Confederate Flag

[gepetto]

I have seen very few people fly the confederate flag to celebrate their "history". Most are just racists who use protecting history as an excuse.

I don't like it. I especially don't like seeing the rebel flag shirts on the elementary school kids. I don't like seeing the license plates or on bumper stickers. It offends a large percentage of our population but obviously some people don't care.

 

[Dopey Sharon]

Being a white girl from New Jersey who hated history and didn't really pay attention in class...when I see that flag I think of The Dukes of Hazzard!

 

[Blondie]

just because some people have decided to attach bad images to this flag, that does not mean others who never had this interpretation should have to stop displaying it

I agree.


You don't have to salute the Confederate flag to favor its display.

CHARLOTTESVILLE--In a 1937 Supreme Court case, Justice Ben-
jamin Cardozo opined, "Freedom of expression is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every other form of freedom."

Such should be the logic, some believe, in the debate that continues to rage over the display of the Confederate flag. Battered by politically correct sentiments and racial sensitivities, the Confederate flag has not seen so much action since the battles of Gettysburg and Antietam.

Whether emblazoned on T-shirts, imprinted on license plates, carried in parades, or unfurled from state flagpoles, this symbol of the Old South has become the newest battleground over the First Amendment's right to free speech.

On the front lines of this raging battle are the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Composed of men whose ancestors fought on the side of the South during the Civil War, this group has been denied permission to display its logo--which contains the Confederate battle flag--on everything from specialty license plates to flag markers on graves to civic-organization boards at the entrance to the town limits.

Yet disputes over the Confederate flag have passed beyond the Mason-Dixon Line to become part of a larger debate over what constitutes free expression and what could be considered "fighting words."

Pointing to highly publicized incidents of hate crimes and racist violence, many authorities have opted for acts of censorship to avoid conflict. For example, when confronted with high-school students wearing Confederate flag T-shirts to school, school officials in North Carolina, Virginia, and West Virginia tried to silence such free expression through suspensions. In one Virginia case, two students who wore Confederate flag
T-shirts in recognition of Confederate History Month were suspended for "disrupting the smooth opening of a school day."

Officials at a Kansas middle school suspended one student after he sketched
a Confederate flag--familiar to him from the "Dukes of Hazzard" television show--on a sheet of paper at the request of a friend. According to the school's zero tolerance policy, the Confederate flag is a prohibited symbol of "racial harassment and intimidation." The student sued and lost in court, and the Supreme Court refused to hear his case.

Even Confederate graveyards have come under attack. In Maryland, the Department of Veterans Affairs removed the Confederate flag from Point Lookout Cemetery, which is located on the site of the former Point Lookout prison camp operated by the United States during the Civil War. Point Lookout is the mass burial ground for approximately 3,300 Confederate soldiers who died while imprisoned there. A federal court of appeals rejected an appeal, saying the graveyard's purpose was to honor the dead "as Americans," not as Confederates.

And in an attempt to avert racist or sexist sentiments, one Topeka, Kan., city administrator even went so far as to create a policy prohibiting any "sexually or racially insensitive" emblems or symbols on an employee's privately owned vehicle while parked on government property. The policy was apparently targeted to ban the Confederate battle flag displayed on vehicles.

Fortunately for the sake of the First Amendment, after years in which politically correct chatter has sabotaged free speech, the courts are finally beginning to weigh in on the issue. The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals recently gave a resounding affirmation for free expression when it ruled in favor of the Virginia SCV's right to display the Confederate flag on organizational specialty license plates.

It began in 1999 when the Virginia legislature approved a specialty license plate for the SCV but censored the use of the Confederate Battle Flag, which has been part of the organization's logo since it was founded more than 100 years ago. Although the legislature has permitted dozens of organizations to use their logos on specialty plates (including trade unions, the National Rifle Association, etc.), the SCV is the only group ever denied the right to display its logo on a Virginia license plate.

In response, the SCV filed a civil rights lawsuit alleging that the state of Virginia had denied them rights protected by the U.S. Constitution.

Ruling in favor of the SCV, the Court of Appeals concluded that "the logo restriction is an instance of viewpoint discriminationand a violation of the First Amendment's strictures."

For those who view the victory for the display of the Confederate flag as a defeat for racial tolerance, it is important to remember that censorship can be a terrible two-edged sword--what is popular today can become unpopular and banned tomorrow. That's why the First Amendment, in the words of James Madison, was written. It is there to protect "the minority against the majority."

Thus, although we may not agree with a particular form of speech, it is vital that we protect the right of all citizens to speak. As the renowned French philosopher François Voltaire so aptly put it, "I may disagree with what you have to say, but
I shall defend, to the death, your right
to say it."

JOHN W. WHITEHEAD is founder and president of The Rutherford Institute.

 

[EROS]

Originally posted by aahmom1

The nazi wanna-be's can wear their swastikas too, but don't try to tell me that there are Jewish people who 'don't mind'. I think it's the same thing with the confederate flag.

