Covid And The Rest of Us

[ronandannette]

What some of are saying is that lockdowns hurt the poorest of the poor and add to the number of those counted as poorest. Yes the tourism industry is one way it is seen right away, but it's just a visual of a deeper reality. The most vulnerable were just told by most of the world they are non essential to the planet (nursing home residents and essential workers of the working class in the US who could not work from home included). We who can still function at home and in lockdown are declaring ourselves essential to the future. It's an old game that has not been played at this world wide level before and it's absolutely heartbreaking for those of us who see and understand this early what this means both currently and it the future. I know this is a DIS board, I am thankful to find a little place to vent, chat, hear from others that understand and seek to understand. It's so hard to wrap my mind around so many thinges in 2020. It started (for me) with so much hatred many Americans seem to have for their own country, the disregard for learning and history and facts, the amplification of difference for virtue points to spew condemnation and cancel anyone they deem irrelevant and then to the way the lockdowns have unfolded.

I think it can only be beneficial to keep presenting calm, credible factual pieces like the Irish guy (sorry - I did not glean his credentials from the video). I suspect many places world-wide are now basing their actions on such information which is unfortunately “lost in the fog” of how things have evolved here in North America.

ETA: I do wonder though how we begun to “un-ring the bell” of economic collapse that has occurred in various sectors world-wide. A big question is related to foreign aid. While I as an individual have been mostly unscathed and can and can make (relatively) small and insignificant contributions to financial relief both here and abroad, our government is literally floundering in deficit financing and debt. In a mere 7 months we have entrenched economic and social issues that may take a generation to resolve and during that time what will be left over to send?

 

[Jrb1979]

I think it can only be beneficial to keep presenting calm, credible factual pieces like the Irish guy (sorry - I did not glean his credentials from the video). I suspect many places world-wide are now basing their actions on such information which is unfortunately “lost in the fog” of how things have evolved here in North America.

ETA: I do wonder though how we begun to “un-ring the bell” of economic collapse that has occurred in various sectors world-wide. A big question is related to foreign aid. While I as an individual have been mostly unscathed and can and can make (relatively) small and insignificant contributions to financial relief both here and abroad, our government is literally floundering in deficit financing and debt. In a mere 7 months we have entrenched economic and social issues that may take a generation to resolve and during that time what will be left over to send?

I don't think many countries are doing lockdowns now. There maybe travel restrictions but I don't call that a lockdown. Yes the have put in stricter restrictions in places where cases are high but that's what they should be doing.

Yes we should be helping the poorer countries financially if possible but I still don't think we should just drop travel restrictions for it. Seeing how hospitalizations haven risen 250% the last 3 weeks now is not the time to loosen restrictions.

 

[ronandannette]

I don't think many countries are doing lockdowns now. There maybe travel restrictions but I don't call that a lockdown. Yes the have put in stricter restrictions in places where cases are high but that's what they should be doing.

Yes we should be helping the poorer countries financially if possible but I still don't think we should just drop travel restrictions for it. Seeing how hospitalizations haven risen 250% the last 3 weeks now is not the time to loosen restrictions.

Did you watch the video? It’s not commentary on what measures should or shouldn’t be in place. It’s scientific data on case numbers and death rates in various countries (including historical data from non-Covid) years, and the apparent efficacy of various measures. It is not spun in any particular direction and objectively, the numbers paint a picture. To quote the video guy “sorry, science is tough like that”.

 

[Jrb1979]

Did you watch the video? It’s not commentary on what measures should or shouldn’t be in place. It’s scientific data on case numbers and death rates in various countries (including historical data from non-Covid) years, and the apparent efficacy of various measures. It is not spun in any particular direction and objectively, the numbers paint a picture. To quote the video guy “sorry, science is tough like that”.

I did watch it. I was just countering the argument with lockdowns aren't much anymore and that travel restrictions aren't a lockdown. The commentary is basically find better systems to control Covid spread and not use lockdowns or travel restrictions. Its what I have been saying for awhile now. We can't just drop the mandatory quarantine without putting in a new system to stop people from bringing it into Canada.

