so too 'til this thread got me reading. But, no -- no matter where you are -- in your own home and on your own land you can still today do pretty much anything you please with a loved one's body. Most people don't think about this because we're conditioned to think of using a funeral home, and because it's really only practical for people who have a large chunk of family land. If you live on a typical one-acre lot and will eventually sell your house, burying someone out back isn't a realistic idea for several obvious reasons.

Also, people tend to have public viewings in churches and funeral homes, and IF you have such a viewing in a public place, the body must be embalmed. In your own home, you can wash the body yourself, lay it on dry ice and keep it for a couple days, and bring in who ever wants to come for a viewing.

Churches and public cemeteries have rules about embalming, caskets and vaults -- but they aren't public laws.

What is the law:
You must have official death certificates, and you must inform certain government agencies of the death.
If you bury on private land, you must have health officials say that it's an acceptable spot -- I saw concerns with the water supply mentioned several times.

I doubt this is valuable information for the majority of us -- and it has nothing to do with the OP's situation -- but it's an example of just how we've come to think of certain services as mandatory, when actually we do have choices. I find it an interesting topic.

 

[MrsPete]

Perhaps it was. Perhaps it wasn't. The fact that the OP just assumed it was and couldn't tell for sure says to me that she has a lack of understanding of her MIL's religion. Therefore, she has no business making any religious decisions (not that she should be a part of this process in the first place).

I think the OP started out poorly informed, thinking that a mass would be expensive. At this point, she should be more knowledgeable.

I disagree that she shouldn't be included in the decision making process. She's been married to this woman's son for years -- she's family. I can guarantee you that if my father-in-law were to die today (which I certainly hope he does not), it would be me and my sister-in-law making the arrangements. Neither of our husbands would be involved, not because they wouldn't care, but because it's just not the type of thing they do. I would treat an in-law's funeral with the same respect with which I would treat my own parent's ceremonies.

On a completely different note, if the OP ends up spending money on the funeral, that does impact her and she should have a say-so. We don't know how much the mother-in-law has set aside for the funeral. For all we know, she might have literally nothing or she might have a moderate amount that just isn't enough for her expectations. With college tuition looming large in our future, I would be very unhappy if my husband went out and spent thousands without some discussion between us.

 

[Nancyg56]

:s

My concern is because none of us are practicing Catholics - except SIL- no one will participate, know WHEN to do readings or want to carry the gifts. BTW - my MIL raised the kids Catholic but she herself didn't become a Catholic until her 50's ( she is 86)....... The chapel is simply easier

I am a practicing Catholic and can speak to this post. My MIL passed away in April and her daughter had her POA. She was a nasty little piece of work so she planned her service at the funeral home with a quick little service by a Priest. My MIL was a devout Catholic. The Nun who was her friend was appalled that sil would completely dishonor her mother's religious belief in order to accommodate her own plan. A service may be easier for you and the non Catholic members of your family but it is not what is appropriate for your DMIL. She has already made it clear that she wants a Big Mass. There is no "BIG" Mass so I believe that you are placing your own misconceptions of what a Funeral Mass is. If you are opposed to having a Funeral Mass you could have Memorial Mass and explain to the Priest that you are no comfortable planning or participating in it. He will take care of that. You can also explain that you will not pay for it and that will probably be absorbed as well.

In our case we were not able to have her Mass prior to her burial so we did have a Memorial Mass with a little social hour after. We did have family who came but MIL's friends from Church were also in attendance. MIL belonged to some of the CHurch organizations so we asked that a representative from each one read and they were delighted to do so.

The things that you are concerned about, (the readings, the carrying of the gifts) are very easy to solve.

I started this thread because the one thing she insists on-as recently as this weekend (when we went to the wake with no attendees, except kids and grandkids, but they did the long 2 day wake thing and church service)...is the Big Mass at her Church.

I have casually discussed how many folks do a service in the Chapel of the funeral home and she does not want that

If someone wants their wishes honored, then they should up the bucks to pay for it. How low and selfish is it to expect people to lay out thousands and thousands of dollars for a lavish funeral??????

