Cruise and Theme Park Operational Updates due to Coronavirus

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Incidentally - one of the longest lines was for SDMT - the vlogger in question (who I love) who was not sugarcoating the lines - also noted it had a posted wait time of 65 min. That’s not crazy for that ride - and touring plans (for whatever it’s worth) says it posts 50 mins average and actual is 38.
My point is - looking at pictures of long lines without context is misleading.

Someone smarter than me needs to do some Disney math and ballpark what that standby time would be adjusted for a FP line cutting it off and every seat occupied so we can really compare to old numbers.:surfweb:
 
Geez.

I think a lot of people's complaints are ridiculous, like those freaking out over people watching cavalcades, but people are still allowed to complain...right? Or do we laugh at that now?

I think being concerned about going when you have to wait in (reportedly) long lines for stores is quite normal.

to be clear I’m not saying it’s not normal - I’m saying how long are the waits. Do we know that or are we just concerned bc lines.

& I’m not HAHAHA -ing anyone’s reactions I’m more or less finding the irony in this thin line (pun intended) that needs to be walked by the parks & general public.

it’s ok to have a reaction either way. Just bc I express my opinion about someone’s GENERAL reaction doesn’t mean it is no longer valid. everyone has room on the misery bench. no one said you aren’t allowed to say something or feel a certain way but that works both ways.
 
I agree. If it’s still like this in March we will probably cancel. Crowds don’t bother me because of covid. Crowds bother me when there’s lines like that video. And a line just to shop or to go into pavilions at Epcot. That’s insane.
Do any pavilions aside from MX develop a line?
 

Someone smarter than me needs to do some Disney math and ballpark what that standby time would be adjusted for a FP line cutting it off and every seat occupied so we can really compare to old numbers.:surfweb:

that ain’t me but I’d like to see it happen as well -good idea
 
You're probably right. I'm just feeling discouraged right now.
Yeah, sorry. It can appear to be discouraging but remember that going in with real expectations helps. If you go in thinking parks will be empty and lines won't exist, what you experience will not meet your expectations and you will be miserable. If you go in just wanting a taste of Disney magic and to have fun on some rides but you expect crowds and long lines, you will just go with the flow and make the best of it and will probably have a much better time. As long as it can be done safely and people stay healthy, it's all good.
 
We got really used to dead quiet being normal for post Covid Disney, but remember how we talked a lot before it actually opened how “limited” capacity may not actually feel so limited given how high max capacity is (and that it isn’t often hit if ever) and when you account for cleaning, distancing, lessened capacity, and even lessened hours?

If the 25% is a lie, then that’s not cool of them, but until more definitive proof comes out I believe it.
There are a number of variables that might not be immediately apparent that we also have to consider here.

First, as you mentioned, I think 25% of maximum capacity (which I'm almost certain is the metric Chapek is using) is a much higher number than most might assume. Contrary to popular belief, MK almost never actually hits maximum capacity. It may have happened once or twice many years ago on rare occasions, but these days, Disney establishes barriers to entry (Resort Guests only, PH or AP tix only, only reservation-holders within an hour, etc...) at any point when attendance is getting remotely close to maximum capacity. As a result, they're able to slow new Guest entry to balance out with Guest exits. And these days (with all the expansions and the like), there are only a handful of days (usually one day around Easter, Fourth of July, and two or three days around Christmas and NYE) that MK actually even implements that protocol. The park never actually hits that true 100% capacity, so, yes, some of us (myself included) may have seen MK at 98% capacity but I'm fairly confident none of us (except potentially very long-time WDW visitors) have seen MK at a true 100% capacity.

With that in mind, we need to reconsider what 25% actually is within this context. If MK's maximum capacity is around 90k Guests, 25% of that would be 22.5k Guests. An "average" MK is just north of 55k Guests with very few days each year dipping below 50k. To put that number in context, a "busier" day (like Memorial Day for example) might be between 65k and 68k Guests with true holiday crowds getting closer to (but not hitting) 90k (so they'd be in the 70s and 80s I'd imagine). So what we're seeing now is roughly 1/3 of "busier" crowds (like Memorial Day) or just under 1/2 of an "average" or "slower" day. You take away parades, fireworks, character greetings, shows, and many QS locations, and I absolutely buy that that's where we're at right now. In other words, MK at 50% capacity isn't super social distancing-friendly, especially without these other experiences.

