Commerical Use Policy Update - New Thread!

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

The rules allow the members to rent, why shouldn’t we be allowed to rent any type of room for any date?

Because the POS makes clear that points are for personal use, not commercial use. Spec rentals designed to maximize profit is clearly driven by a commercial purpose, reduce other members’ ability to use their points and Disney should stop it to protect their members— especially now that they have tools to identify the members who are routinely attaching randos names to existing reservations with high profit margins.

I don’t hate anybody for taking advantage of Disney’s unwillingness to protect small contract owners, but I do think rules (and morality) should prohibit behavior that will break the system if it’s used wide scale. If everyone thought how you did, it would be nearly impossible for owners to use their DVC membership during September and December, that is an unacceptable outcome for me, but we aren’t quite there yet…just continuing down the path towards it.

 

[TCRAIG]

Because the POS makes clear that points are for personal use, not commercial use. Spec rentals designed to maximize profit is clearly driven by a commercial purpose, reduce other members’ ability to use their points and Disney should stop it to protect their members— especially now that they have tools to identify the members who are routinely attaching randos names to existing reservations with high profit margins.

I don’t hate anybody for taking advantage of Disney’s unwillingness to protect small contract owners, but I do think rules (and morality) should prohibit behavior that will break the system if it’s used wide scale. If everyone thought how you did, it would be nearly impossible for owners to use their DVC membership during September and December, that is an unacceptable outcome for me, but we aren’t quite there yet…just continuing down the path towards it.

I don’t necessarily agree - if a member is lucky enough to book (for example) New Years Eve at 11 months out at BLT Theme Park view studio and then turn around and offer that 1 night booking for rent - In my opinion- that should Not automatically put them in the commercial renter category.

 

[Mouseforward]

I don’t necessarily agree - if a member is lucky enough to book (for example) New Years Eve at 11 months out at BLT Theme Park view studio and then turn around and offer that 1 night booking for rent - In my opinion- that should Not automatically put them in the commercial renter category.

As long as you are renting less than your MF your not making a profit. But is scalping ever ethical ? Picking a Friday / Sat so it rents faster, but charging the same per point is ok to me. I do not agree with charging $35 / point.

 

[Cyberc1978]

Because the POS makes clear that points are for personal use, not commercial use. Spec rentals designed to maximize profit is clearly driven by a commercial purpose, reduce other members’ ability to use their points and Disney should stop it to protect their members— especially now that they have tools to identify the members who are routinely attaching randos names to existing reservations with high profit margins.

I don’t hate anybody for taking advantage of Disney’s unwillingness to protect small contract owners, but I do think rules (and morality) should prohibit behavior that will break the system if it’s used wide scale. If everyone thought how you did, it would be nearly impossible for owners to use their DVC membership during September and December, that is an unacceptable outcome for me, but we aren’t quite there yet…just continuing down the path towards it.

The POS allows us to rent. Personal use includes the ability to rent. <— that a fact

Commercial use is not allowed <— another fact.

Disney don’t care if I spec rent my reservations or not. We have heard that in the future they might include not renting for more than your annual dues. If that means I rent during December that’s fine too.

Let’s agree that In your opinion spec renting is for commercial purposes. For the member booking 11 months out and later finding the need to rent because of life changing circumstances might see that differently. Could he have cancelled instead? Sure he could, but maybe he knows his 1st week of December could yield a better price to help cover his medical bills.

Small points owner will have and always have had the option to book a room at their home resort. However they might not have the choice of what room and view, that would mean they most likely won’t get the number of nights they hoped for, but that’s the risk of buying a small contract. Small point owners are also at risk when Disney change the point charts - they could again end up with less nights than planned.

Days back we heard about the 12 points contracts at BWV being sold. If a new owner bought that then they could only book a studio SV, sometime they would not even be able to do that - Should that owner be protected too against point chart changes or would it just be too bad? Because either Disney protect the small points owner or they don’t.

 

[Cyberc1978]

As long as you are renting less than your MF your not making a profit. But is scalping ever ethical ? Picking a Friday / Sat so it rents faster, but charging the same per point is ok to me. I do not agree with charging $35 / point.

But does it matter if you charge $15, $20, $25, $30 or $35 per point? In the eyes of Disney it doesn’t matter, otherwise they would have included some language stipulating how much or little you can charge - so why does it matter to you?

If you rent you rent, a rental is a rental regardless of how much you charge.

IMO it does not make you a commercial renter just because you spec rent or rent at higher rates. Some would say it made you smart.

