Completely 100% disgusted

[akk]

I am not a commercial seller of DVC vacations, but my kids are now older and in a "shoulder period" of Disney use and I have way many more points than I need. (I got caught up in the buy more bug). Is this thread saying that the only correct way to get rid of these extra points is to sell them on Disboards or sellmy points all together? I have sold weeks on eBay and I think that is my right. I have also given and sold weeks to colleagues, friends and family. I just have too many points right now but when my kids have their own kids, I probably won't have enough. I agree that commercial entities should not do this, but I don't see that there is anything wrong with selling weeks from members who just have too many points. Everytime a new property opens the sales rep talks you into buying a few more points and then before you know it, you have way too many. If they stop members from selling their weeks then they have to stop trying to sell more points. I am sure that I will get a phone call once the California and Hawaii properties go for sale. I have already been contacted many times about AKL. I am not defending the commercial entities but just presenting a different point of view.

 

[themilesfamily]

I am not a commercial seller of DVC vacations, but my kids are now older and in a "shoulder period" of Disney use and I have way many more points than I need.

I don't think anyone would say what you're doing is wrong. I think that Disney provides ample leeway for personal use.

Some may say that there is a fine line between personal use and commercial renting -- I disagree. I doubt that there are just a few transactions difference between those are getting rid of some extra points and those who have turned selling access to DVC properties into their own personal business. Commercial renters who are advertising "hundreds of satisfied customers" aren't just unloading some extra points.

Whoever brought up the Hannah Montana example made an excellent analogy. Just recently these tickets went on sale and ticket scalpers -- -- using software specifically designed for this purpose -- bought up thousands of tickets. They are reselling them for up to $3000. How does the average concertgoer have a chance against this kind of operation? I'm sure that ticket scalping started out as small potatoes, way back when -- and it's turned into a huge problem.

 

[I'mNoPrince]

I just think if your using E-bay or other ways to sell then your selling for a profit and thats against the nature of the rule even though it's not really spelled out . Are you a commercial renter if your using commerse to make that sale, who really knows .Right now there is a magic 20 ressie number within a use year.

Are you booking prime weeks just so you can sell them .or are you talking to a family member or friend thats says hey how much for you to get me this week or this many days.

And your correct someone unloading some points is one thing to be doing year after year the same weeks at maximum profit is crossing the line in my opinion only and we all know that doesn't mean anything but you did ask.

 

[themilesfamily]

Here's a clip from a news article on the Hannah Montana ticket situation:

"Part of the reason for the shortage of tickets is that sophisticated scalpers now use automated computer programs that can quickly snap up tickets online or flood ticket phone lines with numerous calls, blocking out potential fans....The situation was so bad in Missouri that Attorney General Jay Nixon announced on Thursday that he was filing lawsuits against three ticket brokers for scalping tickets above face value, a violation of city ordinances and state consumer-protection laws." Gil Kaufman -- MTV News

 

[kimberh]

Commercial renters usually charge far more than the average price for points. For example during 2006 rental prices generally run about $10-$11/point. Commercial renters usually charge $12/point or more.

How did you come up with this price break down for Commercial Renting? We buy our contracts at different prices, if purchased in different years. I have more money in my 2006 contracts than someone that purchased in 1995. If you wait 3 years to purchase, your contracts will be more than mine, with the tract record DVC has set.

 

[I'mNoPrince]

How did you come up with this price break down for Commercial Renting? We buy our contracts at different prices, if purchased in different years. I have more money in my 2006 contracts than someone that purchased in 1995. If you wait 3 years to purchase, your contracts will be more than mine, with the tract record DVC has set.

ITA if you want to charge your family $2 or $200 per point then thats fine. I don't think it's the amount your getting it's the how your going about it that matters.

You could even argue the point that you paid $110 per point + maint.fees and only kept it that one year.

Here on the DIS and a few other places is where they keep that $10-$12 per point value but it no way reflexs the true value. I'm glad because next year I will be points poor and out of Borrowing so I will need to pick up a transfer . hopefully I can help someone like AKK out by taking some of their points off their hands. I will even be more happy if I can get them at the $10-$12 points range.