In terms of the queues themselves, I cannot emphasize this point enough: these long physical lines are not just due to social distancing or reduced ride capacity. Certainly, those changes play a part but you have to remember that through March anywhere from 25% to 60% of an attraction's capacity was being taken up by the (faster-moving) FP/FP+ queue. So you essentially had the attraction's total "queue" split amongst two physical lines. While there are still some Guests (really just DAS and VIP tours at this point) using the general queue bypass, almost all of each attraction's capacity is coming from one single queue. That in and of itself has the potential to double the length of the physical queue and then those other factors exacerbate it even more. It's interesting though because, while the physical queues are longer, the actual waits (as we've discussed, posted waits at this point are just serious ballpark estimates) are still shorter or, in extreme cases, on par with what you'd get on an average or slightly below average MK day. With the reductions in capacity and lack of other experiences, that doesn't surprise me at all at 25% capacity. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much filling more space would help. I think the primary reason most of us "feel" these waits now is because there isn't a FP/FP+ alternative (plus we're seeing almost obnoxiously long physical lines that only exacerbate that feeling).

Now, above all, Disney has gotten much better at allocating reservations as well as some (though not a lot) are getting more comfortable traveling to Florida specifically. Most of the increase in crowds can be attributed to the former. So while visitation has certainly increased, capacity actually hasn't. It's possible that Disney may have set capacity at 25% (and placed markers and implemented protocols to accommodate that capacity) but not filled it all the way there (by not releasing every cancelation, not accounting for no-shows, or even holding spots back for "later," etc...). It may even be as simple as Disney setting capacity at 25% but initially capping it a bit lower and steadily increasing it to that 25% "capacity" incrementally over time like they did in Shanghai. That said, I'd bet the drastic changes in visitation we're seeing are more a result of better algorithms to allocate reservations. They now know Guest patterns in this new environment, so they have adapted their systems to them.
 
/
I don't know about percentages, but I do know that the crowds are tracking right along with the higher room rates as always. WDW room rates are based on expected crowds and that seems to match up...rates start going down in about 2 weeks until Thanksgiving week, so maybe the crowds will thin at the same time....just a guess.
 
The cart situation seems out of hand. Snack lines of half an hour for more than 2-3 weekends is simply bad business...

Not like Disney has never made obnoxious (for guests) decisions banking on us coming back again and again before.

I really and truly believe a good chunk of the people who have been there since July especially multiple times are some of the most unshakable guests, and I don’t mean that in an insulting way at all. They have taken full advantage of our loyalty as regular park goers for years.
 
There are a number of variables that might not be immediately apparent that we also have to consider here.

First, as you mentioned, I think 25% of maximum capacity (which I'm almost certain is the metric Chapek is using) is a much higher number than most might assume. Contrary to popular belief, MK almost never actually hits maximum capacity. It may have happened once or twice many years ago on rare occasions, but these days, Disney establishes barriers to entry (Resort Guests only, PH or AP tix only, only reservation-holders within an hour, etc...) at any point when attendance is getting remotely close to maximum capacity. As a result, they're able to slow new Guest entry to balance out with Guest exits. And these days (with all the expansions and the like), there are only a handful of days (usually one day around Easter, Fourth of July, and two or three days around Christmas and NYE) that MK actually even implements that protocol. The park never actually hits that true 100% capacity, so, yes, some of us (myself included) may have seen MK at 98% capacity but I'm fairly confident none of us (except potentially very long-time WDW visitors) have seen MK at a true 100% capacity.

With that in mind, we need to reconsider what 25% actually is within this context. If MK's maximum capacity is around 90k Guests, 25% of that would be 22.5k Guests. An "average" MK is just north of 55k Guests with very few days each year dipping below 50k. To put that number in context, a "busier" day (like Memorial Day for example) might be between 65k and 68k Guests with true holiday crowds getting closer to (but not hitting) 90k (so they'd be in the 70s and 80s I'd imagine). So what we're seeing now is roughly 1/3 of "busier" crowds (like Memorial Day) or just under 1/2 of an "average" or "slower" day. You take away parades, fireworks, character greetings, shows, and many QS locations, and I absolutely buy that that's where we're at right now. In other words, MK at 50% capacity isn't super social distancing-friendly, especially without these other experiences.

In terms of the queues themselves, I cannot emphasize this point enough: these long physical lines are not just due to social distancing or reduced ride capacity. Certainly, those changes play a part but you have to remember that through March anywhere from 25% to 60% of an attraction's capacity was being taken up by the (faster-moving) FP/FP+ queue. So you essentially had the attraction's total "queue" split amongst two physical lines. While there are still some Guests (really just DAS and VIP tours at this point) using the general queue bypass, almost all of each attraction's capacity is coming from one single queue. That in and of itself has the potential to double the length of the physical queue and then those other factors exacerbate it even more. It's interesting though because, while the physical queues are longer, the actual waits (as we've discussed, posted waits at this point are just serious ballpark estimates) are still shorter or, in extreme cases, on par with what you'd get on an average or slightly below average MK day. With the reductions in capacity and lack of other experiences, that doesn't surprise me at all at 25% capacity. And, to be honest, I'm not sure how much filling more space would help. I think the primary reason most of us "feel" these waits now is because there isn't a FP/FP+ alternative (plus we're seeing almost obnoxiously long physical lines that only exacerbate that feeling).