Yet when I say it people like @bavaria and others get upset

 

[bavaria]

Let me begin by saying apologies to @MommyinHonduras, as just after you said that you enjoyed the ability to have discussion in this space, the thread took a very nasty turn. And I forgot to post a thank you for those wonderful pictures, and am so glad that you had some 'normalcy' for once. Perhaps that will help people to understand what your life is like right now. I also think that it's important for you and @Karin1984 to share that life has some normal things right now and that people are participating.

@trvlgirlmq , I am sorry that you are living in FEAR, but I think that it is very important that people have a place to discuss things without the thread being derailed as happened on every other thread into US politics, or US numbers. There are many Americans posting here but they have honoured @ronandannette request to keep the focus on non-US issues. I know that your situation is very, very different, even just looking at the age distribution of deaths. But like the thread on the Cruise board, it's important to know what is going on globally. As @TLSnell1981 points out, many countries have indeed opened up, including to Americans. This week Maldives and Colombia have opened, and Egypt reports 600,000 visits since July, which is critical to their survival considering the political upheaval of the last many years, mother nature, and now COVID have put people into even more poverty.

And to remind everyone, Canada is one of the few countries (along with NZ and Australia which are even more harsh) which bans almost everyone from entering, AND has a 14 day mandatory quarantine (except for those exempt, and it doesn't appear that they have spread anything) It goes beyond a 'travel restriction'. Air Canada and WestJet have both implemented testing in an effort to try and convince the government to make some change after all these months (And yet again, I understand closing to the US, but why not open to 'safe' countries with a scale like much of Europe has been using? No country lives in isolation anymore, and businesses are having to cancel contracts and move on to other locations where they can do work. Distribution continues to be severely impacted, and I don't mean the latest gadget you bought from Amazon which was delayed by a few days, but global distribution of product including food)

I said earlier that I would not normally engage with some people in person, as it simply isn't worth my effort when there is such a display of selfishness, lack of critical thinking, and no desire to research facts. I do enjoy vigorous debate, and I've really enjoyed the fact that many of you have very, very different political and ideological beliefs than I do. Yet we can have discourse, and learn from each other, and are willing to change our viewpoint.

The attitude of 'I don't know what people are complaining about, almost everything is open, I'm fine' is to me the height of selfishness. Even when 'open', a business most likely is not surviving. I know a bank manager of one of the 'big banks' in Canada who has only worked 2 days/week since May, since so many branches are closed as people were pushed to online banking. I know of two credit union branches closing this week in a major city in Canada. I know someone who shut down his tourism business entirely for 2020, and now has to decide if he can operate in 2021 as he has no bookings because the feeder markets cannot enter Canada and are not going to commit money/deposits on a hope that they can in 2021. They have moved on to other places, yet he still has to pay huge fees monthly on fixed costs, with no income. None of these people are ok, and surely someone who still has a job, and hasn't been impacted by COVID or other health issues, can see that and understand that they may be the next one to lose a job 'unrelated' to COVID restrictions.

I have a lot more to say, including sharing some interesting information, but I'll end this post for now as it has become far too long.

 

[Jrb1979]

Let me begin by saying apologies to @MommyinHonduras, as just after you said that you enjoyed the ability to have discussion in this space, the thread took a very nasty turn. And I forgot to post a thank you for those wonderful pictures, and am so glad that you had some 'normalcy' for once. Perhaps that will help people to understand what your life is like right now. I also think that it's important for you and @Karin1984 to share that life has some normal things right now and that people are participating.

@trvlgirlmq , I am sorry that you are living in FEAR, but I think that it is very important that people have a place to discuss things without the thread being derailed as happened on every other thread into US politics, or US numbers. There are many Americans posting here but they have honoured @ronandannette request to keep the focus on non-US issues. I know that your situation is very, very different, even just looking at the age distribution of deaths. But like the thread on the Cruise board, it's important to know what is going on globally. As @TLSnell1981 points out, many countries have indeed opened up, including to Americans. This week Maldives and Colombia have opened, and Egypt reports 600,000 visits since July, which is critical to their survival considering the political upheaval of the last many years, mother nature, and now COVID have put people into even more poverty.