But in the future you could be seen as a commercial renter if you frequently and regularly rented some or all of your points.

For the record I’m not condoning the LLC’s that rent thousands and thousands of points. Everything within reason. 50% of your points would IMO be within reason, and LLC’s should not be allowed to rent at all given they already are a business.
Yes I know if everyone rented 50% it would become a problem - luckily not everyone does.

 

[HyperspaceMountainPilot]

Disney don’t care if I spec rent my reservations or not.

So far you appear to be correct, I am hoping the arrival of that box means one day you will be wrong, but for now, Disney is happy to let some members rent for max profit.

Let’s agree that In your opinion spec renting is for commercial purposes. For the member booking 11 months out and later finding the need to rent because of life changing circumstances might see that differently. Could he have cancelled instead? Sure he could, but maybe he knows his 1st week of December could yield a better price to help cover his medical bills.

This is a false equivalence and not spec renting. Once again, (almost) nobody is objecting to occasionally renting a booked reservation, even at a prime time, because something comes up and you can’t take the vacation — but if you just can’t travel to your studio which you booked every other weekend of September every single year, it’s not not personal use.

Small points owner will have and always have had the option to book a room at their home resort. However they might not have the choice of what room and view, that would mean they most likely won’t get the number of nights they hoped for, but that’s the risk of buying a small contract. Small point owners are also at risk when Disney change the point charts - they could again end up with less nights than planned.

I read this as trying to rationalize a selfish behavior because there are other hypothetical things that might also impact members’ ability to use the program.

I don’t think it’s productive for us to argue about whether or not it’s moral to pull rooms out of inventory to maximize your personal profit. I’m quite certain it’s not what Disney intended in setting up the system, and the kind of thing that exemplifies commercial use, but I agree with you they have seemed perfectly fine with it up until now.

 

[Mouseforward]

I don’t think it’s productive for us to argue about whether or not it’s moral to pull rooms out of inventory to maximize your personal profit

But does it matter if you charge $15, $20, $25, $30 or $35 per point? In the eyes of Disney it doesn’t matter, otherwise they would have included some language stipulating how much or little you can charge - so why does it matter to you?

Agree, permitted by WDW or at least not enforced is not the same as morally correct. I also don't think it's my place to enforce morals or regulate what WDW wants.

But we in DVC are in an ecosystem and what I do does affect others, so I chose to never rent over $20 a point and only rent when necessary. I want the option to rent stray points and canceled reservations because they have both happened to me, so I don't want to abuse that and lose that privilege. We have many on this forum with 1k or more points where it is not a question of if but when that they will have issues that they would benefit from renting occasionally and infrequently.

I feel that @18-20 a point I am made whole and I am not looking to make a profit, I like many of us have a career that earns enough that I don't see any value in renting points for profit. I can work one or two more billable hours and make more than a rental.

 

[Mouseforward]

Days back we heard about the 12 points contracts at BWV being sold. If a new owner bought that then they could only book a studio SV, sometime they would not even be able to do that

I purchased one of those, I even posted it in the ROFR thread to laugh at myself and allow the deal hunters to laugh at the rate I paid for the points. I have a weird sense of humor

I had 100 points and that was about 7-8 points shy of my week if I did not get a SV boardwalk. Now I don't have to care. I am pretty sure the others who snapped them up ( they all went in 2 days) had similar reasons - no point in paying a little less for a rare 25 point resale and paying MF on 10 -12 stray points for 16 years that I don't need.

 

[TCRAIG]

As long as you are renting less than your MF your not making a profit. But is scalping ever ethical ? Picking a Friday / Sat so it rents faster, but charging the same per point is ok to me. I do not agree with charging $35 / point.

Less than the MF for what…the points used? points in the contract? All the points in that UY? I personally don’t think charging $35. per point for a New Years Eve TPV BLT room would be unethical…hotels do it all the time!

 

[Judique]

Disney don’t care if I spec rent my reservations or not.

**************************Answers Posted by @HyperspaceMountainPilot ****************************************So far you appear to be correct, I am hoping the arrival of that box means one day you will be wrong, but for now, Disney is happy to let some members rent for max profit.

Let’s agree that In your opinion spec renting is for commercial purposes. For the member booking 11 months out and later finding the need to rent because of life changing circumstances might see that differently. Could he have cancelled instead? Sure he could, but maybe he knows his 1st week of December could yield a better price to help cover his medical bills.

This is a false equivalence and not spec renting. Once again, (almost) nobody is objecting to occasionally renting a booked reservation, even at a prime time, because something comes up and you can’t take the vacation — but if you just can’t travel to your studio which you booked every other weekend of September every single year, it’s not not personal use.

