Covid And The Rest of Us

[ronandannette]

Just had an itinerary change on a September 2021 cruise.
The trip is Southampton to Quebec and back (24 nights).
The original journey had two US ports of call, Boston and Bar Harbour, but these are now gone. Instead we are adding an extra night in Quebec (now two) and a call at Gaspe.

I can see the rationale of avoiding US ports because of their fully warranted antipathy towards foreigners in this current climate, especially from the UK, but I am surprised that the cruise line (Princess) expects Canada to be any more accommodating.

ford family

Yes - that is interesting. As of now, no cruise ships are permitted to port in Canada and Canadians are under an official Travel Advisory to avoid all cruise ship travel. I sure hope the world has set itself to right by the fall and we can welcome you here. I suspect there may be more itinerary changes announced and perhaps even full-on cancellation. I haven't had the heart to book anything, no matter how far out.

 

[White Cat]

Just had an itinerary change on a September 2021 cruise.
The trip is Southampton to Quebec and back (24 nights).
The original journey had two US ports of call, Boston and Bar Harbour, but these are now gone. Instead we are adding an extra night in Quebec (now two) and a call at Gaspe.

I can see the rationale of avoiding US ports because of their fully warranted antipathy towards foreigners in this current climate, especially from the UK, but I am surprised that the cruise line (Princess) expects Canada to be any more accommodating.

ford family

Expect Canada to be far more restricted. It’s like Marshall Law when returning. It’s amazing and concerning how fast they got control of the subjects.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

As far as travel I saw a news story yesterday that Seychelles has advised those who have been fully vaccinated with at least 2 weeks having gone by from their 2nd dose are welcome to come without a mandatory quarantine (which is normally 10 days). You still have to have a negative PCR test within 72 hours of you traveling to the country just like non-vaccinated travelers. The story I read though said you'd still have things like social distancing, etc in place; hard to avoid that when the country itself hasn't been able to vaccinate its citizens although vaccine has recently been sent there as I understand it India donated it along with sending it to Mauritius and a few other surrounding countries.

Cyprus as I also read advised in December that in March those who are fully vaccinated don't have to quarantine or negative test results.

Tourism based countries, especially small ones, make this situation easier IMO.

I have always wanted to go to Seychelles...(I'm months away from even having an option to get the vaccine so this is just dreaming plus it would be a very long journey but oh the look really inviting right now)

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

because of their fully warranted antipathy towards foreigners in this current climate, especially from the UK

I wouldn't look at it this way...unless you would apply an even stronger feeling towards Australia and New Zealand who have been far more restrictive in travel when it comes to their borders to others in the world. I was more speaking about your choice of "antipathy".

*And I'm not picking on AU or NZ they have their restrictions because they feel they are most appropriate.

 

[ronandannette]

Expect Canada to be far more restricted. It’s like Marshall Law when returning. It’s amazing and concerning how fast they got control of the subjects.

I'm not sure if I've asked this before but why do you continue to come to Canada? Why not just ride Covid out in Florida where the rules are less onerous?

 

[ford family]

Yes - that is interesting. As of now, no cruise ships are permitted to port in Canada and Canadians are under an official Travel Advisory to avoid all cruise ship travel. I sure hope the world has set itself to right by the fall and we can welcome you here. I suspect there may be more itinerary changes announced and perhaps even full-on cancellation. I haven't had the heart to book anything, no matter how far out.

The only cruises we are booking are to create somewhere to park our future cruise credits!
This Princess cruise was the FCC from an Australian cruise that was cut short in February, which was rolled into a January 21 Caribbean cruise and is now sitting in the Quebec one!
We have similar build ups with NCL, now sitting as an Icelandic cruise in May 21, looking unlikely, and with MSC, now sitting in a Dubai to Trieste cruise in April 22, which may happen.

One of theses cruises will come good one of these days!

ford family

 

[Aladora]

Expect Canada to be far more restricted. It’s like Marshall Law when returning. It’s amazing and concerning how fast they got control of the subjects.

