Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by WillyJ
But thus far Barnes' account of getting Bush into the Guard ahead of others has not been challenged and since this is the part bush has repeatedly denied it shows him to be a liar and the rest doesn't change that a bit. .

Yes it has.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/9/9/202100.shtml

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by WillyJ

This is the start of a bad couple weeks for Boy George. . Graham's book and Kitty Kelley's book have much more damaging charges he's going to have to deal with. . .

WOW!!!

These are some serious accusations. I know I'll be rethinking my vote

Some cases Kelley is able to make:

*George Bush has started drinking again. His history includes cocaine use at Camp David, by eyewitness account, which is even more dangerous to the republic. Bush has never admitted this, but Kelley has enough details to be convincing.

*Laura Bush has gotten a free ride from the media, but a covered-up wreck that killed a boy in Texas and past drug use can change that, once Kelley brings out the details.

*Bush associates (as verified on the political site www.salon.com) have noticed his increasingly erratic behavior, including open swearing by a man who wears his religion on his sleeve and all over his wardrobe.

*George Bush now fits the bill on all 13 characteristics on the Hare Psychopathy Checklist. He also is known to have had Attention Deficit Disorder, ADD, since childhood.

*George and Laura are on the rocks. He has broken his promise to stay off the sauce. He drug her into his family obligation to acquire power, against her will, and now that has led to a quest for world domination -- well beyond the expectations of a middle-class librarian from the smoggy oilfields of Midland, Texas.

*The Bush daughters are out of control. Even while working on his campaign from a suburban Virginia office, they are drinking practically all night long. Secret Service agents are finding them a more difficult assignment than protecting the president.

*Bush's conservative base, especially the domestic oil interests, are revolting, and not in the way you Liberals think. Texas loyalists who put Dubya and Poppy in high office, like Jimmy Allison, the Hearst of Texas, have been insulted and frozen out, and they are mad as heck. The Texas oil people are not people to be trifled with. They know that ol' Dubya is betraying them to return to the Bushes' first loyalty: to the Harriman and Rockefeller families of New York.

*Kitty Kelley has a large number of details that point to an abortion for a Bush girlfriend in the past. Presto! He's Hypocrite-in-Chief, even to conservatives.

*The Bush campaign has been based on discrediting the military service of John Kerry (even though Bush passed altogether on Vietnam), but his grandfather, Prescott Bush, practically invented fake medals! The family had Prescott's World War I exploits plastered on the front page of a Columbus, Ohio, newspaper -- including a claim that he earned the highest medal from three governments. It had to be retracted when the family admitted Captain Prescott had not even come under fire! Is Kelley's reporting of "three generations" ancient history? Perhaps, but if the Bush campaign goes back two wars, Kitty might as well go back a few more.

*Kitty Kelley details many people done dirty by the Bushes over many years. There are many axes to grind and many chickens to come home for dinner.

*Government insiders can sink any presidency any day of any year by leaks, disinformation, and sheer power. Dubya's underlings are ready to pull the plug and jump ship. Colin Powell will not be in the next Bush administration.

*George Bush is being told that the national budget and trade deficits are not sustainable and (by advisor Matt Simmons) that the world is running out of energy. Bush knows when world oil production will peak.. He's just not telling. As the energy goes, so goes the economy. It won't be long until "Bushvilles" join the national lexicon alongside "Hoovervilles." It won't happen until after the election of 2004 -- Bush can manage that.

*George Bush does not handle stress well -- lots of details on that. He is becoming as unglued as a cardboard house in a cloudburst.

*Kitty Kelley was paid $4 million to write "The Family." This is one thing she won't tell. It is a political hit piece, bought and paid for by Doubleday publishers but underwritten by Bush enemies. They have indemnified Doubleday, though it's unnecessary since the book will sell a million copies. The Bush-betrayed will see that the word gets out. Over and above all of this, the book is well documented, thorough, and thoroughly convincing.