Small points owner will have and always have had the option to book a room at their home resort. However they might not have the choice of what room and view, that would mean they most likely won’t get the number of nights they hoped for, but that’s the risk of buying a small contract. Small point owners are also at risk when Disney change the point charts - they could again end up with less nights than planned.

I read this as trying to rationalize a selfish behavior because there are other hypothetical things that might also impact members’ ability to use the program.

I don’t think it’s productive for us to argue about whether or not it’s moral to pull rooms out of inventory to maximize your personal profit. I’m quite certain it’s not what Disney intended in setting up the system, and the kind of thing that exemplifies commercial use, but I agree with you they have seemed perfectly fine with it up until now.

************************ The above responses are @HyperspaceMountainPilot - I had to copy and paste to get all of it**************

Me:
I've stood back from this subject recently because of personal health issues that I am very recently dealing with.

I may have mentioned in the past that I have rented when life interfered one year. As far as I can easily determine it was 2011. What I didn't mention is that I put 6 reservations in place to take care of what I already had booked and the remaining points that may have gone to waste. And I received a Disney letter. I found that letter in my Disney cabinet very recently while looking for other stuff, like my contracts. Anyway I had no need or desire to rent since then so for me it was water under the bridge.

Fast forward to this month. Some health problems have arisen which leave future trips in doubt. I have trips in November, December, January and into early February. Hopefully I will personally use those points! And if I can't, perhaps my immediate family can. (DD is on all my contracts as an owner and can manage them if necessary.)

This leads me to realize that although I didn't set up my reservations as spec rentals, they could be viewed that way if they had to be rented. And, the December trip is still listed as individual days since I stalked after the fact to get BWV resort to replace garden/pool and BW view. My earlier and later rentals are booked as weeks with the last being a split stay.

This brings home to me that I really appreciate the ability to rent, just as I did in 2011. It also reaffirms that Disney DVC IS paying attention, whether we have proof or not. Well, maybe they've given a lot of leeway to former employees, but are now seeing the whole situation escalate further than they ever imagined due to changing times and opportunists. And lets face it they are just as hungry for $35 a point as anyone here. They don't rent out breakage at $10 a point (cost of dues and doing business) after all is said and done.

Meanwhile I have time hopefully and my wish is to travel starting in November for Food and Wine. I still think the right path is to abolish commercial renting and to figure out a way to block or slow down bot activity. But I understand that Disney DVC has to move somewhat slowly to prevent injuring parties and their guests that are using their contracts as intended.

 

[Sandisw]

You should be drinking and picking out your red outfit right now.

For sure! Such fun!!! Key Lime Mattinis are dangerous!! Hahahaha

 

[Sandisw]

I’m going to push back on this yet again. I can’t find a single direct quote where a board member says “it’s not a huge problem” or “widespread”. Can you? I’ve seen writers of articles say it, but nary a quote to be found. Happy to be wrong.

Not a common practice was officially quoted in the article. My notes I took that day at the SSR meeting I wrote not widespread.

Those of us there are reporting what actually was said and the article attributes the “not a common practice” quote to the board members.

They also stated it represents a small % of overall reservations that are walked.

Obviously people can choose to believe or not those of us in attendance who reported what was said and the articles that were posted about it.

They only discussed commercial renting in the light of large point owners and wanting to stop that. That was directly quoted.

So. I’ll push back against the notion that they even implied that changes were coming in any major way.

We certainly may see additional things. But, in 7 months, the only offical changes with proof are the check box language change and that the 2011 offical definition and policy of commercial purpose is still the offical policy.

Obviously, I have reported that I was officially told about the rent for dues…and others I know have…but you correct that part is not in writing.

 

[lowlight]

I don’t necessarily agree - if a member is lucky enough to book (for example) New Years Eve at 11 months out at BLT Theme Park view studio and then turn around and offer that 1 night booking for rent - In my opinion- that should Not automatically put them in the commercial renter category.

Is a merchandise reseller who scalps just enough limited edition pins and ears to pay for their AP not a commercial endeavor?

Only buying items rare/limited in quantity? Check.
Only buying items with intent to resell? Check.
Only buying items with highest ROI? Check.
Only buying items with high demand? Check.

This is why we will never come to a consensus, we can’t agree on personal use.

 

[Cyberc1978]

So far you appear to be correct, I am hoping the arrival of that box means one day you will be wrong, but for now, Disney is happy to let some members rent for max profit.

