Court to Disneyland-Study Use Of Segways

[bookwormde]

Just so it is clear disney can decide what mobility devices it will allow for individuals that do not qualify under ADA 2009 or that do not declare that they are disabled under ADA 2009.

I would be surprised it disney rents standing mobility devices beyond what they already have as part of "tours", but I am sure private rental companies will once there is a set policy.

There are lots of disabiity characteristics under ADA 2009 which would limit stamina for walking yet allow a person to have the balance capability and stamina to operate as standing mobiity device.

 

[Schmeck]

You missed the whole point!.....................The ADA needs to be changed so the people that need them can use them............NOT EVERYONE.......as this creates a safety issue, often because the people renting them and not needing them......likely don't know how to use them!

BTW.your wrong ..........Disney can restrict who they rent to and have for years.........one example is kids and teenagers,they cannot rent scooter.


I can only hope Disney proves their point that this is a major safety issue and its thrown out of court and the folks that need to stand and ride, can use ESV's.


Best check your facts!


AKK

Best check your definitions - limiting a rental of scooters by age (to a minor) is not descrimination. Limiting a rental based on a disability, or lack there of, is discrimination. If one does not have to show proof for something, nor is given a service exceeding the general public, then allowing a discriminating set of standards is illegal.

You also stated that Disney needs to set a policy, not the ADA. Disney cannot set that policy, as I stated.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for ADA regulations regarding disability requirements to be changed. Too many people worked for too long to get the freedom and dignity of the 'don't ask, don't tell' parts of the ADA. Would you like to be challenged for every little accommodation made in public? Would you like to describe over and over again the disability that prevents you from equal access? I certainly do not want to have to keep showing the gaping chunk missing out of my leg every time I need an accommodation. I like being able to use curb cuts, instead of stepping down off the curb - should those only be used by wheelchair users and ECVs?

 

[Schmeck]

Just so it is clear disney can decide what mobility devices it will allow for individuals that do not qualify under ADA 2009 or that do not declare that they are disabled under ADA 2009.

I would be surprised it disney rents standing mobility devices beyond what they already have as part of "tours", but I am sure private rental companies will once there is a set policy.

There are lots of disabiity characteristics under ADA 2009 which would limit stamina for walking yet allow a person to have the balance capability and stamina to operate as standing mobiity device.

But can Disney ask if you are disabled? They cannot ask you to show proof, I know that. I thought they could only ask if an animal was a service animal and provided a certain accommodation to the person with the animal.

 

[fredkap]

Paragraph 36.311

(2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public accommodation may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public accommodation that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual´s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public accommodation shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards.

 

[livndisney]

Paragraph 36.311

(2) Inquiry into use of other power-driven mobility device. A public accommodation may ask a person using an other power-driven mobility device to provide a credible assurance that the mobility device is required because of the person´s disability. A public accommodation that permits the use of an other power-driven mobility device by an individual with a mobility disability shall accept the presentation of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, as a credible assurance that the use of the other power-driven mobility device is for the individual´s mobility disability. In lieu of a valid, State-issued disability parking placard or card, or State-issued proof of disability, a public accommodation shall accept as a credible assurance a verbal representation, not contradicted by observable fact, that the other power-driven mobility device is being used for a mobility disability. A "valid" disability placard or card is one that is presented by the individual to whom it was issued and is otherwise in compliance with the State of issuance´s requirements for disability placards or cards.

And how many people carry their disability placard with them? They put it in/on their car. So I fail to see how this prevents anyone from "abusing" segway use. As far as "credible" assurance, ANYONE can "claim" a disability (as they do now). Nothing you posted makes Segway use safe or limits it to those with disabilities.

 

[SueM in MN]

But can Disney ask if you are disabled? They cannot ask you to show proof, I know that. I thought they could only ask if an animal was a service animal and provided a certain accommodation to the person with the animal.

You can be asked if the animal is a service animal required because of a disability and what work or task the animal has been individually trained to do.

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

[EastYorkDisneyFan]

Also segways can be very unpredictable in a tight space one time when I was on the around the world on a segway tour in Epcot someone on the topur some how got it to climb the side of a wall. One wheel got stuck beside it and it over compensated and he fell off, luckily by that point all of us behind him were really god a stopping. Nothing was hurt other then his pride, but if something like that happened with a big crowed of people around I don't think the out come would be so good.

 

[fredkap]

One of the reasons there is so much resistance to Segways here are that people take the Epcot tour once or twice and think that they have been adequately trained and fully understand the machines. Segs4Vets spends half a day with one on one training with each of our disabled users. Then that person is using their Segway for several hours a day, every day. The "unpredictable" problem of trying to power through a situation when one wheel is caught on an unmoveable object becomes very predictable and is handled without incident.

 

[SueM in MN]

One of the reasons there is so much resistance to Segways here are that people take the Epcot tour once or twice and think that they have been adequately trained and fully understand the machines. Segs4Vets spends half a day with one on one training with each of our disabled users. Then that person is using their Segway for several hours a day, every day. The "unpredictable" problem of trying to power through a situation when one wheel is caught on an unmoveable object becomes very predictable and is handled without incident.