Most of the racism, nationalism, and religious intolerance in the world takes place without any insignia at all. I was raised a Jew, and I've lived and worked in Jerusalem. I didn't need to see Swastikas there to KNOW that there were thousands of Arabs who HATED me simply because of my background. I despise the Nazis, but I feel that they have a right in our society to espouse their hate. Sorry, we call it..........DEMOCRACY .

Racism is very prevalent in Boston, but we have few Confederate flags here. My African-American friends are much more disgusted by the continuing racism in our institutions than a few "crackers" hoisting a flag..................

 

[CRB#33]

Originally posted by WDWHound
But the swastika wa sthe result of an evil regime. The south, while definitely being in the wrong about slavery, was not an evil regime

That's a good point Hound. I think that before there was such a negative image of this flag, you have to remember what it's original intent was and that very good people don't want to let go of that ORIGINAL meaning.

And they have a right to that

It's the people who took something and made it into something else that need to be addressed. Seems like it happens a lot. Something that is basically benign is turned into something awful and then people claim their rights to keep on furthering a cause.

That's not what this flag ORIGINALLY stood for. If we can get back to that, it changes things a bit.

 

[Steve H.]

I tend to agree with WDWHound and CRB33 -- it's the people using the confederate flag as a rallying cry or a symbol of their hatred that bother me. Thus, it's not the flag that offends me, but rather, the racist or bigot waving the flag around that does offend me.

 

[JohnTBap]

Originally posted by EROS


Most racists practice HATRED AND INTOLERANCE without displaying any insignia; they're just as dangerous those who do.................

Actually, I think that those people are MORE dangerous.

 

[EROS]

Racists and Bigots who fly flags don't bother me...............at least we KNOW where they stand.

The kind of hatred which we endured on 9-11 knows no flags. The racism in many of our corporate and educational institutions knows no flags. The prejudice of the Moral Majority crowd knows no flags..................

 

[AirForceRocks]

The Confederate battle flag obviously has different meanings to different people or groups of people. I can understand the heritage thing with Southeners, though I don't subscribe to it myself, and I can certainly see how black Americans would take offense at the symbolism. Not just the symbolism as it relates to slavery and the Civil War, but also as it relates to the "screw you" attitude that prompted many Southern states to fly the flag again when the Federal government was forcing integration in the South.

Anyone individual that wants to fly it should fly it, for whatever reason. No one in this country has a right to not be offended. You deal with it, and go on. I wouldn't fly one myself, but I wouldn't tell anyone else that they shouldn't fly one.

Having said that, I am totally opposed to flying the Rebel flag on any state buildings, other than in a historical context (Confederate museum, Confederate cemetery, incorporated on a state flag like GA, etc). To fly the Rebel flag on a state building for any other reason is IMO an insult to the United States. The Confederacy tried to destroy the Union, and that flag doesn't belong on a state building any more than the flag of any other country that sought to destroy this nation.

 

[JohnTBap]

Originally posted by EROS
Racists and Bigots who fly flags don't bother me...............at least we KNOW where they stand.

The kind of hatred which we endured on 9-11 knows no flags. The racism in many of our corporate and educational institutions knows no flags. The prejudice of the Moral Majority crowd knows no flags..................

We agree. I'm sorry that I was unclear. To clarify -

Flag flying, tattooed, shaven headed, etc. people - SCARY

Regular looks like you and me people - DOUBLE SCARY

 

[aprincessmom]

But the swastika wa sthe result of an evil regime.

Actually, that is not true. The swastika was around for hundreds and hundreds of years prior to Nazi Germany. Prior to it's current connotation of hatred, a swastika was considered to be a symbol of good luck and prosperity.

The confederate flag was developed to solely represent the ideas represented by the confederacy. One of the economic principles that the confederacy embraced was the notion that slavery of other races for personal financial gain was acceptable.

Both symbols, though they may not have started their symbolic lives solely as symbols of hatred, represent hatred to me.

 

[Beauty]

I told myself I wouldn't get involved in this but before "homework time" with my son I will say......

I am about as far from a racist as a person can get. I believe that everyone was made equal and I believe that slavery was very very wrong. But the Civil War was not fought over slavery...it was fought over States Rights...don't believe me just ask a history major.

Like it or not the Confederate Flag is part of our history.....a history I love and cherish....and as a matter of fact there were many blacks who fought for the Confederacy.....I don't fly the Rebel flag outside my home....nor do I have the American Flag there right now....but I don't mind my son having one.....I also have my home decorated in the plantation mansions of the Old South and Magnolias and Civil War Artifacts......Do I do this because I hate anyone? NO! It was something I was brought up with...its my history and my heritage....its what my great grandfather died for, it is a part of time that shouldnt' be forgotten because if we do we forget how we got to where we are today. For everyone that disagrees with the flag, you certainly have that right, just as I have the right to believe it stands for who and what I am.....a Souther person....not a red-neck, not a country bumbkin but a person whos family came here pre Civil War and have never left. I am proud to say I'm Southern and I am proud to say that the Rebel flag is part of my history and my heritage. I am also proud to say that I hate no one and I think of no one race better than the other.