This is a false equivalence and not spec renting. Once again, (almost) nobody is objecting to occasionally renting a booked reservation, even at a prime time, because something comes up and you can’t take the vacation — but if you just can’t travel to your studio which you booked every other weekend of September every single year, it’s not not personal use.

I read this as trying to rationalize a selfish behavior because there are other hypothetical things that might also impact members’ ability to use the program.

I don’t think it’s productive for us to argue about whether or not it’s moral to pull rooms out of inventory to maximize your personal profit. I’m quite certain it’s not what Disney intended in setting up the system, and the kind of thing that exemplifies commercial use, but I agree with you they have seemed perfectly fine with it up until now.

To me spec renting is booking a 11 month reservation with the intention to put a renters name on the reservation. However it’s also spec renting booking 11 month reservation and then life happens (or call it what you want) and then you need to rent your reservation - end result is the same. An 11 month reservation is being rented.

You can’t setup rules which allows for one but not the other.

The DVC ecosystem is built and used as selfish behavior, it’s FCFS. If I don’t get a reservation then someone else does. Or just take the pool hoppers it was once allowed but not anymore but people does it any way. If a certain behavior is not allowed there should be rules and enforcement in place.

 

[Mouseforward]

That isn't a quote though, it's an inference. I'm not trying to be petty, it matters because that misquoted line has been repeated so often that it's taken on a life of its own when people try to characterize where DVC stands on the issue.

I would say 2 unrelated, independent people who were present at the meeting reporting it is enough. If you need more fly to Florida and go to the meetings and ask yourself.

 

[Mouseforward]

The DVC ecosystem is built and used as selfish behavior, it’s FCFS.

FCFS is not in its nature selfish it is essentially a contest to fairly allocate scarce resources.

 

[Brianstl]

Less than the MF for what…the points used? points in the contract? All the points in that UY? I personally don’t think charging $35. per point for a New Years Eve TPV BLT room would be unethical…hotels do it all the time!

Hotels are a commercial enterprise

 

[Tatebeck]

To me spec renting is booking a 11 month reservation with the intention to put a renters name on the reservation. However it’s also spec renting booking 11 month reservation and then life happens (or call it what you want) and then you need to rent your reservation - end result is the same. An 11 month reservation is being rented.

You can’t setup rules which allows for one but not the other.

The DVC ecosystem is built and used as selfish behavior, it’s FCFS. If I don’t get a reservation then someone else does. Or just take the pool hoppers it was once allowed but not anymore but people does it any way. If a certain behavior is not allowed there should be rules and enforcement in place.

Those scenarios actually aren't really the same thing, though I can see why to you they may appear to be. They are in fact different by the very definition of "speculative"

A speculative rental (aka spec rental) is a room that is booked solely with the intent to rent out and the room (type, date chosen, etc) is chosen specifically to maximize profits as its primary (and really only goal). This can easily and reasonably be seen to be commercial activity and be against the rules as written.

At the same time, members may wish to book that same exact room for their own vacations. Usually because it falls in a popular time and/or that room has a good point value. There will always be overlap like this. Down the road, if that member has something happen (injury, illness, job loss, etc) that prevents them from using that room, and then they decide to rent it out, that would be a confirmed reservation rental, but not a speculative rental. There was no upfront intent to maximize profits (aka speculation) if their original intent was to use the room. Even if they end up renting the room out in the end.

And there definitely are things they could do to combat the first one (speculative rentals) vs the second one (a normal member)

 

[Sandisw]

To me spec renting is booking a 11 month reservation with the intention to put a renters name on the reservation. However it’s also spec renting booking 11 month reservation and then life happens (or call it what you want) and then you need to rent your reservation - end result is the same. An 11 month reservation is being rented.

You can’t setup rules which allows for one but not the other.

The DVC ecosystem is built and used as selfish behavior, it’s FCFS. If I don’t get a reservation then someone else does. Or just take the pool hoppers it was once allowed but not anymore but people does it any way. If a certain behavior is not allowed there should be rules and enforcement in place.

This is why I will be surprised to see DVC set up rules or definitions to define commercial renting that narrowly.

 

[lowlight]

I would say 2 unrelated, independent people who were present at the meeting reporting it is enough. If you need more fly to Florida and go to the meetings and ask yourself.

I'm not sure why you're being rude, but it's not a quote. Period. And the paraphrasing that has been done to date has been grossly inaccurate, with personal interpretations inserted to reflect what they believe the intent of DVC actually is. Real deal, actual journalists mischaracterize and paraphrase people incorrectly on an hourly basis, so...