I think you are missing one of the points.

If Segways are allowed into WDW for use by guests with disabilities, some will be people who have their own and are adequately trained.

People are mentioning the Segway tours because if Segways are allowed into the WDW parks, there will be demand for renting them. This demand will very likely be filled by off-site companies providing them for people to rent just the same way as off-site companies rent ECVs.
There is no training at all done by most of the ECV rental companies - they are just dropped off at Bell Services and picked up by the person who is renting them.
They would have to do some training/instruction before the renter uses a Segway, but it would likely be no more than is given for the Segway tours (if even that much). The tours involve an hour of instruction inside plus a well supervised hour outside (for the Segway tours, the second hour outside is in World Showcase before it is open to the public).

Some of the people would be disabled, but it is likely that some would not.
All that is required for a credible assurance verbal representation is for the person to say “I need to use this Segway as a mobility device because I am disabled.” Because there is not a stigma associated with using a Segway and they are fun, there is a good likelihood that non-disabled people would say they were disabled just to be able to use a Segway in the park.

With ECVs, there is little or no screening to see if the person can safely use an ECV. I have, in fact seen people who were using one who could not control it and even several who did not have the cognitive skill to use one.
People are afraid that the same kind of things that have happened with off-site rentals of ECVs could easily happen with Segways.

THe last thing is speed - DIsney limits the speed of the ECVs they rent, but the ones rented from off-site companies go much faster and WDW can do little about that (except telling guests going too fast that they need to slow down.
This is likely to be the case with Segways too.

 

[fredkap]

I think you are missing one of the points.

If Segways are allowed into WDW for use by guests with disabilities, some will be people who have their own and are adequately trained.

People are mentioning the Segway tours because if Segways are allowed into the WDW parks, there will be demand for renting them. This demand will very likely be filled by off-site companies providing them for people to rent just the same way as off-site companies rent ECVs.
There is no training at all done by most of the ECV rental companies - they are just dropped off at Bell Services and picked up by the person who is renting them.
They would have to do some training/instruction before the renter uses a Segway, but it would likely be no more than is given for the Segway tours (if even that much). The tours involve an hour of instruction inside plus a well supervised hour outside (for the Segway tours, the second hour outside is in World Showcase before it is open to the public).

Some of the people would be disabled, but it is likely that some would not.
All that is required for a credible assurance verbal representation is for the person to say “I need to use this Segway as a mobility device because I am disabled.” Because there is not a stigma associated with using a Segway and they are fun, there is a good likelihood that non-disabled people would say they were disabled just to be able to use a Segway in the park.

With ECVs, there is little or no screening to see if the person can safely use an ECV. I have, in fact seen people who were using one who could not control it and even several who did not have the cognitive skill to use one.
People are afraid that the same kind of things that have happened with off-site rentals of ECVs could easily happen with Segways.

THe last thing is speed - DIsney limits the speed of the ECVs they rent, but the ones rented from off-site companies go much faster and WDW can do little about that (except telling guests going too fast that they need to slow down.
This is likely to be the case with Segways too.

Sue,

Disney is allowed to restrict machines to go pedestrian speed. That can be accomplished with simple programming or by edict. Any one using a machine at an excessive speed can be immediately ejected. Any Segway rental company that has a history of renting to users that don't follow Disney's rules or rents to incompetent individuals can be prohibited from having their machines on Disney property. I am not saying that I have all of the answers and solutions. I do know that neither Universal Studios nor the San Diego Zoo have had the problems that you are understandably concerned about. If Disney had allowed a trial period and had a demonstrable problem then they would not be in the two lawsuits that they presently are in. I personally am opposed to all Segway rentals to inexperienced users. Tours do not normally require a full understanding of the machine but some tour operators have ridiculously high accident rates directly due to poor training. If Disney wanted to have a workable Segway policy they could have one. If Disney were smart they would institute a 30 or 90 day trial period for Segways and use their excellent guest relations to separate the appropriate users from newbies. The court stated that it had every confidence that Disney could make their parks more welcoming to disabled Segway guests.

 

[bookwormde]

But can Disney ask if you are disabled? They cannot ask you to show proof, I know that. I thought they could only ask if an animal was a service animal and provided a certain accommodation to the person with the animal.

Actually the burden is on the individual with a disabilty to self declare before they are afforded rights under ADA.

A commercial verture also has the right to refuse if they have certainty that the person does not have a disability under ADA 2009, but if they are wrong and the person prevails in a hearing thier liability is significant, so most understand that they do not have the neccesary information to make that determination, this refusal is much more common in the employment enviroment where there is longer tern knowlege of the individual.

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

Best check your definitions - limiting a rental of scooters by age (to a minor) is not descrimination. Limiting a rental based on a disability, or lack there of, is discrimination. If one does not have to show proof for something, nor is given a service exceeding the general public, then allowing a discriminating set of standards is illegal.

