Covid And The Rest of Us

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Actually taking delivery and holding half on hand for the second dose can’t work due to vaccine viability. Pfitzer’s isn’t very stable. Once it arrives the clock is ticking and they need to use them all within 5 days which doesn’t meet the second dose timeframe. It’s going to have to be delayed delivery.

PP's is correct from what I'm reading. It's the freezers that will allow for longer shelf life. But this doesn't mean every place will do it the same.

For the state next to me (that also includes my metro) it was said this: "Williams (MO's health director) expects shipments of the Pfizer vaccine every three weeks, mainly into Kansas City and St. Louis. The Moderna vaccine will arrive every four weeks. And since it can be stored at a less frigid temperature, it's going to mid-sized cities. "Hannibal, St. Joe, Joplin, Sedalia will get that because it's stored at 4 degrees below zero," Williams said."

St Joe (St. Joseph) actually isn't that far away from KCI airport (it's within 40mins) and the KCI airport is within KC metro so I'm guessing they are considering the freezer storage capabilities in St. Joe itself for that part because assuming they have a facility here in the metro, assuming at least some arrives by plane distance wouldn't be an issue there.

All of this still doesn't clear up the answer if they will use up each shipment each time they get it or will reserve half in the freezers but it probably will just vary from place to place. I guess we'll find out soon enough!

 

[gotomu212]

The five day clock only starts when removed from the -70C freezer. It can stay in the freezer for much longer than that (long enough to meet the second dose time frame). So, you cannot deliver to the doctor's office etc., but the country, state, county can take possession.

It can only stay in the deep freeze for 15 days from manufacturing and then can be thawed for 5 days. That’s still too short for the dosing timeline (and some of that 15 days is transit time). That’s from theCDC playbook.

Edit with the link
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-ma...D-19-Vaccination-Program-Interim_Playbook.pdf. (Pg 56)

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It can only stay in the deep freeze for 15 days from manufacturing and then can be thawed for 5 days. That’s still too short for the dosing timeline (and some of that 15 days is transit time). That’s from theCDC playbook.

I think you may be confusing what is being said unless you can help me find what you're speaking to. From a few months ago the CDC did recommend against local places buying specific ultra-low storage freezers at this time because manufacturers were already working on stuff.

Here's Pfizer's information on it:




https://www.pfizer.com/news/hot-topics/covid_19_vaccine_u_s_distribution_fact_sheet

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

It can only stay in the deep freeze for 15 days from manufacturing and then can be thawed for 5 days. That’s still too short for the dosing timeline (and some of that 15 days is transit time). That’s from theCDC playbook.

Edit with the link
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-ma...D-19-Vaccination-Program-Interim_Playbook.pdf. (Pg 56)

Pfizer is saying the same thing as the CDC. That once the vial is moved from the original packaging to be stored at a lesser temperature it will need to be used within 5 days. CDC is not the manufacturer. Pfizer the manufacturer is saying their vaccine, assuming nothing has changed since the fact sheet, can be stored up to 30 days in the original container so long as dry ice is re-added every 5 days.

 

[elphaba91]

I need to vent for a second and maybe this isn't the place for it, but since it's a covid thread..... Here goes..

We own a few restaurants. My husband started this business 15 years or so ago. He's busted his behind working upwards of 80 hrs a week most of the time. As a family we've made sacrifices and adjustments working towards his goal of being able to have everything stable enough that he could me home most of the time and have a general manager that oversaw everything. We were sooo close. Like in December we took the final step in a series of moves that I won't bore you with, but it was a significant layout of cash. Which would have been fine, because in a year, with normal sales, we would have recouped that, and normal cash flow would have allowed us to still pay bills. Then Covid. Only one of our restaurants has been able to reopen due to local restrictions. Sales are down there about 30%. We've literally put everything we have towards trying to survive this, and it's just not going to happen. Banks still want their money. Utilities and taxes and rent still have to be paid. the $ from the PPP act and stuff only went so far with 300 employees. We simply can't recover from this. And then I see friends on FB who really haven't suffered at all financially from this talking about the ppl who want businesses to stay open are selfish and awful people. Thats all well and good and I completely understand where they are coming from. But on the other side of that, there are millions of people watching their dreams and entire livelihoods go down the drain right now. And those people aren't selfish awful people for wanting to find a way to survive this. They aren't horrible for wanting to find a way to safely remain open. First world problem, I know. But I think sometimes its easy for people to only focus on the big companies like walmart or whatever, and how they can totally financially make it through this, without ever taking into account how this affects small business owners.