I think that is the Spirit of the rules set by Disney on dumping your points. Or like I stated before you know someone that needs to go and your can get them a better deal then CRO could all while introducing them to DVC to help it grow.

 

[Deb & Bill]

I just think if your using E-bay or other ways to sell then your selling for a profit and thats against the nature of the rule even though it's not really spelled out . Are you a commercial renter if your using commerse to make that sale, who really knows .Right now there is a magic 20 ressie number within a use year.

Are you booking prime weeks just so you can sell them .or are you talking to a family member or friend thats says hey how much for you to get me this week or this many days.

And your correct someone unloading some points is one thing to be doing year after year the same weeks at maximum profit is crossing the line in my opinion only and we all know that doesn't mean anything but you did ask.

I'm with you on this one, Terry. Offering your points to a friend, relative or co-worker is one thing. Posting prime weeks on any website is another.

 

[Bopsmom]

I'm with you on this one, Terry. Offering your points to a friend, relative or co-worker is one thing. Posting prime weeks on any website is another.

I was the one posting about slimey ticket scalpers. Another poster replied regarding Hannah Montanna. BTW, we got blown off the website after waiting "in line" like thousands of others. It stinks, but I refuse to pay a scalper. Our "scalper" even made the news about how proud he was to have paid 20+ street people to wait in line and had others on the computer-like he was doing mankind a favor.

I consider it "scalping" when someone consistently makes reservations at prime spots, at prime times that most likely were booked at 11 months out, just to sell on ebay or other sites . Not just having some extra points to "share" on an odd year. This member is scalping plain and simple. There are years of feedback saying what wonderful trips people had and advertisment of other "prime" weeks for sale. It sounds like a business to me. (looks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....)
Why can't DVC do something about this? It is plainly against the contract. Wouldn't DVC do something about breaking the contract other ways?

I guess I am upset because I was so happy to have sent in my closing papers and check last Saturday.(there should be happy dance smiley here) Now I guess I will have to deal with/compete with "ressie scalpers" if I want to spend Christmas week at BWV(our home resort) during Christmas.
It kinda' takes the shine off DVC.
Maybe we should have bought off ebay instead.

 

[themilesfamily]

I guess I am upset because I was so happy to have sent in my closing paper and check last Saturday.(there should be happy dance smiley here)

Bopsmom -- CONGRATS on your DVC investment!! I think that's great and I'll do the happy dance for you... Despite this commercial renting issue, our family still plans to buy into DVC, as well. I do have faith in Disney that they will stay on top of this.

I'm sure you and your family will have so many great vacations together!!!! Enjoy.

 

[Bopsmom]

Bopsmom -- CONGRATS on your DVC investment!! I think that's great and I'll do the happy dance for you... Despite this commercial renting issue, our family still plans to buy into DVC, as well. I do have faith in Disney that they will stay on top of this.

I'm sure you and your family will have so many great vacations together!!!! Enjoy.

Thank you so much.MilesFamily I hope you're right.
One thing you do get when you buy DVC-outright.
A bunch of really nice "neighbors!".
Priceless!
I hope ya'll get your place real soon. Where are you buying?

 

[kimberh]

Commercial renters usually charge far more than the average price for points. For example during 2006 rental prices generally run about $10-$11/point. Commercial renters usually charge $12/point or more.

To OP, I asked this yesterday, but how did you come to this determination of price for Commercial Renting? Do you work for Disney and they have now come to a price for Commercial Renting?

I don't get this point. You state that there's alternatives in the 10-11 dollar range. Renters can choose among the offerings. Are you disgusted about taking availability from other owners or about commercial renters not dumping their points on the open market and forcing prices down for all renters?

Asked and Ignored...

How did you come up with this price break down for Commercial Renting? We buy our contracts at different prices, if purchased in different years. I have more money in my 2006 contracts than someone that purchased in 1995. If you wait 3 years to purchase, your contracts will be more than mine, with the tract record DVC has set.

Are you looking for a cheap rental and upset that you aren't finding one? If you are so upset over renting, then buy and don't be part of the ones that rent.