And to remind everyone, Canada is one of the few countries (along with NZ and Australia which are even more harsh) which bans almost everyone from entering, AND has a 14 day mandatory quarantine (except for those exempt, and it doesn't appear that they have spread anything) It goes beyond a 'travel restriction'. Air Canada and WestJet have both implemented testing in an effort to try and convince the government to make some change after all these months (And yet again, I understand closing to the US, but why not open to 'safe' countries with a scale like much of Europe has been using? No country lives in isolation anymore, and businesses are having to cancel contracts and move on to other locations where they can do work. Distribution continues to be severely impacted, and I don't mean the latest gadget you bought from Amazon which was delayed by a few days, but global distribution of product including food)

I said earlier that I would not normally engage with some people in person, as it simply isn't worth my effort when there is such a display of selfishness, lack of critical thinking, and no desire to research facts. I do enjoy vigorous debate, and I've really enjoyed the fact that many of you have very, very different political and ideological beliefs than I do. Yet we can have discourse, and learn from each other, and are willing to change our viewpoint.

The attitude of 'I don't know what people are complaining about, almost everything is open, I'm fine' is to me the height of selfishness. Even when 'open', a business most likely is not surviving. I know a bank manager of one of the 'big banks' in Canada who has only worked 2 days/week since May, since so many branches are closed as people were pushed to online banking. I know of two credit union branches closing this week in a major city in Canada. I know someone who shut down his tourism business entirely for 2020, and now has to decide if he can operate in 2021 as he has no bookings because the feeder markets cannot enter Canada and are not going to commit money/deposits on a hope that they can in 2021. They have moved on to other places, yet he still has to pay huge fees monthly on fixed costs, with no income. None of these people are ok, and surely someone who still has a job, and hasn't been impacted by COVID or other health issues, can see that and understand that they may be the next one to lose a job 'unrelated' to COVID restrictions.

I have a lot more to say, including sharing some interesting information, but I'll end this post for now as it has become far too long.

Yes tourism and the poorer countries are really hurting right now and many people are hurting financially. I disagree that we should just drop restrictions and figure out how to protect the older population so we can go back to the way things were. I don't have the answers but dropping restrictions isn't the answer.


Yes Canada should lessen restrictions at the border but I still say they need some sort of system in place to keep control of Covid coming in to Canada.

 

[bavaria]

Isnt Covid already in? Preventing it from initially entering a country is fine, but once it’s already there, what’s the point of restricting travel? You already have it. Last I checked Covid has long since left the gate.

And when so many are exempt for an entry ban, and don't need to quarantine, and have travelled a lot including from the US, does it really matter any more to restrict some but not others? I mentioned above thread the US flight crews arriving in Germany, no test required, no quarantine required, and they often arrive at the hotel with no mask, or wander around without social distancing or masks. Flight crews are exempt in much/most of the world, and they travel all over and usually have a 2-3 day layover when in a foreign city so lots of time to get out into the population. Yet there are very, very few reports of cases transmitted on airplanes, and I haven't seen anything re arriving air crew (Yes there were some US crew members who sadly died, but more likely they caught it whilst living their lives in the US situation)

The federal budget leaked in Australia this week apparently says no foreign tourism until 'late 2021'. It's been interesting reading the responses to this as there is clearly now a divided opinion.

 

[bavaria]

Let's all do what Sweden did for their older population so the rest of us can go back to normal. They pretty much locked up their seniors and you have to have special permission to visit them. Is that what you want? Cause it sure sounds like it. I frankly have no problem with how Canada and Ontario has handled this.

I'm curious to know when you were last in Sweden, as you misrepresent how they handled the COVID situation. For reference, I was in Sweden already twice this year.

Also as a reference point from earlier in the year:

Nursing homes have been Covid19 hotspots. In many countries upwards of 40, 50, and 60 percent of the deceased taken were in the elderly care system. In Canada it is upwards of 80 percent. This paper is focused on Sweden, where it is upwards of 70%, and more specifically our focus is the City of Stockholm (henceforth “Stockholm city” (stad) as opposed to Stockholm county (län)).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369443/

 

[Jrb1979]

I'm curious to know when you were last in Sweden, as you misrepresent how they handled the COVID situation. For reference, I was in Sweden already twice this year.