Don't feel at all guilty for how you're feeling. While I have supported lockdowns, that is with the proviso that governments should also be ensuring businesses, especially small businesses, and individuals receive enough support to survive, as well as legislative measures to share the financial burdens around more (e.g. rent relief, eviction moratoriums, loan deferrals). From what I know of your government's measures, they just don't cut it sadly.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Don't feel at all guilty for how you're feeling. While I have supported lockdowns, that is with the proviso that governments should also be ensuring businesses, especially small businesses, and individuals receive enough support to survive, as well as legislative measures to share the financial burdens around more (e.g. rent relief, eviction moratoriums, loan deferrals). From what I know of your government's measures, they just don't cut it sadly.

FWIW there are some things going on. For instance my Federal student loans have been placed on a 0% interest rate and no payments due since March until January. I've been paying each month but it's a good protection. Some people wanted student loan debt to be erased...but with what money because it's paid by someone.

Eviction moratoriums have been there as well but the rent relief is a hard one because you have landlords on the other side who also need cash for their needs and there's already a good percentage who aren't, they have insurance to pay for their property (and insurance companies can't pay out in claims if they have no money coming in), property taxes pay for a lot of things in one's own community (over 55% of my home's property taxes goes to my school district for example), utility companies need their money too. There have been foreclosure moratoriums as well. {ETA: I should also add multiple insurance companies did give a small refund/reduction in premiums for auto policies for a few months in the spring mostly during stay at home orders as the amount of driving people were doing was a lot less during that time.}

I don't think that it's that our government's measures won't cut it it's that they never could. There's a lot of ripple effect going on.

Throwing money at the situation can't be seen as the solution; it will never be so that every place can survive off that alone. It would amount to a complete bailout of virtually everything in our society to be quite honest when you consider everything and the interconnectedness. That's why many people try to explain being open with precautions taken. And why being called selfish and awful can really cut to the bone when you're faced with seeing your life's work go away because some people are under the impression that a certain amount of money will just make it all go away, help yes but not go away.

 

[ronandannette]

Don't feel at all guilty for how you're feeling. While I have supported lockdowns, that is with the proviso that governments should also be ensuring businesses, especially small businesses, and individuals receive enough support to survive, as well as legislative measures to share the financial burdens around more (e.g. rent relief, eviction moratoriums, loan deferrals). From what I know of your government's measures, they just don't cut it sadly.

@dez1978 - I'm so sorry to hear and I get it. Just yesterday our provincial government announced sweeping new restrictions that have closed all restaurants to in-house dining. Again. After shut-downs this spring caused the permanent closure of approximately 10% of all restaurants in Alberta with a verifiable job loss of 92,000 people. Not all of them came back when things re-opened in July and now of the ones that did, it's been reported that 45,000 people in the food service/bar industry will be unemployed on Monday morning when this shut-down comes into effect. It's a huge chunk out of a multi-billion dollar industry. There simply isn't enough government money at all levels combined to prevent untold personal tragedy.

 

[dez1978]

@dez1978 - I'm so sorry to hear and I get it. Just yesterday our provincial government announced sweeping new restrictions that have closed all restaurants to in-house dining. Again. After shut-downs this spring caused the permanent closure of approximately 10% of all restaurants in Alberta with a verifiable job loss of 92,000 people. Not all of them came back when things re-opened in July and now of the ones that did, it's been reported that 45,000 people in the food service/bar industry will be unemployed on Monday morning when this shut-down comes into effect. It's a huge chunk out of a multi-billion dollar industry. There simply isn't enough government money at all levels combined to prevent untold personal tragedy.

I was reading an article this morning from the Nation restaurant association this morning that said without MAJOR help from the gov't an additional 10,000 restaurants will likely permanently close in the next 3 months. The domino effect from that for suppliers and so on is scary too.