 

[gina2000]

To me, it's just a piece of history.

I'm from the north, though, and have never spent any time south of DC for any extended period.

It's a shame that a piece of history may be used as a rallying cry for bigotry and racism. I've never thought of it that way.

 

[honeywolf7]

Beauty, I just had to say wow to your post. I do think that the blame for how the rebel flag is seen should lie with those who have used it as a symbol of hate, not those who have used it as a symbol of history. And you're right, many, many African Americans fought for the Confederacy (and not under coercion.)

 

[AirForceRocks]

But the Civil War was not fought over slavery...it was fought over States Rights...don't believe me just ask a history major.

You're right - and the primary right that the Confederate states were seeking to retain was the right to keep slaves.

Don't take my word for it - go read the articles of secession. Slavery is mentioned throughout as a right of the South that must be retained, even it meant destruction of the Union.

 

[betz]

Why is it the South is always classified as the Evil Slavedrivers.
Here in Connecticut our complicity towards slavery is amazing.
You wouldn't look at the "Travelers Red Umbrella" and think Slave Traders. In fact they were profiteers from benefiting from their involvement with slave trade and slave ownership.
We had slaves here before the South was the South, so to speak, enslaving Indians. In the 1800's 1 in every 4 families owned at least one slave.
We brokered and marketed goods used to maintain slaves and also goods produced by slaves. We were slave brokers too.
We extended for 20 years the law to keep slavery legal after the revolution.
Sure people think Amistad, Prudence Crandell, Harriet Beecher Stowe and the Underground Railroad when they think of Connecticut and slavery.
Not how we in Connecticut profited from slavery to become the richest state in the Union.
There are mixed feelings about the Confederate Flag, yes it is a part of our history, yes there are both negative and positive connotations that go along with it. I think it is in the manner in which it is displayed, the way in which the message is interpretred the issue here.
If it mocks or belittles that is not acceptable.
If it shows one's heratige, that is history. We all take certain pride in our history, however many ghosts are in our cloests.

 

[Grog]

Actually, that is not true. The swastika was around for hundreds and hundreds of years prior to Nazi Germany. Prior to it's current connotation of hatred, a swastika was considered to be a symbol of good luck and prosperity.

A little know fact...... It was also used by some American Indian tribes. In fact, the US Army's 45th Infantry Division (Oklahoma National Guard) had as thier symbol, a yellow swastika on a red diamond background prior to WW2. Sometime after Hitler came to power,and before the start of the war, the swastika was replaced with a yellow "Thunderbird". The original intent, in using the swastika, was that it was representative of the tribes in Oklahoma.


Back to the flag debate.....

 

[Saffron]

I think it means different things to different people.

Some fly the Confederate flag for "Southern Pride", that's all, no hidden agendas. That "Southern Pride" is not necessarily racist, red necked, or any of the other stereo typical aspects associated with the Confederate flag. The flag to them means pride in being from the South, nothing more.

To some it means hatred. Some people fly it as a symbol of their hatred for other people, other races, other ethnicities. It is a symbol of repression, superiority, etc.

Others see it as a symbol of history. Whether it was a symbol of hate, a symbol of pride or a symbol of freedom, to them it's part of the history of our country.

I'm from the North. The flag represents the South to me, and all that goes along with it, good or bad. I wouldn't display it, but that's just me.

 

[CRB#33]

The swastika was around for hundreds and hundreds of years prior to Nazi Germany. Prior to it's current connotation of hatred, a swastika was considered to be a symbol of good luck and prosperity

Well now. What a very interesting detail. I had no idea. You learn something new every day.

Kind of sheds a different light.

On a personal note, I'm kind of ashamed to say, I never gave this subject much thought. I live in the north.

The bottom line for me though is my fear and concern for the hate and bigotry that goes on in the world, not so much the inanimate symbols of it.

 

[minniepumpernickel]

Let me first say that I have lived both in the north, and the south. I have seen the rebel flag flying from homes in both regions. Why are some northerners flying the rebel flag? I just assumed that they were red neck, rascists. I am hyper sensitive to anything like that.

I was discussing this issue with a friend from a small southern town. He said that it doesn't always mean that the people are rednecks from Deliverance, well you know what I mean. It's hard to change your opinion about a symbol, if thats what you have always believed it to mean.

I wonder if it's possible to be too ultra liberal in the sense that we should accept people waving around swastikas? I know that I've been picking on Eros lately, lol! You also have to remember that speaking up may have prevented the Nazi's from getting such a firm grasp on Germany. Where does "freedom of speech" end and become some other destructive entity? Some interesting stuff to mull over.....