Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[mkatsy]

I agree they are a big target if we are talking about the context of those who are renting to levels that clearly make them in it for commercial purposes.

But to be fair, there are times when all rooms are hard, including PV.

To address that, DVC may need to do more in terms of point charts…and then again, I’m not sure what they can do to ever make demand during early December match supply, of all types and views of studios.

Right now there are several rooms that are waitlisted beyond the booking window: Poly Tower 2 BD Penthouse, BLT 2 BD resort view, OKW grand villa, BWV Deluxe Studio Resort view & 2 BD lock off, Aulani grand villa, everything Kilimanjaro club & value

 

[Sandisw]

The only thing that could do is raise the points- the actual holiday week is easier to book than the beginning of the month due to a huge jump in points . I thought they had raised early December about five years ago?

They did…and it’s still difficult to book.

 

[Mouseforward]

Right now there are several rooms that are waitlisted beyond the booking window: Poly Tower 2 BD Penthouse, BLT 2 BD resort view, OKW grand villa, BWV Deluxe Studio Resort view & 2 BD lock off, Aulani grand villa, everything Kilimanjaro club & value

That’s good availability considering it’s Fourth of July weekend

 

[Sandisw]

Right now there are several rooms that are waitlisted beyond the booking window: Poly Tower 2 BD Penthouse, BLT 2 BD resort view, OKW grand villa, BWV Deluxe Studio Resort view & 2 BD lock off, Aulani grand villa, everything Kilimanjaro club & value

I don’t know what you mean? But if you mean there are lots of things that book up at 11 months, then that will always happen depending on demand.

It’s impossible for everyone who wants to potentially go at high demand times to get exactly what they want, even booking right at 11 months.

DVC can only do so much with point charts to balance things…

 

[Mouseforward]

They did…and it’s still difficult to book.

That’s why I grabbed a week 49 favorite week at RIV

I can see another modification coming to December

 

[mkatsy]

I don’t know what you mean?

The discussion was that studios are the only room type affected by walking &/or renting. Everything else is not a problem. Then you mentioned that many more room types than just studios can be difficult to book. This is the availability tonight, it isn’t just studios, many other room types are unavailable to book.

 

[Sandisw]

That’s why I grabbed a week 49 favorite week at RIV

I can see another modification coming to December

Possibly and it definitely should happen for certain categories, IMO

There just aren’t enough of the CL rooms at AKV to ever make getting them easier…10 rooms max is still 10 rooms max.

For some of the others? Getting RV and PV to be closer would work for someplace like BWV…but my guess is that some owners would not be happy.

I’d be okay at RIV for them to make the differences better because we do RV only to save points but actually love PV better…

 

[Sandisw]

The discussion was that studios are the only room type affected by walking &/or renting. Everything else is not a problem. Then you mentioned that many more room types than just studios can be difficult to book.

Got it…I should have said especially studios, not that they are the only ones with demand issues.

But, I do think studios are ones that owners, even if they are not renting out of bounds, are the ones most renters want vs the larger units.

 

[Mouseforward]

I’d be okay at RIV for them to make the differences better because we do RV only to save points but actually love PV better…

It is such a large gap that a PV 1br and a RV 2br are less than 25 points apart 1st week in Dec. I wish RIV would have made the bottom floors RV and the top floors PV, I would not want a low floor PV by the pools for the extra points.

 

[TCRAIG]

The only thing that could do is raise the points- the actual holiday week is easier to book than the beginning of the month due to a huge jump in points . I thought they had raised early December about five years ago?

They did - points for the first 2 weeks were as cheap as Sept - Oct was also cheaper. The increase of these 2 times was partially offset by adding more ‘seasons’ and also by lowering the points charts for May (IIRC).

 

[Cyberc1978]

DVC was advertised as an owners club for personal use. First come, first served, no commercial renting allowed. DVC actually is a renters club, where it's easier to get a significant portions of the rooms on the rental market than as an owner. First come, first served to those with the points, bots, and time to walk it at the start of their use year all the way until reservation time. This product is nothing like it's presented, and part of that is natural marketing ploys, and part of that is because there is a malignant tumor within the product that DVC has willfully let grow and take over the whole body.