If you know what you want, you need to make those plans IN ADVANCE and PAY FOR IT YOURSELF so you don't leave that burden to family members (whether they can or can't afford it)

The MIL has asked for a Mass. If she cannot pay for a Mass the Parish will absorb the cost. If one can honor a wish one should. It is strange that the OP is concerned about honoring a Catholic's wish to have a Mass upon her death and that is the least expensive portion of the cost of a funeral.

Its the transfers from point A to B that the Funeral home add more $$....I was just trying to save time anmd expense by suggesting it in the Chapel.

My Dh and i will be the one paying for what his Mom;s small policy doesnt cover, thus my interest (his sis -the only practicing Catholic, cant afford it. And we know that for the multitude of things DH and I have paid for in the last years (with love for my MIL)-the Ramp for MIL to get in her house, her Dryer etc)

You can manage that cost easily. My DH Aunt and Uncle had their entire service in the Church. It was odd to me but on our area there is a Church that routinely does this. A Mass takes 1 hour so not much time.

I would discuss this with your MIL. Tell her that there are limited finances and that she should articulate what her primary wishes are. If a Mass is what she wants than that is what I would do and cut the rest. That is where the real money will be spent

 

[MissManda]

Actually, i was a Catholic and stopped attending ...my brother was a priest, my Mom worked for the diocese for years, so I fell somewhat knowledgeable. It seemed like a full Mass in the Chapel of the Funeral Home for my Aunt.
Its the transfers from point A to B that the Funeral home add more $$....I was just trying to save time anmd expense by suggesting it in the Chapel.

My Dh and i will be the one paying for what his Mom;s small policy doesnt cover, thus my interest (his sis -the only practicing Catholic, cant afford it. And we know that for the multitude of things DH and I have paid for in the last years (with love for my MIL)-the Ramp for MIL to get in her house, her Dryer etc)

It will certainly save you a lot of time and trouble if you would just call the funeral home or the priest that was at your Aunts service and see if it was a Mass or not. If it was a Mass and your MIL doesn't care where the Mass is held, then have it at the funeral home. If it wasn't a Mass then plan on having your MIL's service at her Church. If you MIL specifically states that she wants the service at her home church (regardless of if a Mass can be preformed at the funeral home or not), I would still honor that request.

 

[hsmamato2]

why would it cost anything to use her church? I would assume the time at the funeral would be expensive.....but again,I'm unfamiliar with this.....

 

[ccgirl]

A mass in a Catholic church would be less than the cost of the dryer, that you kindly have supplied to her. Did you try to talk her out of the dryer and tell her to just hang up her clothes to save the money? If that is her final wish...to have a funeral mass in a Catholic church I really don't see why there is even a debate. Why you are even trying to get her to "save" the money. It is more than money to her and I think you really need to see that. The fact the rest of the family (other than SiL) are not Catholic should be a mute point. I got married in a Catholic church (same free structure). They suggest the donation. It was $200. If you cannot afford it, all the churches I have belonged to, will still perform the mass. If you are looking to save the $200 don't order flowers. There, problem solved.

How much has MiL set aside for her burial?

 

[hsmamato2]

and again,I'd assume you should do what you know MIl wanted......

 

[ccgirl]

why would it cost anything to use her church? I would assume the time at the funeral would be expensive.....but again,I'm unfamiliar with this.....

They usually suggest a donation. It is usually only a couple of hundred dollars. If you have a cantor, organist etc that is usually included in that fee. Part of the fee also goes to the utilities that are required. If you cannot afford to pay, the churches will still do the mass (at least in the churches I have been a member). To me, that $200 is going to be the cheapest part of the burial.

 

[duffy]

I couldn't agree more. If it is something you want then you should pay for it and plan it yourself!

I was raised Roman Catholic and I am quite sure that there aren't any specific requirements to enter the Kingdom of Heaven that say you must have a church mass and lavish funeral upon your death! My sister's service was held at the funeral home and a mass dedicated to her at the church. I'm positive she is flying around in Heaven right now

Ok, then can YOU show evidence that a Catholic Mass in the church-which is what the original poster's mother-in-law is requesting-will cost thousands and thousands?