 

[Deb & Bill]

...Are you looking for a cheap rental and upset that you aren't finding one? If you are so upset over renting, then buy and don't be part of the ones that rent.

I think you missed the fact that the OP is researching DVC to become a member in the near future. Maybe she saw one of your rentals available on Redweek or something?

 

[kimberh]

Yesterday I was on another board that has a rent/trade section on their forums. That board was FILLED with posters who appeared to me to be selling DVC points for commercial purposes (offering thousands of points for sale, 11-month bookings at five or more resorts, bragging about how many satisfied customers they've had over the years.) This is in total violation of DVC rules.

What bothered me even more was that there were NUMEROUS confirmed reservations that were being resold at exorbitant prices for Christmas and New Year's -


p.s. I'm not a DVC member yet, but we are talking about buying in the next few years, so I've been researching.

If you wait 3 years to purchase, your contracts will be more than mine, with the tract record DVC has set.

I think you missed the fact that the OP is researching DVC to become a member in the near future. Maybe she saw one of your rentals available on Redweek or something?

No, I didn't miss anything, I read every word! Sounds like a disguntled renter to me. She didn't say a word about Redweek, mentioned other boards. Even you can't deny that the rental rate has went up this year. I would really like to know where she came up with her price break down for Commercial Renting... with her remarks, I really don't think that is to much to ask. When does a disgruntled renter get to come on the dis and gripe about the prices people charge for their villas. Now, the rest is up for discussion. If the price is cheaper than Disney, they are still saving money. If she wants to pay the price for a Moderate or Value, then she needs to stay in a Mod or Value.

Deb, I don't have anything on Redweek, check again.

 

[DVC4All]

Here's a prime example from what looks like it could be a DIS member 5 all running in peak times.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Disney-Beach-Cl...oryZ3257QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Only 3 are for prime time.

It concerns me for two reasons: 1) these commercial renters are knowingly disobeying their contract with Disney and 2) putting their rentees in jeapordy of losing their reservations.

So you are concerned with people who disobey their contract with Disney
and
You are concerned with their renters being put in jeapordy

Sounds like a a crusade!

I came across this info:...Disney Vacation Club prohibits the rental of points for commercial purposes. When they discover reservations made by commercial renters, they cancel them without notice.

Do you know of any instances of Disney cancelling reservations?
Where do you get your information?

You can usually identify commercial renters as they use sites such as E-Bay with fancy text and photos..

Is this a new way to identify commercial renters?
Uh oh, they are on eBay, they must be commercial renters!

There is another one, see the fancy text!

Commercial renters usually charge far more than the average price for points. For example during 2006 rental prices generally run about $10-$11/point. Commercial renters usually charge $12/point or more.

Look at this guy, he's charging $12 per point!
Yea, he's definately a commercial renter!
Last week he was charging $11, but clearly he's crossed a line!

The line appears to be what you feel points should be rented for.

C'mon DVC...clarify the language in the contract once and for all...in one place it says we can rent, in another it says that we cannot make a profit...make it clear.

I believe it does not say anywhere that we cannot make a profit and I challenge you to produce that. There is a difference between making a profit and commercail renting. DVC has been very careful not to define commercial renting and I beileve has made the "Bright Line Test" to identify possible commercial renters.

That works out to $22.71 per point for starting bid price, and $24.67 per point for 'buy-it-now' price.

Which one of the four listings are you referring to?
Did you calculate the per point price for all four?
If you did, is this the average or the highest?
Is it important to you how much per point someone charges?
Is that really a big issue for you?

I just pulled that one because it had a few listed at the same time. looking at the feed back it seems it's been since he started the E-Bay account in 05 and does this each ear several Thank you's for a wonderful Vacation but who really knows.

I see a total of 31 feedback of which 20 are as a seller of which I count 12-14 for rooms; all since Jan '05. According to the "Bright Line Test" a commercial renter might be someone who rents to 20 people in a 12 month period. Hey John, you like to do math. Does 14 reservations over a period of 2 years and 10 months come out to be 20 or more reservations in a 12 month period? I'm no mathematician, but I don't think it does.