I've checked some of the spec rentals available and i'm not entirely convinced that bots are in play. If bots were in play I would expect to see a lot more 7 nights rentals at AKV and BWV. I do see a lot of those at BWV for (removed month) but June is or were at least fairly wide open and that could be the reason for it.

If I had a bot running, then I guess I would be able to spit out BWV RV and AKV value for breakfast and thats not what we are seeing. However that does not mean that the LLC's are not setting up WL's for a lot of nights, I assume they are.

 

[Sandisw]

I've checked some of the spec rentals available and i'm not entirely convinced that bots are in play. If bots were in play I would expect to see a lot more 7 nights rentals at AKV and BWV. I do see a lot of those at BWV for (removed month) but June is or were at least fairly wide open and that could be the reason for it.

If I had a bot running, then I guess I would be able to spit out BWV RV and AKV value for breakfast and thats not what we are seeing. However that does not mean that the LLC's are not setting up WL's for a lot of nights, I assume they are.

This is why this topic has so many layers.

Regardless of who is booking, Disney IT should have programs in place that prevent bots.

While owners who have gotten into this as a business may be the ones more likely to be using them, even owners booking for themselves should not be able too.

It really comes down to knowing exactly what actions DVC decides count as a violation.

Obviously, DVC hasn’t committed to anything specific except the 2011 policy, whether in writing or practice.

And the only interpretation and enforcement we have ever gotten from DVC surrounding that is cancel above 20, leave the first 20 alone…

DVC could certainly change the way they view that policy but all we have to go on right now is what they have done or said in the past.

DVC having a lot of power to define things can work both ways..,it may give them the ability to make very strict rules but it also gives them the ability to keep the threshold high.

If actions such as spec renting, is something one believes should be considered out of bounds, and DVC never makes it out of bounds, because they they decide it’s not against the contract/law, then it’s going to remain a frustrating situation for those who want those things stopped.

I will always evaluate things based on whatever DVC actually provides us as to what constitutes commercial.

If DVC hasn’t identified a specific action as part of their definition, as I said, whether written or through enforcement, then I can’t fault owners for continuing to do what they are doing when it comes to using their membership for themselves and others, including renters.

The upcoming meetings will be interesting!!

ETA: to be fair, the RIV and beyond owners have some examples of what DVC could use so I think those owners at least have an idea of what could happen.

What I find interesting is that they didn’t add those examples to the updated T and C…wonder why?

 

[Mouseforward]

see a lot more 7 nights rentals at AKV and BWV

Are people renting Spec rentals for 7 nights? - I have many friends who rent vs owning DVC and when they want a week they do the point rental 11 month out traditional method. Similar to what is done on the forum rental board. It is much cheaper at 18-20 a point.

I think the spec rentals focus on the 1-3 night prime days "last min trip market" that is less price sensitive.

 

[VGCgroupie]

Are people renting Spec rentals for 7 nights? - I have many friends who rent vs owning DVC and when they want a week they do the point rental 11 month out traditional method. Similar to what is done on the forum rental board. It is much cheaper at 18-20 a point.

I think the spec rentals focus on the 1-3 night prime days "last min trip market" that is less price sensitive.

That was my thought. Spec rentals are generally 1 day (ca properties) to 4 days. Occasionally 5 days but not nearly as many.

 

[xdan0920]

That was my thought. Spec rentals are generally 1 day (ca properties) to 4 days. Occasionally 5 days but not nearly as many.

Doesn’t fit the narrative.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Are people renting Spec rentals for 7 nights? - I have many friends who rent vs owning DVC and when they want a week they do the point rental 11 month out traditional method. Similar to what is done on the forum rental board. It is much cheaper at 18-20 a point.

I think the spec rentals focus on the 1-3 night prime days "last min trip market" that is less price sensitive.

If I were to spec rent I would book 7 nights Saturday - Saturday. That way I had more flexibility, if the renter only wanted 5 or 6 nights.

 

[Sandisw]

Are people renting Spec rentals for 7 nights? - I have many friends who rent vs owning DVC and when they want a week they do the point rental 11 month out traditional method. Similar to what is done on the forum rental board. It is much cheaper at 18-20 a point.

I think the spec rentals focus on the 1-3 night prime days "last min trip market" that is less price sensitive.