*George Bush has personally alienated the political head of every country in the world, including Britain's Tony Blair. All of them hope against hope for his defeat in the election. A big question is how long many of these leaders, especially Vladimir Putin, will keep fronting for Bush.

*The Bush family is basically a crime family, an Anglo version of the Gambinos or the Sopranos, but with the Army for "muscle." Follow the money, as the research arm of Kitty Kelley & Co. has, and you will see who is pulling Bush's strings. He is not your president but merely the front man for those padding his bank accounts.

*George Bush and other members of his administration will probably be indicted, if not tried, for crimes for blowing the cover of CIA operative Valerie Plame, wife of Ambassador Joe Wilson. The criminal investigation is under way and it will lead straight to the Oval Office.

"Both George Bushes are beholden to Saudi Arabian interests. They serve these interests while pretending to serve Israeli interests. Do not blame the Zionists for Bush's actions.

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by dmadman43


As for the what typewriters could do in 1972. Try this for an experiment. Type 111th in Word and see what you get. It will look a lot like the 111th you get in the memo being quoted. How on earth did they do that in 1972 and better yet, why? I'm sure AFR can tell us the AF can be pretty anal about formatting and following standards. Like they changed my Squadron from being 81st TRSS to 81 TRSS...if you typed 81st TRSS your letter would be squashed from the admins. Also if you tryed to get fancy with the formatting they would send it back. I'm not sure if this was the case in 1972 though. Is there anyone on here that was in the AF during that time that would know?

I used to sell IBM Selectrics and I don’t remember proportional spacing before the mid-80’s. Back in ’72, everybody used typewriters, and IBM Selectrics didn’t do proportional spacing with superscripts.

I also note with interest that the text is kerned. How was one able to do that with typewriters in '72?

Can't help you with the early 70's (and I seriously doubt AFR can either she would have been an infant I think ) but when I joined the AF in 1978 they were just introducing electric typewriters. I took my first week of typing class (Jun 78) on a manual typewriter When I got to my base we had a few electric ones, don't remember them being able to do proportional spacing or superscripts either but it was a long time ago. I do remember how excited we all go when they introduced the Selectrics that could correct mistakes.

I have some questions about the formatting of the memos but then if they really were just for this guys' personal records maybe he typed them himself and that's why the formats look strange. Them being his personal memos also explains why the Pentagon and the White House didn't have copies of them (but one does have to wonder how they turned up now). My biggest thing during all this crap has been that no one has taken the time to research and learn that most of this is not unusual - backdating OMG that happens all the time - falsified - well if that's the case I've falsified a few reports in my time....those poor folks will never be able to run for office

 

[Mermaid02]

"Amazing" that Kitty Kelley is able to get "proof" of all of this and nobody else has been able to

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by Mermaid02
"Amazing" that Kitty Kelley is able to get "proof" of all of this and nobody else has been able to

Also, Sharon Bush denies telling K K that she saw GW use cocaine.

 

[Mermaid02]

Yeah, Kelley ought to work for the CIA- she's good! LOL

Kitty Kelley is less than scrupulous.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
Also, Sharon Bush denies telling K K that she saw GW use cocaine.

and a third party who was present when Sharon Bush said it has confirmed that she said precisely that.

 

[jmmom80]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
and a third party who was present when Sharon Bush said it has confirmed that she said precisely that.

one of them is obviously lying - how do you determine which one?

 

[Mermaid02]

Who is that third party??

 

[faithinkarma]

I don't remember the name. It was on the news last night. Apparently the interview took place at a lunch with a third person present and they have backed up the statement.

 

[Mermaid02]

Was that person a guest of Sharon Bush or Kitty Kelley?

 

[Geoff_M]

While not impossible, I have a hard time believing that the Bush people would distrubiute the four memos without questioning thier accuracy if they had any doubts about them. . .

What exactly would the WH have to gain by NOT passing out the documents from CBS? The documents were also available straight from CBS's web site, so it wouldn't have done them any good to not hand them out and risk charges of being "uncooperative".