Not if they are making a business out of it. They may have multiple people making the phone calls for them to get all the prime reservations. Who knows, they might even have an insider working at MS making the reservations for a cut. Now that would be despicable.

Alas, the conspiracy theory!
So you think there may be a mole in Member Services...Do you think DVC is aware of this possibility and that at this very moment we are under surveillance by counter-intelligent people?

I don't get this point. You state that there's alternatives in the 10-11 dollar range. Renters can choose among the offerings. Are you disgusted about taking availability from other owners or about commercial renters not dumping their points on the open market and forcing prices down for all renters?

It seems to be so!

In other words - honest DVC'ers who rent out points for a reasonable cost may actually help DVC by giving people a wonderful DVC experience, which may eventually result in a new member. Thats the ultimate word-of-mouth marketing.

So only honest DVCers who rent out points for a reasonable cost?
Not honest DVCers who rent for a higher than reasonable cost?
Not honest DVCers who rent for a lower than reasonable cost?
Not dis-honest DVCers that rent for a reasonable cost?
Not dis-honest DVCers who rent for a higher than a reasonable cost?
Not dis-honest DVCers who rent for lower than a reasonavble cost?

The problem is that you have these people on eBay and the like doing what they are doing for obvious profit. Maybe DVC should start there - no rentals via auction sites, etc.

Hey, how about no advertising at all!
Even better, let's identify these dis-honest DVCers who rent at unreasonable prices, and make them wear a "Bad Mickey" on their chest so we all know who they are.

This is why we cant get the accomodations we want during the dates we want. Disney has to find a way to stop this.

Mama, you can't get the accomodations you want for one of two reasons.
Either you don't plan far enough ahead or you are trying to book at the 7 month window where you don't own.

I just think if your using E-bay or other ways to sell then your selling for a profit and thats against the nature of the rule even though it's not really spelled out.

So using "eBay" OR "other ways" to sell means you are selling for a profit? I don't remember learning this in Economics or Marketing. Please tell me where I can find this so I can forward this information to our college professors; no wonder we're falling behind in education in this country!

Regarding the "nature" of the rule, please explain how even though it's not really spelled out, you are able to tell the "nature" of the rule.
Also, what does "nature of the rule" mean?
And, what rule are you talking about?

I'm with you on this one, Terry. Offering your points to a friend, relative or co-worker is one thing. Posting prime weeks on any website is another.

If someone owns, say, 2000 points, don't they have a right to use 180 of those points for prime weeks and then advertise them to rent them?
Wouldn't they have at least as much right as someone who owns 180 points and uses all their points for a prime week every year?

 

[akk]

There are several issues which are being discussed here which I don't understand.
1. First, I have not had a problem booking a holiday period in an 11 month window. The only time I have had a problem is when trying to book a Villa which is in very limited supply. This can usually be done on a daily booking, 11 months in advance. 2 BR are almost never a problem. Studios are an occasional problem
2. Booking at SSR is almost never a problem, even up to 7 months in advance. This tells me something about SSR. Disney expanded and overbuilt its original plans for SSR. This has diluted the value of SSR and many SSR members try to book at other more desireable resorts and are unable to because a large percentage of them are trying to. This brings up two issues. One is that Disney deceived us and way overbuilt SSR. The original plans looked like all of SSR was water front and easy walking to Downtown Disney. They have expanded so much that it takes a marathoner to walk to downtown Disney and many units have a great view of the road. The second is SSR has no advantages and is less desireable than other resorts. This affects not only SSR members, but other resort members because SSR members are always trying to book at another resort. This means that Disney must do something to make SSR more desireable, such as maybe put a mini water park at SSR which only those staying at SSR can use, like the one at the Nikelodeon Hotel, or Reunion. This will significantly increase the use of SSR and decrease the outflow of points from SSR to other resorts.
3. What do people consider making a profit commercially? At over $100 per point and $5 per point in maintenance fees per year, how much are you really making in selling your points? Is 10% return on investment price gouging? I don't think so. Then 10% of $105/pt is $10.50 per point plus $5 per point is $15.50 per point. So not counting the costs of advertising, the headaches of renting, the numerous questions, the headaches from buyers, I don't think tha a commercial renter would think it a commercial enterprise to rent for $15.50 per point or probably $18 per point because that is only 10% return on investment with alot of work. Unless you are dealing with thousands and thousands of points, this is not a money making proposition. The DOW is up 13.3% year to date.
4. I think that $9-$10 per point is way too low and decreases the value of purchasing at DVC. DVC has the right of first refusal for sales of DVC points and at the $9-10 per point price should buy these points up because it makes purchasing them less desireable. Why should I buy points at $105 per point or higher, pay $5 per point per year maintenance or higher when I can come on Disboards and buy them for $9 per point?