I definitely see a lot more of 1 to 3 nights out there being offered when I have looked around…though, to be fair, I don’t spend a lot of time on it.

It seems like they could just use similar language that is used for transfer points and commercial purposes. Something like this:

We know how important it is to our members to have flexibility in using their membership. We know things happen that may not always be known from the start.

However, DVC reserves the right to fail to confirm guest name changes if they believe they are being done for commercial purposes.

Seems easy to monitor and flag but also allow for situations where an owner has legitimate reasons to change names, including for the occasional rental.

 

[xdan0920]

I definitely see a lot more of 1 to 3 nights out there being offered when I have looked around…though, to be fair, I don’t spend a lot of time on it.

It seems like they could just use similar language that is used for transfer points and commercial purposes. Something like this:

We know how important it is to our members to have flexibility in using their membership. We know things happen that may not always be known from the start.

However, DVC reserves the right to fail to confirm guest name changes if they believe they are being done for commercial purposes.

Seems easy to monitor and flag but also allow for situations where an owner has legitimate reasons to change names, including for the occasional rental.

Except you can’t, according to the rules in place TODAY, change names to a rental. You need to inform DVC at the time of booking. Not that it matters.

 

[Sandisw]

Except you can’t, according to the rules in place TODAY, change names to a rental. You need to inform DVC at the time of booking. Not that it matters.

There is no such rule that you can’t change the name on a prebooked reservation to someone else…renter or guest..

If you book for yourself and then have to rent that reservation, you simply call and advise them at that time when you change it to a new name that it has become a rental, and DVC currently counts that as acceptable notification.

But see, this is just another example of how certain things in the contract can be viewed with two different interpretations and support both sides.

In the end, all that matters is how DVC sees it and right now DVCs own actions support that they do not consider changing names on reservations, regardless of who the new guest is, as against the rules.

If they change their mind, and want it to be an actual rule, they will let owners know.

 

[Tatebeck]

There is no such rule that you can’t change the name on a prebooked reservation to someone else…renter or guest..

If you book for yourself and then have to rent that reservation, you simply call and advise them at that time when you change it to a new name that it has become a rental, and DVC currently counts that as acceptable notification.

But see, this is just another example of how certain things in the contract can be viewed with two different interpretations and support both sides.

In the end, all that matters is how DVC sees it and right now DVCs own actions support that they do not consider changing names on reservations, regardless of who the new guest is, as against the rules.

If they change their mind, and want it to be an actual rule, they will let owners know.

Yes, the system as currently implemented does let you change secondary guests yourself online and even the lead/primary guest if you contact member services.

And while you are correct that there is nothing in the rules that says that you can't change the names on a prebooked reservation, there is also nothing in the rules that says that you are allowed to either. (Note: Other than a small section I found in the areas dedicated to favorite weeks, because they book those for you and you do not get to choose the guests at the time the reservation is made).

So they technically could stop allowing you to modify guests on a reservation online at any time (Though IMO they most likely won't ever take that off the online system because there would be a backlash after having it in the booking system for so long and a major increase in labor for people contacting MS for any changes)

But (as I have said before) there are areas of the rules that specifically state that a reservation being used as a rental must be communicated to DVC at the time the reservation is made. Not once you find a renter for it, not once you are ready to modify it, etc. Right when you make the reservation. If you do not follow that rule, they do not have to allow you to make the changes for a rental, even if they have in the past.

There are also clauses that say DVCs approval of guest(s) using the room instead of the member(s) is not required once the reservation is made in the guest's name. Which means that they may decide that approval may be required if you are trying to change the lead guest on a reservation from the member to a different guest. So they could deny lead guest changes for possible rentals in that way as well if they wished.

All this to say that basically:
How the online system currently works or what they currently allow you to do via member services do not 100% mirror the actual rules for a variety of reasons. They may be lenient now/in the past, but they can also be more strict in some ways if they wanted to right now (or obviously create new rules and add them as well)

EX. The rules had always said that a member was allowed 1 transfer only. They were lenient and allowed members to do more than one transfer if it was between contracts that the same person was an owner on. Until they weren't lenient anymore and decided to enforce the letter of the rules (as well as thankfully adjusting the banking/borrowing the transfer rules to add some flexibility for members using their points and not stripping and flipping contracts)