There are other ways to cut back on the cost of the funeral. The Mass in church is probably the least expensive part.

It's not like she is requesting to have her ashes taken into space, or put on top of Mount Everest. She wants a Mass. In a church. And the original poster doesn't want to do that.

 

[Ciciwoowoo]

Um....she's dead

She's not really going to care what is done here on Earth...she is busy doing afterworld things now



As long as you are doing what the survivors would like, that is fine.

And funerals bring out the worst in families. I have yet to see one where there wasn't some behind the scenes terrible fight between the family that lingers for years after the death.

 

[ccgirl]

Um....she's dead

She's not really going to care what is done here on Earth...she is busy doing afterworld things now



As long as you are doing what the survivors would like, that is fine.

And funerals bring out the worst in families. I have yet to see one where there wasn't some behind the scenes terrible fight between the family that lingers for years after the death.

She's actually still alive and expressing her wishes of how she wants her burial to be handled. I think funerals bring out the worse in some families because each member of the family wants to do what they want to do rather than the wishes of the deceased. If the deceased left explicit instructions those should be followed. Then, there would be no debates about how things should be handled.

 

[MrsPete]

And funerals bring out the worst in families. I have yet to see one where there wasn't some behind the scenes terrible fight between the family that lingers for years after the death.

I can't claim to have been involved in large numbers of funerals, but this must have more to do with the people involved than the funerals themselves.

I have NO experience with funeral-related squabbles. The closest thing I can think of is that at one funeral everyone was very upset at the way the man died; a soldier, he was killed by friendly fire. No one was upset by his parents' burial choices -- just at the horrible waste of such a wonderful young man.

 

[crisi]

She's actually still alive and expressing her wishes of how she wants her burial to be handled. I think funerals bring out the worse in some families because each member of the family wants to do what they want to do rather than the wishes of the deceased. If the deceased left explicit instructions those should be followed. Then, there would be no debates about how things should be handled.

I don't agree. Funerals and memorials are as much for the living as the dead. My brother in law is dying and doesn't want a memorial, he wants an Irish wake in a bar with a lot of whiskey. How are my mother in laws 75 year old friends supposed to pay their respects at an event like that? Do my 12 and 13 year old, his niece and nephew, not get an opportunity to say a final goodbye surrounded by the people who loved their uncle and love them? Does he really expect his 70 year old aunt to come halfway across the country for a night in a bar? Yet, she will come, and we need to give her something to attend. And my kids are going to need something. There are going to be a lot of people left out of his idea of a "funeral"

Or you could be my parents. They own a plot in a Catholic cemetery, but my mother does not want anything to do with the Catholic church. Moreover, the plot is next to her mother in law, they didn't get along. My fathers wish is to be buried between my grandmother and my mother, but he doesn't want a Catholic ceremony either. And my mother doesn't want anything to do with being buried near my grandmother. We can't possibly meet their wishes, because their wishes are in conflict. (my mothers solution is that Dad dies first, then she does what she wants).


Moreover, and this is critical given this is the budget board, having wishes and being able to pay to have your wishes met are two different things. Wanting an expensive funeral and expecting your loved ones to pay for it is not reasonable (paying for your own expensive funeral, if that is what you want, is)

The OPs mother in law wants a funeral mass, but we don't know, the OP doesn't know, what that means to her MIL. Is this something on the scale of my Aunt Rose, who was buried by a bishop with a budget larger than most weddings (the choir vails were over $1000)? Is this a mass said in her name, like my Aunt Florence, who was buried straight out of the funeral home because the transport expenses were too much for the family to handle? The most important question to me is "how important is it to MIL that her body be present at the mass?". Because that is where I think most of the expense will come over having the mass said at church versus arranging mass at the funeral home.

A funeral is a little like a wedding. A priest will marry you in church for free (or a donation), but that isn't where the expense comes in. And not many brides would believe that a simple wedding mass, without the bells and whistles, fits their idea of a wedding. However, just because you want a Vera Wang gown and a bouquet if orchids does not mean its affordable to you or your family, and you are still sacramentally married even if you only had two attendants and they wore dresses they had in their closets.