Also as a reference point from earlier in the year:



https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7369443/

I was talking the rules they have since put in place which they have done here as well. In Sweden you now need special permission to visit Long Term Care homes. Here you need to have been tested recently to be able to visit. IMO that doesn't mean we should just drop restrictions.

 

[bavaria]

I was talking the rules they have since put in place which they have done here as well. In Sweden you now need special permission to visit Long Term Care homes. Here you need to have been tested recently to be able to visit. IMO that doesn't mean we should just drop restrictions.

Again, you misrepresent what occurred in Sweden. Did you even read the link, or at least the key points? As @ronandannette and others have said upthread, it's really not worth the effort to have a discussion if someone doesn't bother to include facts, or read the link. It's good to have an opinion, but that should be based on facts, not some misheard or misread information.

If you don't know the actual situation in Sweden, and use it to counter an argument, it just weakens your argument. And clearly from what you said, you don't know which is why I posted that link as just one example of how the situation in Sweden differs from other countries.

There have been great opportunities to learn from each other in this thread, if one chooses to do the reading.

 

[TLSnell1981]

The airline sent an unwelcome notification. Our reservations have been cancelled due to cuts. We have a credit to rebook. Flights are still available but not at the rate I purchased our tickets last January. Not happy.

 

[Jrb1979]

Again, you misrepresent what occurred in Sweden. Did you even read the link, or at least the key points? As @ronandannette and others have said upthread, it's really not worth the effort to have a discussion if someone doesn't bother to include facts, or read the link. It's good to have an opinion, but that should be based on facts, not some misheard or misread information.

If you don't know the actual situation in Sweden, and use it to counter an argument, it just weakens your argument. And clearly from what you said, you don't know which is why I posted that link as just one example of how the situation in Sweden differs from other countries.

There have been great opportunities to learn from each other in this thread, if one chooses to do the reading.

The facts are that the vast majority of deaths are people over 70. Cause of that you and many others are of the belief we should do what we can to protect them, which I agree with. I don't agree in that we should drop or ease restrictions to get the global economy back to normal. The reason I disagree is cause of what's happening in Ontario right now. Hospitalizations have increased 250% in 3 weeks. IMO til things get better under control here we should stay the course.

 

[TLSnell1981]

The facts are that the vast majority of deaths are people over 70. Cause of that you and many others are of the belief we should do what we can to protect them, which I agree with. I don't agree in that we should drop or ease restrictions to get the global economy back to normal. The reason I disagree is cause of what's happening in Ontario right now. Hospitalizations have increased 250% in 3 weeks. IMO til things get better under control here we should stay the course.

We must protect the most vulnerable while moving to reopen our economy. It involves relaxing travel restrictions. Otherwise we can't survive. We saw supplies temporarily dry up last spring. What will happen next is much worse and long reaching. Actually it's already happening. Too many businesses and jobs will be gone. There's not enough money to throw at it to make a meaningful difference.

 

[Lake183]

I don't post here because I am US based, but very close to Canada and we actually own a summer home in Quebec. I read this thread daily and I enjoy having the opportunity to gain an understanding of what lockdowns and travel restrictions mean to people who are living under different circumstances around the world.

Some of the most insightful posts I have seen during this pandemic have come from posters who are now saying, "I'm done," because they are tired of trying help people have an UNDERSTANDING of the horrific effects elsewhere in the world. I really hope @bavaria and @MommyinHonduras stick around and continue to post their experiences and thoughts.

There are plenty of "close everything" and "stay home until there is a vaccine" posts across the DIS and I don't read them because I get frustrated with the lack of awareness and empathy towards fellow humans in less fortunate circumstances. This thread was different and I hope it heads back in that direction.

Back to not posting...

 

[Karin1984]

I also think that it's important for you and @Karin1984 to share that life has some normal things right now and that people are participating.

That, and I got tired of the discussion in this thread ;-) 6 out of 7 dwarfs is not happy.
For everything there are multiple ways to look at it, and we will only be able to tell 5 - 10 years from now what the best approach was, and even then we will disagree. History is written by the victors.

