Commercial Sellers of DVC Points

[Jay Foster]

I understand that in the next 30-60 days we should see a significant reduction in the commercial sellers. Several commercial sellers have already been contacted by Disney and as Disney finds out about them, they will contact them. If what I am told is correct, I doubt seriously that the Borgias and Wechslers, etc. will be operating DVC as a business much past this time frame. This should free up some room in scheduling as Disney indicated that the commercial sellers had become a very large problem for them and for us.

Interestingly enough, I was advised that a resolution was passed by the Board in which someone making 20 reservations in different names in a 12 month period would essentially be a "red flag" to Disney and they would look into it if this happens (before you ask: I do not have a copy of the resolution). I was told that this is not to say they won't look into it if it is less than 20 (in other words, if you are commercially renting they intend to put a stop to it no matter how many reservations are made).

Again, I want to emphasize that this does not apply to you renting/giving points to your friends, family, etc. It is only to the commercial renters.

If you run across commercial sellers, I would suggest forwarding it to Disney to let them know who it is. They do have problems sometimes in connecting up the sellers of the DVC points and who the actual owner is so provide as much information as you can about the commercial seller.

 

[simzac]

Thanks for the update Jay.

 

[Y-ASK]

Cool! Thanks Jay for the info.

Y-ASK

 

[spiceycat]

who or what is Borgias and Wechslers - I don't think I ever heard of them?

 

[Y-ASK]

They're are a couple of families that were commerically renting DVC points. One was known as mushpurple and was shown to have two forum usernames. She actually answered her own questions posing as another forum member (maybe it was that she asked and then answered her own questions, I can't remember).

Link to thread: http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1197656

Y-ASK

 

[I'mNoPrince]

Thanks for the update.

But only time will tell I think at least it's being looked at as they tell us.

 

[dumbo71]

I understand that in the next 30-60 days we should see a significant reduction in the commercial sellers. Several commercial sellers have already been contacted by Disney and as Disney finds out about them, they will contact them. If what I am told is correct, I doubt seriously that the Borgias and Wechslers, etc. will be operating DVC as a business much past this time frame. This should free up some room in scheduling as Disney indicated that the commercial sellers had become a very large problem for them and for us.

Interestingly enough, I was advised that a resolution was passed by the Board in which someone making 20 reservations in different names in a 12 month period would essentially be a "red flag" to Disney and they would look into it if this happens (before you ask: I do not have a copy of the resolution). I was told that this is not to say they won't look into it if it is less than 20 (in other words, if you are commercially renting they intend to put a stop to it no matter how many reservations are made).

Again, I want to emphasize that this does not apply to you renting/giving points to your friends, family, etc. It is only to the commercial renters.

If you run across commercial sellers, I would suggest forwarding it to Disney to let them know who it is. They do have problems sometimes in connecting up the sellers of the DVC points and who the actual owner is so provide as much information as you can about the commercial seller.

Jay,

We had a verbal dispute of sorts in the past so I do not want to go there again. Your information seems on par with what I was told by DVC legal more or less.

I was just wondering what or who is your source? I'm not looking for names just a title or position.

Thank you.

 

[salmoneous]

Hmmm, commerical sellers being told to knock it off - possibly putting points up for sale.

Buying opportunity???

 

[3DisneyKids]

Thanks, Jay! And this time...(those of you know who you are)...Don't flame the messenger! Last time poor Jay posted news, he got blasted so badly that he left the DIS boards and we just got him back.

Yes, I would think that they will have to sell some contracts. Either that or transfer them into several different names (though some families have already done that), and then each name can rent out 20 different names and so on. It may not stop it completely, but it sure will make it more difficult for them!

 

[Beca]

Jay,

Thanks for posting, but I don't think the next 30-60 days is the big timeline. I heard about this from people who said letters actually started going out 3 months ago. Unfortunately, I was just not given permission to post the information. Dumbo...I cannot tell my sources either, but I can tell you that certified letters were sent out worded EXACTLY as Jay is telling.