 

[gotomu212]

Pfizer is saying the same thing as the CDC. That once the vial is moved from the original packaging to be stored at a lesser temperature it will need to be used within 5 days. CDC is not the manufacturer. Pfizer the manufacturer is saying their vaccine, assuming nothing has changed since the fact sheet, can be stored up to 30 days in the original container so long as dry ice is re-added every 5 days.

Well CDC and Pfizer aren’t saying the same thing. The playbook specifically says on day 15 transfer to refrigerated temperatures. The FDA will dictate the approved process not Pfizer’s press release. The FDA may change CDCs initial guidance when they approve, but as of now the official government guidance to states preparing their plans is that they thaw at 15 days, and use within 5.

 

[Buzz Rules]

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/live-...e_4380645_2_heads_hero_live_hero_hed#74660814

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Well CDC and Pfizer aren’t saying the same thing. The playbook specifically says on day 15 transfer to refrigerated temperatures. The FDA will dictate the approved process not Pfizer’s press release. The FDA may change CDCs initial guidance when they approve, but as of now the official government guidance to states preparing their plans is that they thaw at 15 days, and use within 5.

Maybe we can hash it out on another thread rather than take up this one

 

[mommasita]

If this is right, we will start vaccinations this weekend! https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/vaccina...gin-this-weekend-health-authorities-1.5226502

 

[elphaba91]

Some bad news today from one of the other vaccine candidates: the University of Queensland/CSL vaccine has failed its phase 1 trial. It's a bit beyond my year 11 chemistry and year 12 biology knowledge to totally understand, but basically it was using a new technology that utilised a fragment of another virus as a 'molecular clamp' to help block the coronavirus spike protein and trigger an immune response. The virus that the scientists found most effective was a fragment of HIV. They thought that they had removed all parts that would trigger any HIV antibodies, but it seems that that is not the case. Every single participant has tested positive to low levels of HIV antibodies; they don't actually HAVE HIV and it is of no harm whatsoever to their health, but obviously it is not a good thing if the population of an entire country can no longer be properly screened for HIV. If there were no other viable vaccines, they would potentially still consider whether the benefits outweighed the harm or try explore ways to modify their vaccine, but as other vaccines are further along anyway, it just isn't worth it. Hopefully the technology (which was apparently very effective and well tolerated) can be modified and adapted to other uses. In the meantime, our government has increased their orders for both the Oxford/Astra Zeneca and Novavax vaccines to compensate.

 

[mom2rtk]

I need to vent for a second and maybe this isn't the place for it, but since it's a covid thread..... Here goes..

We own a few restaurants. My husband started this business 15 years or so ago. He's busted his behind working upwards of 80 hrs a week most of the time. As a family we've made sacrifices and adjustments working towards his goal of being able to have everything stable enough that he could me home most of the time and have a general manager that oversaw everything. We were sooo close. Like in December we took the final step in a series of moves that I won't bore you with, but it was a significant layout of cash. Which would have been fine, because in a year, with normal sales, we would have recouped that, and normal cash flow would have allowed us to still pay bills. Then Covid. Only one of our restaurants has been able to reopen due to local restrictions. Sales are down there about 30%. We've literally put everything we have towards trying to survive this, and it's just not going to happen. Banks still want their money. Utilities and taxes and rent still have to be paid. the $ from the PPP act and stuff only went so far with 300 employees. We simply can't recover from this. And then I see friends on FB who really haven't suffered at all financially from this talking about the ppl who want businesses to stay open are selfish and awful people. Thats all well and good and I completely understand where they are coming from. But on the other side of that, there are millions of people watching their dreams and entire livelihoods go down the drain right now. And those people aren't selfish awful people for wanting to find a way to survive this. They aren't horrible for wanting to find a way to safely remain open. First world problem, I know. But I think sometimes its easy for people to only focus on the big companies like walmart or whatever, and how they can totally financially make it through this, without ever taking into account how this affects small business owners.

I'm so sorry. So much wrong with what has happened to you.

I'm not a big government person, but when business is forced closed by the government through no fault of their own, I believe they must be compensated.