Even if they suspected they were fakes, all the more reason to hand them out. It's simple, keep your mouth shut about their authenticity, hand them out, and let others point out the obvious problems with the documents... CBS's over eagerness to release the documents, part of dinosaur media's attempt to drag their guy over the finish line, blows up in their face... and the WH comes out untarnished in the matter. Wait a minute... you don't suppose this is all part of some vast right-wing conspiracy to discredit Dan Rather, do you?

As for a "bad few weeks" for Bush. It was widely predicted as the ballons fell in NYC that dinosaur media would come out with guns-a-blazing against Bush... and it's happening. But so far they seem to be firing mostly blanks.... Beating the dead-horse that is Bush's ANG service, Kitty's book that's so poorly documented that except for Today... none of the Bush-hating MSM'ers seem willing to touch it with a ten-foot pole (and they'll probably be even more gun-shy about it after CBS' apparent accidentially self-inflicted credibility wound).

 

[faithinkarma]

I would ask if the documents are fake, then why did the WH release them? Surely if what they say is untrue, the president would know this and have immediately known the documents were fake?

But of course, as we know, the WH has been taken in by forgeries before:

The comments came after the White House released a statement admitting: "We now know that documents alleging a transaction between Iraq and Niger had been forged."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/08/sprj.irq.uranium/

 

[Mermaid02]

Because if they suspected they were fake- let CBS use them and HANG themselves with them....If they (CBS) didn't check it all out thoroughly enough, they deserve to suffer the fallout.

 

[jmmom80]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
I would ask if the documents are fake, then why did the WH release them? Surely if what they say is untrue, the president would know this and have immediately known the documents were fake?

But of course, as we know, the WH has been taken in by forgeries before:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/07/08/sprj.irq.uranium/

why would they not release them? the docs were already out in the public domain.

 

[faithinkarma]

Are you really trying to say that they received copies of memos that they knew to be false.....and they released them without a word, trusting that others would prove them false?

That the president sat there and thought...well, I know this never happened, but let's just go ahead and go along with the story for now? Would you do that if your honor was questioned? Would any rational person? Surely you would at least make mention of the fact that you stand by your story and trust that the doccuments will prove false?

 

[jmmom80]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
Are you really trying to say that they received copies of memos that they knew to be false.....and they released them without a word, trusting that others would prove them false?

That the president sat there and thought...well, I know this never happened, but let's just go ahead and go along with the story for now? Would you do that if your honor was questioned? Would any rational person? Surely you would at least make mention of the fact that you stand by your story and trust that the doccuments will prove false?

interesting how you are trying to make this into a bush screw-up for not knowing they were (or so it seems now) fake, but you have nothing to say about cbs not figuring out they were possibly fake when they obtained them.

 

[faithinkarma]

I'm not trying to make this into a Bush screw up at all. I am saying that the president knows what happened, so he had no reason to suspect the documents were fake.

If what is purported never happened, the president would know they were fake immediately would he not?

 

[jmmom80]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
I'm not trying to make this into a Bush screw up at all. I am saying that the president knows what happened, so he had no reason to suspect the documents were fake.

If what is purported never happened, the president would know they were fake immediately would he not?

he may well have, and he may have decided rather than jumping up and down like a poodle on speed and whining about the unfairness of it, he would get expert opinions to back up the claim of forgery.

believe it or not, some people do know how to get things done behind the scene.

 

[Geoff_M]

I have some questions about the formatting of the memos but then if they really were just for this guys' personal records maybe he typed them himself and that's why the formats look strange. Them being his personal memos also explains why the Pentagon and the White House didn't have copies of them (but one does have to wonder how they turned up now).

Killian's widow and adult children have stated that the "memos" were not part of any personal collection of their husband/father. They had never seen the documents before CBS produced them. It also doesn't asnwer questions such why the signatures don't seem to match. I suppose that it's possible that he had memos typed on a computer years later, distroyed the original notes, had someone else sign them in his name, and then give them to someone outside of his family... I'm sure they folks over at DemocraticUnderground would jump on that bandwagon in a second!