 

[HayGan]

Ok, then can YOU show evidence that a Catholic Mass in the church-which is what the original poster's mother-in-law is requesting-will cost thousands and thousands?

There are other ways to cut back on the cost of the funeral. The Mass in church is probably the least expensive part.

It's not like she is requesting to have her ashes taken into space, or put on top of Mount Everest. She wants a Mass. In a church. And the original poster doesn't want to do that.

I said nothing specific about the OP - don't put words in others' mouths please! I will say it now though - if the OP's MIL wants a mass in church and specifics around her funeral then should should arrange it herself and pay for it herself. If she can't afford what she wants then she should find the alternatives. Most funeral directors and priests will come to her home to make the arrangements if she can't go out on her own. If she can tell her family what she wants then she can deal in some manner with making the arrangements. And I don't just mean telling her family what she wants.


In my original post, I simply said that I agreed with the previous poster that if someone wants specific plans for their funeral then they should pay for and arrange those things themselves. IMHO, it is selfish for someone who is living to expect others who will likely be grieving to have to deal with funeral arrangements and costs. Whether it costs $10 or $10,000 and whether you want it in church or at the drive-thru of McDonalds's, you should make plans for it and pay for it yourself before that day even comes.

 

[NotUrsula]

I don't agree. Funerals and memorials are as much for the living as the dead. My brother in law is dying and doesn't want a memorial, he wants an Irish wake in a bar with a lot of whiskey. How are my mother in laws 75 year old friends supposed to pay their respects at an event like that? Do my 12 and 13 year old, his niece and nephew, not get an opportunity to say a final goodbye surrounded by the people who loved their uncle and love them? Does he really expect his 70 year old aunt to come halfway across the country for a night in a bar? Yet, she will come, and we need to give her something to attend. And my kids are going to need something. There are going to be a lot of people left out of his idea of a "funeral"

Or you could be my parents. They own a plot in a Catholic cemetery, but my mother does not want anything to do with the Catholic church. Moreover, the plot is next to her mother in law, they didn't get along. My fathers wish is to be buried between my grandmother and my mother, but he doesn't want a Catholic ceremony either. And my mother doesn't want anything to do with being buried near my grandmother. We can't possibly meet their wishes, because their wishes are in conflict. (my mothers solution is that Dad dies first, then she does what she wants).

Moreover, and this is critical given this is the budget board, having wishes and being able to pay to have your wishes met are two different things. Wanting an expensive funeral and expecting your loved ones to pay for it is not reasonable (paying for your own expensive funeral, if that is what you want, is)

The OPs mother in law wants a funeral mass, but we don't know, the OP doesn't know, what that means to her MIL. Is this something on the scale of my Aunt Rose, who was buried by a bishop with a budget larger than most weddings (the choir vails were over $1000)? Is this a mass said in her name, like my Aunt Florence, who was buried straight out of the funeral home because the transport expenses were too much for the family to handle? The most important question to me is "how important is it to MIL that her body be present at the mass?". Because that is where I think most of the expense will come over having the mass said at church versus arranging mass at the funeral home.

A funeral is a little like a wedding. A priest will marry you in church for free (or a donation), but that isn't where the expense comes in. And not many brides would believe that a simple wedding mass, without the bells and whistles, fits their idea of a wedding. However, just because you want a Vera Wang gown and a bouquet if orchids does not mean its affordable to you or your family, and you are still sacramentally married even if you only had two attendants and they wore dresses they had in their closets.

All very true (well, except for the part about the bar; I'll get to that in a minute). However, I think that if you *can* afford to honor the deceased's religious wishes without hardship (both in time and money), it is rather disrespectful to someone as close as a MIL to refuse to do so simply on the grounds that you feel that it is more trouble than it is worth. If the Mass itself (the ritual, that is, not the optional extra trappings) is the only thing that her MIL is asking for, she really isn't asking for very much in the normal scheme of things funerary.