USA Covid cases per million: 76,018
Canada Covid cases per million: 19,399

USA Covid deaths per million: 1,268
Canada Covid deaths per million: 496

Yes, Canada has had much tougher restrictions but the USA has four times the amount of cases per million people and almost three times the amount of deaths per million.

I really think that the numbers speak for themselves.

 

[ford family]

I wouldn't look at it this way...unless you would apply an even stronger feeling towards Australia and New Zealand who have been far more restrictive in travel when it comes to their borders to others in the world. I was more speaking about your choice of "antipathy".

*And I'm not picking on AU or NZ they have their restrictions because they feel they are most appropriate.

Not sure if we are at cross purposes here. The antipathy refers to US, or EU, or AUS, or NZ towards UK travellers at this time. Fully justified as well, no offence taken. It is the antonym of "sympathy".

ford family

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

USA Covid cases per million: 76,018
Canada Covid cases per million: 19,399

USA Covid deaths per million: 1,268
Canada Covid deaths per million: 496

Yes, Canada has had much tougher restrictions but the USA has four times the amount of cases per million people and almost three times the amount of deaths per million.

I really think that the numbers speak for themselves.

I don't really agree with the poster but don't you think we've moved past raw numbers in comparisons? Clearly there are many factors involved. In the many months since this has started that should be really apparent at this time.

CA for example has been under heavy restrictions including a stay a home order recently but their numbers are crazy high. There's large concerns that a variant there is running crazy, there's been multiple situations of variants found within the U.S. that coincide with an explosion relative to the numbers at the time and when no other such major factors could reasonable be solely responsible. We aren't doing near enough genetic sequencing though. But that's one teensy part. Comparing numbers is trying to apply a simplistic answer to a very complicated, convoluted, intricate situation and that goes for every country out there.

 

[Aladora]

Comparing numbers is trying to apply a simplistic answer to a very complicated, convoluted, intricate situation and that goes for every country out there.

The post I was responding to compared the restrictions to martial law (which BTW has not been proclaimed in Canada since 1839, interestingly the War Measures Act was not the same as martial law). When debating such a farfetched comparison, it is best to simplify a response for clarity's sake. (Also for clarity, it is martial law not Marshall law.)

Edited to add: I only realized the Marshall vs martial thing because my son was talking about in his Individuals & Society class this week...I thought it was Marshall!

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Not sure if we are at cross purposes here. The antipathy refers to US, or EU, or AUS, or NZ towards UK travellers at this time. Fully justified as well, no offence taken. It is the antonym of "sympathy".

ford family

I was trying to say it's not a decision or attitude borne out of lack of sympathy towards one's plight. It's done as a protection measure, fully justified but not because we (or AU or NZ) doesn't actually want visitors coming from X country or region. At least that's how I look at it.

It's as impartial approach as could be largely based on numbers, variants, etc. Given the most recent decision to require everyone entering the U.S. by air including citizens to present a negative test of 72hours from departure or that you've recovered from COVID in the last 90s days I don't think that decision is made from a lack of sympathy, it applies to us all, no such consideration for citizenship.

Cruising is a difficult industry to do when so much of it depends on going from port to port which is often in different countries. Maybe if this air passenger testing requirement goes well something can be worked out there but ports of call don't have near the same set up as airports. Cruising hasn't really restarted, oh sure some cruises here and there but really it's still stalled out. I believe the CDC has a phased approach for cruise operations with a lot of rules in play until something like early November here and it isn't based on nationality of the passengers. That may be in part why your September cruise was adjusted.