The point of all this is that I got caught in the "buy more" bug and have way too many points for now as my children do not want to go to Disney 3x per year anymore and have expanded their tastes in vacations (and no longer eat just chicken fingers and french fries) and the the trading of Disney and the other vacations are either not as easy as DVC claims or not a good value. Until I have grandchildren, I will have more points than I need. I don't want to sell the points, but wish that their was an easier, and somewhat profitable (but obviously not price gouging and commercializing) way to get rid of my extra points for now. I think $9-$10 per point is selling short.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Mama, you can't get the accomodations you want for one of two reasons.
Either you don't plan far enough ahead or you are trying to book at the 7 month window where you don't own.

sorry but that just a completely uninformed statement
there have plenty of examples over the past, too numerous to even list, where members have called at the earliest possible time only to be without a ressie.

you are completely 100% underestimating commerical renters
either you are one or you just dont truly understand the impact

 

[sjdisneywedding]

So using "eBay" OR "other ways" to sell means you are selling for a profit? I don't remember learning this in Economics or Marketing. Please tell me where I can find this so I can forward this information to our college professors; no wonder we're falling behind in education in this country!

lets get real here, EBAY is THE leading vehicle to rent points for a profit. Most people are not selling their points on ebay to LOSE money. doesnt mean everyone is or everyone will make a profit, but thats the clear intent

 

[sjdisneywedding]

If someone owns, say, 2000 points, don't they have a right to use 180 of those points for prime weeks and then advertise them to rent them?
Wouldn't they have at least as much right as someone who owns 180 points and uses all their points for a prime week every year?

of course they do! thats not commercial renting, the issue is when they use the majority of those 2000 points to rent out several weeks for profit.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Only 3 are for prime time.

UMMM I would ask what the heck are you looking?? they all are either during Thanksgiving week. Christmas week, or new years week. with only one not directly inculding the holiday day itself

So you are concerned with people who disobey their contract with Disney
and
You are concerned with their renters being put in jeapordy

Sounds like a a crusade!


?

doesnt sound like a crusade at all, sounds like someone I want to own my piece of the pie with.

What fellow owner would not want to be concerned with people disobeying their contract.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I see a total of 31 feedback of which 20 are as a seller of which I count 12-14 for rooms; all since Jan '05. According to the "Bright Line Test" a commercial renter might be someone who rents to 20 people in a 12 month period. Hey John, you like to do math. Does 14 reservations over a period of 2 years and 10 months come out to be 20 or more reservations in a 12 month period? I'm no mathematician, but I don't think it does.
?

lol this is too much. you either must have been really tired or really fired up that someone is trying to bring down commercail renting.

SOOOO they had 14 ressies over a 2 year period on EBAY. So I guess there is no other means whatsoever to rent dvc points?

So I guess because I have never rented on EBAY that I have never rented period?

14 ressies on EBAY doesnt mean 14 ressies.

Also, what about their own persoanl ressies with points that they must have used since they are not commerical renters. They must be going on their own vacations, right? I mean for 14 ressies they must have alot of points. I wonder why they would own that many points and not take their own vacation

the best part of the whole deal, it that this seller is currently selling 230 OKW points and 250 SSR points. Maybe all these posts on Ebay are legit because they just cant use the points anymore, or the commercial renting crackdown has him bailing out