With so much disagreement, all we can do is live our lives as we think best. And at the moment I will do that from Disneyland Paris. Halloween in Disneyland is my normal, and I can have my normal, even under abnormal circumstances (will go hibernating in my home for 10 days after this, but it is so worth it)



In the meantime in the Netherlands, it's very likely we will have another lockdown when our figures don't change within the next few days. Let's hope it's a similar lockdown as we had before. No sports, no restaurants except take out, all homeschooling. Only adjustment I can see they might make is letting the young kids (til 12) go to school in person, and the highschool and colleges to go online. There aren't much problems with the young kids, so cross our fingers and hope or the best!

One themepark in NL went ahead with Halloween Nights. The first one was yesterday, Saturday. However it was impossible to control the crowds. The employees did everything they could, but when it started to rain (heavily) the crowds flocked together and there was nothing they could do to stop it. So the other nights are now cancelled.

Oh, Disneyland Paris has made an adjustment in their onride pictures. Initially they didn't show the pictures when someone removed their mask. Now they do show the picture but digitally add a mask over your face!

 

[penn19]

That, and I got tired of the discussion in this thread ;-) 6 out of 7 dwarfs is not happy.
For everything there are multiple ways to look at it, and we will only be able to tell 5 - 10 years from now what the best approach was, and even then we will disagree. History is written by the victors.

With so much disagreement, all we can do is live our lives as we think best. And at the moment I will do that from Disneyland Paris. Halloween in Disneyland is my normal, and I can have my normal, even under abnormal circumstances (will go into hibernating in my home for 10 days after this, but it is so worth it)

View attachment 531622

In the meantime in the Netherlands, it's very likely we will have another lockdown when our figures don't change within the next few days. Let's hope it's a similar lockdown as we had before. No sports, no restaurants except take out, all homeschooling. Only adjustment I can see they might make is letting the young kids (til 12) go to school in person, and the highschool and colleges to go online. There aren't much problems with the young kids, so cross our fingers and hope or the best!

One themepark in NL went ahead with Halloween Nights. The first one was last yesterday, Saturday. However it was impossible to control the crowds. The employees did everything they could, but when it started to rain (heavily) the crowds flocked together and there was nothing they could do to stop it. So the other nights are now cancelled.

Oh, Disneyland Paris has made an adjustment in their onride pictures. Initially they didn't show the pictures when someone removed their mask. Now they do show the picture but digitally add a mask over your face!

I love looking at your pictures. And I like (much as I’m trying) that you are trying to live your life as close to normal as possible. It makes me feel I’m not crazy when I’m trying to do the same thing.

 

[MommyinHonduras]

Thank you to all who shared kind words of support and encouragement.

Just got word the US embassy will be opening for visa appointments which should also mean passport renewals too ,which means my trip to the US in January 21 that has been postponed since April 20 is one step closer to being a go!

 

[TLSnell1981]

That, and I got tired of the discussion in this thread ;-) 6 out of 7 dwarfs is not happy.
For everything there are multiple ways to look at it, and we will only be able to tell 5 - 10 years from now what the best approach was, and even then we will disagree. History is written by the victors.

With so much disagreement, all we can do is live our lives as we think best. And at the moment I will do that from Disneyland Paris. Halloween in Disneyland is my normal, and I can have my normal, even under abnormal circumstances (will go hibernating in my home for 10 days after this, but it is so worth it)

View attachment 531622

In the meantime in the Netherlands, it's very likely we will have another lockdown when our figures don't change within the next few days. Let's hope it's a similar lockdown as we had before. No sports, no restaurants except take out, all homeschooling. Only adjustment I can see they might make is letting the young kids (til 12) go to school in person, and the highschool and colleges to go online. There aren't much problems with the young kids, so cross our fingers and hope or the best!

One themepark in NL went ahead with Halloween Nights. The first one was yesterday, Saturday. However it was impossible to control the crowds. The employees did everything they could, but when it started to rain (heavily) the crowds flocked together and there was nothing they could do to stop it. So the other nights are now cancelled.