 

[bcwife76]

The province of British Columbia laid out it's vaccination plan to include the general public as well. Four phases of vaccination, we are currently in phase 1. Two shots, given 35 days apart. My age group will be eligible to receive first dose in July, second dose in August. We will be able to preregister for our shots together 2-4 weeks before we are eligible to receive the first dose. 4.3million vaccinated by end of September is their plan, leaving just 900,000 unvaccinated (those in the 0-17 age category). This time line could shift backwards if we have any more delays (we are delayed for the next couple of weeks with our Pfizer delivery) or pushed forward if more vaccines are approved (J&J and AstraZeneca).

 

[Aladora]

The province of British Columbia laid out it's vaccination plan to include the general public as well. Four phases of vaccination, we are currently in phase 1. Two shots, given 35 days apart. My age group will be eligible to receive first dose in July, second dose in August. We will be able to preregister for our shots together 2-4 weeks before we are eligible to receive the first dose. 4.3million vaccinated by end of September is their plan, leaving just 900,000 unvaccinated (those in the 0-17 age category). This time line could shift backwards if we have any more delays (we are delayed for the next couple of weeks with our Pfizer delivery) or pushed forward if more vaccines are approved (J&J and AstraZeneca).

I *really* hope my almost 16 year old will be able to get the vaccine that is rated 16+ soon after he turns 16 in July!

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The post I was responding to compared the restrictions to martial law (which BTW has not been proclaimed in Canada since 1839, interestingly the War Measures Act was not the same as martial law). When debating such a farfetched comparison, it is best to simplify a response for clarity's sake. (Also for clarity, it is martial law not Marshall law.)

I know what they were comparing things to...it's also why I explicitly said I didn't really agree with them

I believe the point you were trying to make is the lack of restrictions has led to a large difference in the data you listed and the presence of restrictions in Canada has led to a large difference in the data you listed and in your efforts to be as concise as possible you listed just that data. I propositioned that after all this time it's a lot more complicated than that such that the usage of numbers won't make the point.

There's so much more in play than mere restrictions which I tried to give an example of. Look at how we discuss the UK and their variant. We don't compare numbers and say that speaks for themselves. We say "oh look they have a seemingly more infectious strain that is causing issues", same for the South African variant. The U.S. has its own variants. The 20C-US traced back to TX in May and according to researchers comprises of half of the samples taken in the U.S. It made its way around the Midwest, especially the Upper Midwest, in the fall and now winter and other parts of the country. I seriously wonder if this variant is responsible for the explosion of cases in my state in late October/early November. It was too early for the holidays to be the blame and the weather wasn't bad yet. Could the variant combined with increase in indoors created the situation? IDK but the restrictions didn't change during that time period and had been that way for months before.

Imagine all the scientific data we could know if only the U.S. was doing so much more genetic testing that it is presently doing. Absence of research into why numbers are what they are leads people to easily assume it's the U.S. being 'Merica (hopefully that particular reference is understood) and just merely that. I really hope the U.S. takes the time to get this information for at least hindsight purposes.

 

[bcwife76]

I *really* hope my almost 16 year old will be able to get the vaccine that is rated 16+ soon after he turns 16 in July!

I'll cross my fingers for you! My kids are 10 and 12 (oldest turns 13 in August) so the hope of them being vaccinated before schools starts again in September is not good at this point but hey, September is a long way off!!

 

[Aladora]

I seriously wonder if this variant is responsible for the explosion of cases in my state in late October/early November. It was too early for the holidays to be the blame and the weather wasn't bad yet. Could the variant combined with increase in indoors created the situation? IDK but the restrictions didn't change during that time period and had been that way for months before.

I wonder if schools resuming in September is responsible for some of the increase in cases?

I'm on a similar page to you. Quite simply, this stuff is complicated and there is no single reason for cases increasing or decreasing but part of that metric has to be restrictions PLUS compliance to those restrictions. When people bridle against restrictions, that has to be taken into account for looking at the results.

 

[ronandannette]

The only cruises we are booking are to create somewhere to park our future cruise credits!
This Princess cruise was the FCC from an Australian cruise that was cut short in February, which was rolled into a January 21 Caribbean cruise and is now sitting in the Quebec one!
We have similar build ups with NCL, now sitting as an Icelandic cruise in May 21, looking unlikely, and with MSC, now sitting in a Dubai to Trieste cruise in April 22, which may happen.