Some of the people who have received letters are people who hold over 1,000 points. They are furious that DVC is placing a "limit" on the number of reservations they can hold in a year, without being subject to "possible cancellation". It doesn't seem fair that someone who has 50 points can make reservations without fear, but someone who owns THOUSANDS of points is subject to restrictions on how they can use those points. I know of one person who owns a company and uses his points (he owns over 3,000 points) to make "award" ressies for people in his company. He always books studios, and he is never on the reservation himself. He is actually thinking of going "toe to toe" on this with DVC. He never does transfers, and he has never "rented" his points, but he does make more than 20 ressies per year. He did receive a letter, and has already warned DVC that he will be taking legal action if ANY of his ressies are cancelled. His point is this....he is only using the points that are allocated to him each year by DVC, and he is not renting his points. It will be interesting to see what happens with him.

 

[dumbo71]

Dumbo...I cannot tell my sources either, but I can tell you that certified letters were sent out worded EXACTLY as Jay is telling. /QUOTE]


Beca,

I'm certainly not calling Jay a liar. In fact I've recieved a similiar letter from DVC. This is after being told by DVC legal that nothing I was doing was wrong or against the POS.

Oh well, a downsize later, all is well. I'd still like to know who Jay knows.

 

[3DisneyKids]

Beca--as your friend is not "renting for profit" he should clearly be OK. I think it will take DVC some time to sort out which of the "big owners" are commercial renters and which use it for purposes similar to your friend. I am quite sure, though, that instances such as your friend's are farily few and far between, while commerical renting/renting for profit is far more active.

 

[littlestar]

Beca--as your friend is not "renting for profit" he should clearly be OK. I think it will take DVC some time to sort out which of the "big owners" are commercial renters and which use it for purposes similar to your friend. I am quite sure, though, that instances such as your friend's are farily few and far between, while commerical renting/renting for profit is far more active.

I would think this could be sorted out pretty easily.

 

[Y-ASK]

Some of the people who have received letters are people who hold over 1,000 points. They are furious that DVC is placing a "limit" on the number of reservations they can hold in a year, without being subject to "possible cancellation". It doesn't seem fair that someone who has 50 points can make reservations without fear, but someone who owns THOUSANDS of points is subject to restrictions on how they can use those points.

Hold on now! Jay's information never stated that "someone who owns THOUSANDS of points is subject to restrictions". Let's not blow this out of proportion. Jay's information stated that "someone making 20 reservations in different names in a 12 month period would essentially be a "red flag" to Disney and they would look into it if this happens ". "Looked into" and "Subject to restrictuions" is two totally different points of view. Becca, unless you have specific information that you can tell us, (like maybe the wording of one of the letters sent from DVC) I would hold back on spreading rumors of "unfair restrictions". I'm sure your friend has a firm foundation to stand on if he is using the points for his employees or giving them away. If he's found to be renting them commerically in a business then all bets are off.

Y-ASK

 

[I'mNoPrince]

Yes I think most restrictions will come from where they are advertising .Be it E-bay or a web-page set up just for renting .People doing a lot of transfers and so forth.

The letters are sent to all that fit into that catagory ,as those found at fault can't claim they are being targeted.

Like Y-ASK stated the Looked into is the key to what will happen

 

[kdzgon]

Jay,

We had a verbal dispute of sorts in the past so I do not want to go there again. Your information seems on par with what I was told by DVC legal more or less.

I was just wondering what or who is your source? I'm not looking for names just a title or position.

Thank you.

I didn't know this was not more common knowledge. I am not yet an owner, but we are in the process of purchasing two contracts - both resale, but we were originally going to purchase direct and were assigned a guide. I had discussed the idea of renting out extra points if it turned out we purchased too many (yeah, yeah - I now know the lunacy of my thoughts, LOL). She did tell me essentially the same thing: Disney was in the process of contacting owners with excessive rental activity, and that rentals of 20 or more would be "looked at closely" to determine if indeed they were "in the business of renting points". She also told me they had identified some already and once notified, if they were to continue it would jeopardize their ownership rights, that Disney was cracking down on "abusive" rentals. So according to my guide, bottom line is 20 rentals will trigger attention and a closer look at a minimum. I did not ask for further details, so I don't know if she would have shared additional specifics.