Oh, Disneyland Paris has made an adjustment in their onride pictures. Initially they didn't show the pictures when someone removed their mask. Now they do show the picture but digitally add a mask over your face!

Hopefully you will be at the Oogie Boogie Bash in 2021

 

[mousefan73]

The federal budget leaked in Australia this week apparently says no foreign tourism until 'late 2021'. It's been interesting reading the responses to this as there is clearly now a divided opinion.

Yeah and those travel bands are working really well aren’t they?
Didn’t Melbourne just get out of a complete lockdown? Travel bans in March - but stillSummer peaks ( see graphs below) Travel bans are not the solution !!!!!! It’s starting to really upset me as I work for an airline dependent on world travel. Let’s look at the data and in the facts, not emotion or mild forms of xenophobia and nationalism.( I am not using these words lightly, google this topic and you will find great articles from respective organizations on this topic in relation to Covid travel bans )
It comes down to human nature. On the simplest level most people now feel comfortable inviting their family into their homes. There’s a false sense of security that everything familiar and close to me is safe. Factually untrue. One of the main Drivers of Covid right now are family gatherings. I see it every day in my town. You are considered a bad citizen if God for bid you take a family vacation out of the country but it’s socially acceptable to celebrate for ex. a holy communion with your “family“ of 30 guests in your home ( both true stories). It’s safe because “we’re family” " it's just us" ( yes us is a group of people, indoors, with no masks, no distance).

In Germany, a country that I have felt up until now has based decisions on logic and data is also starting to go insane. Just this week different areas of the country were putting “ hotel bans” rules for domestic travelers. So now a “hotspot family from Berlin cannot stay at a hotel in many regions in Germany unless they prove a negative Covid test. It’s easy for local policymakers to make a snap judgment and keep the Virusfrom the outside out While turning a blind eye to what’s going on within their communities ( virus already there). Doesn’t even make logistical sense since the father from this family can commute daily to other cities. But God for bid he stays the night with his family?? Thank God one politician actually spoke up this week and said this has to be the most ridiculous thing that we have come up with and that Decision makers are crossing fine lines lately. ( and no this wasnt a political party thing... the guy was making a logical statement and does support past covid measures).

I have noticed the sentiment is starting to shift here. Germany have been VERY disiplined and acceptable of the measures. But the latest restrictions are starting to lose a lot of those citizens who were on board and supporting their corona measures- especially the latest domestic travel restrictions or closing bars early. Closing bars early is also the latest joke.. Does the virus now what time it is? If you really want to stop the spread then completly close them. Also up until now mask wearing was not required outside in public spaces.. Per the experts doesnt make sense anyways if you are able to distance and in 99% we do.. so now in city hotspots, town centers are looking into mask wearing.. Here people are like ok, I have to wear a mask outdoors when walking by myself, yet people can have parties of up to 25 or 50 people, indoors with no masks ( repeat, when again nightly we are told its the gatherings spreading the virus).. Its this inconstitancy and contradictory that is driving people nuts right now. And don’t get me wrong, the majority Of people are ok with masks. It’s not an anti mask issue - it’s more shaking heads at la policy that’s simply not gonna change things

People are starting to look at the data and logic and are asking questions. Good questions.

 

[ronandannette]

The airline has sent an unwelcome notification. Our reservations have been cancelled due to cuts. We have a credit to rebook. Flights are still available for booking but not at the rate I purchased our tickets last January. Not happy.

Where were you headed?

The facts are that the vast majority of deaths are people over 70. Cause of that you and many others are of the belief we should do what we can to protect them, which I agree with. I don't agree in that we should drop or ease restrictions to get the global economy back to normal. The reason I disagree is cause of what's happening in Ontario right now. Hospitalizations have increased 250% in 3 weeks. IMO til things get better under control here we should stay the course.

That is an unusual way of reporting it rather than using actual numbers. Based on the most recent data (updated daily) released by the CBC there are about 260 people in hospital amongst your 14-some odd million people. Scroll down until you see a graph with 4 colourful lines entitled “Hospitalizations Rates for Covid in the Four Largest Provinces”. It is a per-million people number.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calg...tics-numbers-cases-hospitalizations-1.5514947