Now, above all, Disney has gotten much better at allocating reservations as well as some (though not a lot) are getting more comfortable traveling to Florida specifically. Most of the increase in crowds can be attributed to the former. So while visitation has certainly increased, capacity actually hasn't. It's possible that Disney may have set capacity at 25% (and placed markers and implemented protocols to accommodate that capacity) but not filled it all the way there (by not releasing every cancelation, not accounting for no-shows, or even holding spots back for "later," etc...). It may even be as simple as Disney setting capacity at 25% but initially capping it a bit lower and steadily increasing it to that 25% "capacity" incrementally over time like they did in Shanghai. That said, I'd bet the drastic changes in visitation we're seeing are more a result of better algorithms to allocate reservations. They now know Guest patterns in this new environment, so they have adapted their systems to them.

I love reading your long info filled posts (said in the least creepy way possible). Thanks for giving your perspective!
 
Wasn't it just a few months ago we were all supposed to be applauding the vloggers for telling it like it is? :rotfl:
Vloggers and Bloggers tell the truth- when I agree with what they’re posting that is. Otherwise it’s LIES!

*with apologies to @yulilin3 who is obviously an exception to the rule & basically a saint for putting up with us and still letting us know when she’s gonna Vlog 😉
 
I think most people are going to keep on going, but that doesn’t mean Magic Kingdom today has to be the kind of experience I or some others on here need to be willing to spend our money on.

I'm thinking we are talking about years before we have all parks, resorts, etc. with the number and variety of experiences and entertainment and dining we used to have less than a year ago - not counting the new rides, restaurants, resorts, etc. that haven't even opened yet (because we would have gotten those anyway). I think back to the early 2000s where many thought Disney was resting on it's laurels while Universal was catching up with HP land - seemed like many years went by until the Fantasyland revamp. The recovery will not be swift.

However, there are some keystone items that will have a major affect on whether park attendees are receiving the quality of experience they hope to achieve - hopping, fireworks and parties/events quickly come to mind.
 
While Disney may have accounted for the decreased capacity on rides, I don't think they accounted for the bigger decreased capacity in eating, since while rides can be spaced throughout the day, folks, who now that it's cooling off, are probably staying the fully shortened day, are all gonna want to eat meals in a 2-3 hour period...so, you probably can't serve them CS unless you have seats for them, so that capacity gets slowed and decreased, and it all goes downhill.

I think they need a serious rethink on carts and to-go meals (the old "picnic" anyone) that they can serve quick and easy...and then they need an "island" for those to enjoy those picnics in peace:)...
 
Vloggers and Bloggers tell the truth- when I agree with what they’re posting that is. Otherwise it’s LIES!

*with apologies to @yulilin3 who is obviously an exception to the rule & basically a saint for putting up with us and still letting us know when she’s gonna Vlog 😉

Who said he is lying? There’s video footage. Its crowded. We’re disagreeing with the assertion that this isn’t 25%, just like plenty disagreed with DFB’s assertion that the clump of people outside 7DMT was a problem, or with literally everything Carlye Wisel had to say that wasn’t about food.
 
I feel like the complaints are slowly changing from the lines just looking long to actually waiting in long lines for everything, not just rides. Food, stores, buses, ME.

Also, people always talking about optics...it doesn't matter if we on this board know waits won't be as bad as some people say, the general public will see the pictures and videos of lines hear the supposed wait times and somehow this will look bad on Disney. ;)

Maybe things will relax again after this week.
 
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In the sidebar today under the news items, it says that the Coronado opening is being delayed. But, when you click on the link to read the news story it just takes you to the general update page which still shows Coronado opening this week. Is it really not opening?
 
1. I waited in line to get into Trader Joe’s yesterday, so I am not surprised about waiting to shop.

2. I totally believe the 25% number. Character lines are always long if you think about it. Those people have to go somewhere else now.

We haven't had to wait in lines for stores in months now. Not sure why actually, maybe because mask required everywhere they stopped capacity limits? I dont even see people watching the door.

Again, I'm not concerned about my spring trip...so far.

I am curious to see how Thanksgiving and Christmas go as far as crowds. People may be more patient with the cooler weather.

I dont know why, but the store lines in the parks are more disturbing to me...
 
As far as optics go- I don’t care what is and isn’t bad for Disney - I’m not towing that line.

I’m saying - I can show you long lines and say nothing and it looks bad. But is it really bad? I hear mixed things.

things I hear consistently-

it is hot.
lines are long.
Not enough places to eat.
Need more shows

But what i don’t hear consistently:

I waited in line for a very long time
Posted wait time is less than/same as actual

Until I start seeing constant correlation between long line and long wait - I’m saying that this is an optics issue

For me. For MY vacation in 40 days, the pics of long lines don’t matter until they mean something.
 
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