We have been watching what basically amounts to large scale confiscation without compensation. Even eminent domain cases require compensation.

 

[ronandannette]

If this is right, we will start vaccinations this weekend! https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/vaccina...gin-this-weekend-health-authorities-1.5226502

Ours here in Alberta will start next week too but the distribution is taking a bit of a different turn than was originally discussed. Due to logistics (and have any of us heard where exactly the 14 inoculation facilities are?) it is not the elderly in care homes that will be vaccinated. Our first 4,000 doses will be given to medical staff at 4 large hospitals - 2 in Edmonton and 2 in Calgary. It doesn’t make a lot of sense; I understand they have a serious level of exposure but yet the stats show transmission amongst in-hospital health care workers/first responders of all kinds is very low and there have been 0 deaths recorded. Meanwhile, we lost 9 more seniors yesterday.

 

[mommasita]

Ours here in Alberta will start next week too but the distribution is taking a bit of a different turn than was originally discussed. Due to logistics (and have any of us heard where exactly the 14 inoculation facilities are?) it is not the elderly in care homes that will be vaccinated. Our first 4,000 doses will be given to medical staff at 4 large hospitals - 2 in Edmonton and 2 in Calgary. It doesn’t make a lot of sense; I understand they have a serious level of exposure but yet the stats show transmission amongst in-hospital health care workers/first responders of all kinds is very low and there have been 0 deaths recorded. Meanwhile, we lost 9 more seniors yesterday.

I have heard so many different things it Is hard to keep it straight, I remember hearing it in a press conference, but this is what I found online. preparations at the first 14 vaccination sites this week,” Trudeau said. These sites are largely in major cities across the country—one in each province, and two in each of the four largest provinces—with plans to add additional sites in the months ahead.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coron...accine-doses-before-end-of-december-1.5220229

 

[Jrb1979]

Ours here in Alberta will start next week too but the distribution is taking a bit of a different turn than was originally discussed. Due to logistics (and have any of us heard where exactly the 14 inoculation facilities are?) it is not the elderly in care homes that will be vaccinated. Our first 4,000 doses will be given to medical staff at 4 large hospitals - 2 in Edmonton and 2 in Calgary. It doesn’t make a lot of sense; I understand they have a serious level of exposure but yet the stats show transmission amongst in-hospital health care workers/first responders of all kinds is very low and there have been 0 deaths recorded. Meanwhile, we lost 9 more seniors yesterday.

The reason for not giving it to Long Term Care homes first is that they don't have a way to store the vaccine and there is no way to transport many of the seniors to the places that have the vaccine.

 

[mommasita]

The reason for not giving it to Long Term Care homes first is that they don't have a way to store the vaccine and there is no way to transport many of the seniors to the places that have the vaccine.

Understood, but Quebec chose Maimonides (long term care), as a distribution center, as it was hit hard in the second wave, and is located in a red zone, so it is possible,https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...s-anxiously-await-arrival-of-covid-19-vaccine

 

[ronandannette]

I have heard so many different things it Is hard to keep it straight, I remember hearing it in a press conference, but this is what I found online. preparations at the first 14 vaccination sites this week,” Trudeau said. These sites are largely in major cities across the country—one in each province, and two in each of the four largest provinces—with plans to add additional sites in the months ahead.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coron...accine-doses-before-end-of-december-1.5220229

Where does that leave the Territories? Granted, their cases are few compared to the south, but to exclude them just feels alarming somehow.

The reason for not giving it to Long Term Care homes first is that they don't have a way to store the vaccine and there is no way to transport many of the seniors to the places that have the vaccine.

Yes. It has been discussed. My opinion is still the same - we've got to try harder on this. Medical personnel and front-line workers aren't the ones dying in droves - seniors in care facilities are.

 

[mommasita]

Where does that leave the Territories? Granted, their cases are few compared to the south, but to exclude them just feels alarming somehow.

Yes. It has been discussed. My opinion is still the same - we've got to try harder on this. Medical personnel and front-line workers aren't the ones dying in droves - seniors in care facilities are.

It seems the Territories are looking at Moderna
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/covid19-vaccine-rollout-plans-canada-1.5836262