Yes, sure, if you want a full Cathedral Choir and sixteen altar servers and masses of flowers, there is an expense associated with that which should be borne by the estate. However, those things are not actually required for the performance of the ritual of the Mass. (But the permission of the local Bishop *is* required if the Mass is to be held anywhere other than in a church sanctuary. In some dioceses, getting permission for that might cost you a decent-sized donation.) I agree that the only real question of unavoidable expense in this case seems to be the question of the transport of the remains; if she dies in a hospital three miles from the parish church that isn't going to be a significant issue, but it would be if she died 500 miles away.

Now then, about the bar : I'm used to this one. Unless he is requesting a specific bar that is not licensed for food service, it is usually not that difficult to arrange a modern version of a "traditional" Irish pub wake if you just reserve a private room in a combination restaurant/bar. Children will be allowed in as long as they don't consume any alcohol, and the old folks can sit in the corner and have coffee if they don't drink. I've been to wakes such as this both in Ireland and in Irish neighborhoods in the US, and most of the time there is no problem at all with having all generations present. I see no reason at all why you cannot invite the Priest to the wake and have a memorial prayer said before the party begins; Irish priests in particular tend to like a good send-off and know how to combine the solemnity and the joy of the soul's passage. (Which is after all what a traditional Irish wake is all about: celebrating the idea that the person is now with God and free from earthly suffering. Yes, you miss the person and are sad that they will not longer be a part of your life, but the living are supposed to be able to try to get past that and be happy for the good part.)

PS: I also have no experience with funeral-related family blowups, and I have VERY large extended family that is spread across several countries. There have been occasional disagreements re: details, but nothing that caused any lasting enmity. (There have, however, been some incidents that were hugely embarassing at the time, but funny in retrospect, like the time at my Aunt's graveside service when her Fundamentalist MIL was overcome by the Spirit and felt compelled to throw her arms around the Priest who had just completed the prayers: he was a very small man, and he wasn't expecting it, and she knocked him over backward onto the coffin.)

 

[tar heel]

agree with the posters that say there are lots of things you are not required to do. I've posted before about my MIL's arrangements -- the cost of her cremation was just under $1,000 and we didn't use the funeral home for anything else. Her memorial service was beautiful and directed by the minister who had known and loved her for 30 years. Her ashes were scattered in a "garden" created just for that purpose. We did spend money on altar flowers and obituaries, and I assume my FIL probably gave checks to the minister and church. Anyone who asked what they could do or what we needed, we sent to her two close friends who were organizing the after-service reception. That resulted in plenty of cookies and nibbles. We supplemented by buying a few from the food service at the college where her service was held.

My parents' funerals were expensive because that's what they wanted. One thing we didn't have to pay for, though, was the family meal after the service. Maybe it's a Southern thing, but the women of the church prepared a feast after my mom's service and would have done the same for my dad's except that the owner of a famous mountain restaurant had already invited everyone to come there.

One thing I noticed on the funeral home forms is that they have to say "why" a body is being embalmed. In our case it was "for viewing." I believe the cemetery required it any way, and it definitely required a vault.

 

[tar heel]

Hearing about family blow-ups in regard to funerals makes me glad I'm an only child. I can't imagine such behavior at such a time and am very thankful that is the case.

 

[MomToOne]

It possibly was a mass. I've been to mass in hotel conference rooms when there was a Church down the street.

(Most priests shy from performing marriages outside a church building, but I suspect its more of a control the bridezilla thing - although my cousin was married in a Mass by a priest at a country club)

Canon Law:

THE TIME AND PLACE OF THE CELEBRATION OF THE EUCHARIST

Can. 931 The celebration and distribution of the Eucharist can be done at any day and hour except those which the liturgical norms exclude.

Can. 932 §1. The eucharistic celebration is to be carried out in a sacred place unless in a particular case necessity requires otherwise; in such a case the celebration must be done in a decent place.

§2. The eucharistic sacrifice must be carried out on a dedicated or blessed altar; outside a sacred place a suitable table can be used, always with a cloth and a corporal.