You also stated that Disney needs to set a policy, not the ADA. Disney cannot set that policy, as I stated.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for ADA regulations regarding disability requirements to be changed. Too many people worked for too long to get the freedom and dignity of the 'don't ask, don't tell' parts of the ADA. Would you like to be challenged for every little accommodation made in public? Would you like to describe over and over again the disability that prevents you from equal access? I certainly do not want to have to keep showing the gaping chunk missing out of my leg every time I need an accommodation. I like being able to use curb cuts, instead of stepping down off the curb - should those only be used by wheelchair users and ECVs?

You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals..........they are getting a lot of flack form the disabled over that, not to mention health depts., etc......


Your statement was wrong. Disney can set any policy their want as long as it follows ADA guidelines.....Frankly, Disney or any parks or company does not have to rent anything. The court has told Disney to confirm their evidence that segways are unsafe and explore ways to provide the folks that need a standing vehicle a way to use one....E.I........... ESV.

It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.


I never said anyone needs to tell anyone about their disability.......it has nothing to do with my comments. But you got your mileage have of it. trying to scare people into thinking the safety is not the issue.


AKK

 

[kaytieeldr]

You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals.

I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?

 

[SueM in MN]

I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?

It was in the 2010 changes, which took effect in 2012 - I believe in March, along with the design changes.

Here is the source - scroll down all the way to the end:
http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

[bookwormde]

It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.



AKK

It has yet to be determined if standing mobility devices if properly regulated represent a signifcant safety issue.

There are funtinal differences between standing mobility devices and ESV so each may provide a better meaure of "as equivelent an experiance" for peoplle with differnt needs related to thier disability, and Disney can not mandate which to use if both can be used safely.

 

[Schmeck]

You may want to check your facts Sir.the ADA rules are changed and amended very often..its not a document in cement........just last month they added a silly thing that tiny horses can be service animals..........they are getting a lot of flack form the disabled over that, not to mention health depts., etc......


Your statement was wrong. Disney can set any policy their want as long as it follows ADA guidelines.....Frankly, Disney or any parks or company does not have to rent anything. The court has told Disney to confirm their evidence that segways are unsafe and explore ways to provide the folks that need a standing vehicle a way to use one....E.I........... ESV.

It's not a little thing It a MAJOR SAFETY issue! There is no need for segways.......as there are ESV available.


I never said anyone needs to tell anyone about their disability.......it has nothing to do with my comments. But you got your mileage have of it. trying to scare people into thinking the safety is not the issue.


AKK

You said Disney needs to change their policy - if it is against ADA, then Disney cannot set a policy to allow only certain people to use a certain device for accessibility.

Yes, ADA changes, amends, to make things more of equal access, not the other way around. Adding descriptions to clarify (as in, the mini horses) makes it more equal access, and less of a hassle for the person using the service animal, etc.

You wanted Segways only used by certain people, those who 'deserve' to use them. I understand the safety issue. How are you determining who 'deserves' to use the Segway? A safety test? Who will be in charge of the safety test, what are the parameters, what standards will have to be met? Will there have to be proof of disability? (If so, then you have another set of standards that have to be met, BTW). How can Disney set these standards without coming into conflict with the core idea of ADA, which is nonintrusive equal access?

Telling about a disability - that's at the core of your argument too. You are trying to limit use of a mobility device. You want people to prove a disability, which would require either someone carry a "hangtag" of some sort all the time (like a label on a person, hey look, I'm disabled!) or having to explain over and over again what the disability is.

Also, I'm not a Sir, LOL!

 

[Schmeck]

Actually the burden is on the individual with a disabilty to self declare before they are afforded rights under ADA.

A commercial verture also has the right to refuse if they have certainty that the person does not have a disability under ADA 2009, but if they are wrong and the person prevails in a hearing thier liability is significant, so most understand that they do not have the neccesary information to make that determination, this refusal is much more common in the employment enviroment where there is longer tern knowlege of the individual.

One would only have to declare if needs were not being met. The ADA is all about getting those needs met so one would not have to declare a thing.

Also, a commercial venture would only have to refuse if a person declared his/her needs were not being met.

 

[bookwormde]

AKK[/QUOTE]

One would only have to declare if needs were not being met. The ADA is all about getting those needs met so one would not have to declare a thing.

Also, a commercial venture would only have to refuse if a person declared his/her needs were not being met.

Yes if there are in place structures that allow equal access (experiance) that are not limited to individuals with disabiity then there is no need to declare.

So a person declares as a component of a request for equal access

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

It has yet to be determined if standing mobility devices if properly regulated represent a signifcant safety issue.

There are funtinal differences between standing mobility devices and ESV so each may provide a better meaure of "as equivelent an experiance" for peoplle with differnt needs related to thier disability, and Disney can not mandate which to use if both can be used safely.

The segways have been proven in crowed ares to be a safety issue with many accident and lawsuits now in effect......they have be outlawed in some areas of big cities and at least 2 shopping malls due to accidents and suits.

They can indeed if they prove to the court the safety issue!

 

[Tonka's Skipper]

I can't find this anywhere. I can find that the Justice Department ordered the use of miniature horses be considered, back in April 2011; I can find that the state of Illinois has approved miniature horses as guide animals (recently, I think). But I can't find a change to the ADA effective June 2012. What's your source, if you don't mind?

My pardon,I meant to say.........last month it was discussed in a thread.....

*BAD ME*

AKK