 

[Jay Foster]

Jay,

We had a verbal dispute of sorts in the past so I do not want to go there again. Your information seems on par with what I was told by DVC legal more or less.

I was just wondering what or who is your source? I'm not looking for names just a title or position.

Thank you.

Hi,

I can tell you that if you or anyone else on this Board were to call or email them and complain about commercial renters you would get the same person that I got but since I did not ask if I could post their name, I would rather not. But, again, if you were to call, I'd bet that they would connect you to the same person. Unless I missed something in our conversation, I do not think it is any big secret as to what they are doing as they seem to want members to know that the commercial renting has to stop because it is causing problems.

I do think that they intend to put a stop to the Ebay, etc. blatant commercial renters as Y-Ask and I'mnoprince described. I think Y-Ask is correct about the red flag issue. If they look into it and find out it is not a commercial renting situation, I don't think it will be a problem. Whether the time frame of 30-60 days is correct or not, I don't know, but that is just what they told me. I do know that some letters went out already (of course, they will not say to who) and I think they intend to deal with each situation on a case-by-case basis as any business should.

Again, I do want to emphasize (again) that I only asked about commercial renters: people like the Borgias and Wechslers. Based on my understanding of what Disney is doing, it simply is not going to apply to people who are not commercial renters, so for the vast majority of people they are not going to have a problem.

 

[littlestar]

There was a commercial renter on Ebay a few months ago that had a LOT of Disney Interval International exchange rentals and Marriott Hawaii weeks for sale (it looked like thousands of dollars of inventory to me - I couldn't believe it when I saw it out there). But that auction was stopped a few days later when I went back to look at it. Really, all it would take would be for Interval, Disney, and Marriott to compare notes on Guest Certificates issued and they could figure out who was doing commercial rentals pretty easily after they check into it.

I know on our DVC account we have our daughters and son-in-laws listed as associate members. I'm sure if Disney sees check-ins where it's never the member/associate members and strange names and multiple reservations, that probably raises a red flag. In the case of a company using it to reward employees, it looks like that account could be set up with associate names to reflect that purpose some how.

To me, I don't see how Disney could just ignore the commercial renting because there is tax issues with that. I personally would not be very happy as a member if people running these rental businesses caused me to have to pay extra for occupancy taxes on already hefty dues, or my DVC resort got shut down for tax evasion.

 

[dumbo71]

There was a commercial renter on Ebay a few months ago that had a LOT of Disney Interval International exchange rentals and Marriott Hawaii weeks for sale (it looked like thousands of dollars of inventory to me - I couldn't believe it when I saw it out there). But that auction was stopped a few days later when I went back to look at it. Really, all it would take would be for Interval, Disney, and Marriott to compare notes on Guest Certificates issued and they could figure out who was doing commercial rentals pretty easily after they check into it.

I know on our DVC account we have our daughters and son-in-laws listed as associate members. I'm sure if Disney sees check-ins where it's never the member/associate members and strange names and multiple reservations, that probably raises a red flag. In the case of a company using it to reward employees, it looks like that account could be set up with associate names to reflect that purpose some how.

To me, I don't see how Disney could just ignore the commercial renting because there is tax issues with that. I personally would not be very happy as a member if people running these rental businesses caused me to have to pay extra for occupancy taxes on already hefty dues, or my DVC resort got shut down for tax evasion.

I wouldn't assume the renters aren't declaring the rental income. Many do and I certainly did when I rented. Greenban rents and I'm sure he declares as well.

DVC could care less about tax issues. It isn't there tax issues but the person doing the renting. The only thing they care about is there bottom line.

The rest of your post ITA.

 

[dumbo71]

Jay,

33 posts in a years time and most deal with commercial renting.

Everyone has there "hot topics", I certainly have mine but I can't help but wonder if you have been directly or indirectly affected by this.

Why is this your focus here on the Dis? Do you work for DVC and are coming here to scare a few renters?

Thank you.