Can. 933 For a just cause and with the express permission of the local ordinary, a priest is permitted to celebrate the Eucharist in the place of worship of some Church or ecclesial community which does not have full communion with the Catholic Church so long as there is no scandal.

While Canon Law allows it, many Bishops have instructed the priests in their diocese to cut back on such activities. Hence the need to consult with the actual priest you would like to have perform a Mass outside of church. And be aware that even though it might be allowed today, the dioceses can change their directions to parishes at any time so you may be left high and dry at the actual time of the funeral.

For example, here is a document from the San Diego Diocese with the Guidelines for Catholic Funeral Rites: http://www.diocese-sdiego.org/handbook/Handbook_PDFs/Liturgy8.pdf

In it, it states:

pg 5 - "1. The Funeral Liturgy outside Mass (OCF #177-203) is celebrated when a Mass is not possible or not deemed appropriate. It is ordinarily celebrated in the parish church, but it may also be celebrated in the funeral home, the home of the deceased or cemetery chapel (OCF #179). The pastoral advice of the parish priest is essential in determining what is appropriate."

pg. 6 - "5. Although the Order of Christian Funerals includes the possibility of Holy Communion in this form of the liturgy, this practice is discouraged in the Diocese of San Diego."

And if you Google "Guidelines for Catholic Funeral Rites", you will also find many parishes across the US that have posted documents that basically contain this same text.

 

[crisi]

Now then, about the bar : I'm used to this one. Unless he is requesting a specific bar that is not licensed for food service, it is usually not that difficult to arrange a modern version of a "traditional" Irish pub wake if you just reserve a private room in a combination restaurant/bar. Children will be allowed in as long as they don't consume any alcohol, and the old folks can sit in the corner and have coffee if they don't drink. I've been to wakes such as this both in Ireland and in Irish neighborhoods in the US, and most of the time there is no problem at all with having all generations present. I see no reason at all why you cannot invite the Priest to the wake and have a memorial prayer said before the party begins; Irish priests in particular tend to like a good send-off and know how to combine the solemnity and the joy of the soul's passage. (Which is after all what a traditional Irish wake is all about: celebrating the idea that the person is now with God and free from earthly suffering. Yes, you miss the person and are sad that they will not longer be a part of your life, but the living are supposed to be able to try to get past that and be happy for the good part.)

If that was what he wanted, it would be doable. But that isn't what he wants. What he wants is the sort of event at which my parents would be distinctly uncomfortable. No religious component whatsoever (he isn't remotely religious), no pre party memorial send off,...just the "I'd like my friends to get together and get drunk with a lot of loud music."

I think I'm going to end up hosting a day after the "wake" open house to give people who really don't care to be in a bar getting drunk a chance to comfort his mother and my husband.

 

[crisi]

While Canon Law allows it, many Bishops have instructed the priests in their diocese to cut back on such activities. Hence the need to consult with the actual priest you would like to have perform a Mass outside of church. And be aware that even though it might be allowed today, the dioceses can change their directions to parishes at any time so you may be left high and dry at the actual time of the funeral.

For example, here is a document from the San Diego Diocese with the Guidelines for Catholic Funeral Rites: http://www.diocese-sdiego.org/handbook/Handbook_PDFs/Liturgy8.pdf

In it, it states:

pg 5 - "1. The Funeral Liturgy outside Mass (OCF #177-203) is celebrated when a Mass is not possible or not deemed appropriate. It is ordinarily celebrated in the parish church, but it may also be celebrated in the funeral home, the home of the deceased or cemetery chapel (OCF #179). The pastoral advice of the parish priest is essential in determining what is appropriate."

pg. 6 - "5. Although the Order of Christian Funerals includes the possibility of Holy Communion in this form of the liturgy, this practice is discouraged in the Diocese of San Diego."

Yep. From post one, she needs, actually mother in law needs, to define what she wants and talk to the priest about if it's possible. But if the body is is important to her, and transport is outside the budget, and the priest won't do a mass in the funeral home, I don't think it's the OPs problem to make sure her mother in law gets what she wants