One of theses cruises will come good one of these days!

ford family

I'm rootin' for ya! We've got credit-balances with a number of the different travel providers involved when we cancelled our long-planned British Isles epic adventure booked for last May. Some gave us our money back but some were credit only. Princess gave us a refund AND a credit towards a future sailing which, at this point is happening in my imagination only.

 

[ronandannette]

The province of British Columbia laid out it's vaccination plan to include the general public as well. Four phases of vaccination, we are currently in phase 1. Two shots, given 35 days apart. My age group will be eligible to receive first dose in July, second dose in August. We will be able to preregister for our shots together 2-4 weeks before we are eligible to receive the first dose. 4.3million vaccinated by end of September is their plan, leaving just 900,000 unvaccinated (those in the 0-17 age category). This time line could shift backwards if we have any more delays (we are delayed for the next couple of weeks with our Pfizer delivery) or pushed forward if more vaccines are approved (J&J and AstraZeneca).

Availability of these will be game-changing given that J&J is single-dose only and both have much less-rigorous transport and storage requirements. As I understand it, the AZ/Oxford vaccine is also a more conventional type of vaccine than the mRNA products which may ease the minds of some and increase the participation rate.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I wonder if schools resuming in September is responsible for some of the increase in cases?

I'm on a similar page to you. Quite simply, this stuff is complicated and there is no single reason for cases increasing or decreasing but part of that metric has to be restrictions PLUS compliance to those restrictions. When people bridle against restrictions, that has to be taken into account for looking at the results.

For sure, I was just saying it's a combination of things

In my county I don't think schools are as responsible if I listen to my county's epidemiologist with the health department who has said spread in school is not really there. If anything I feel like spread would have been running around rampant before school as kids more easily could get together socially even if that wasn't recommended. I think laxness towards precautions is responsible for some, I think misinformation is responsible for some, I think increased testing efforts is responsible for the discovery of more cases, the shifting of the weather some but honestly we've had a fairly mild winter. There have been virtually no change in restrictions since May (a bit of less restrictions in June) other than a mask mandate added in early July and some changes to restaurant closing time and a rollback of capacity/mass gathering amounts both of those last two added in mid-November and those two last ones were specific to my area. I'll tell you observationally mask wearing is high enough IMO, never perfect but I rarely see people without masks in situations where they are supposed to in public, sometimes not properly of course. That may not be the case elsewhere in the state though.

This is my county:



For my state as a whole this is the graph:


The sudden increase is late October/early November with a virus that has a 14-day incubation period. IDK I really couldn't tell you if it's the variant interacting but it's def. got my interest piqued. I know my state is testing more genetically especially looking for the UK variant.

 

[NFLDERS]

More interesting stuff:
A week or so ago we had a village where there were 30 infections at 1 school, all British mutations, this later rose to 46.
So they decided to test the entire village, 70% participated, which was 45.000 people. They are half way done, 242 people had Covid, some without symptoms. 12% was the British mutation, which is about average for NL. All those with the British mutation could be connected to that school. It didn't jump to other schools. It's not known what the source of the outbreak was.
What was also interesting, is that for the young children they tested (the tests were as of 2 year old), they had a little piece of cotton suck on for 10 minutes. I hadn't heard of that method for kids. I thought everyone had the stick up their brains.

And another case of 'whoops!' Officially there are 2 languages in the Netherlands: Dutch and Frysian. Frysian is only spoken in one of the Northern provinces. But as it's an official language, all the information the government sends out has to be at least in these two languages. For the new measures regarding the curfew, they had published it in 11 languages for all the expats and people who are not native Dutch, except their second official language ;-)

Just wanted to offer concern in the ongoing protests.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/netherlands-coronavirus-curfew-protest-1.5885662